Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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ZombieVito
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:06 pm

BagetaSama wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:05 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:56 am
BagetaSama wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:33 am
....Why would Vegeta be weaker than Golden Freeza?
Confirmed by official previews.
Okay what are you talking about? Care to link it or something?
Prior to Goku achieveing Ultra Instinct -Sign-, Frieza and Goku were tied for the No. 1 spot on Team Universe 7 in terms of power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:42 pm

Well even in Resurrection F it was implied that Goku was stronger than Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:01 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:06 pm
BagetaSama wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:05 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:56 am

Confirmed by official previews.
Okay what are you talking about? Care to link it or something?
Prior to Goku achieveing Ultra Instinct -Sign-, Frieza and Goku were tied for the No. 1 spot on Team Universe 7 in terms of power.
Not surprising. Since Golden Freeza and Blue Goku tucked each other in for bed before the TOP.
While Blue Vegeta fought a weaker Jiren than Blue Goku did in the TOP.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BagetaSama » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:41 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:06 pm
BagetaSama wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:05 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:56 am

Confirmed by official previews.
Okay what are you talking about? Care to link it or something?
Prior to Goku achieveing Ultra Instinct -Sign-, Frieza and Goku were tied for the No. 1 spot on Team Universe 7 in terms of power.
That's ridiculous. What is that from?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:34 pm

Well it does coincide with TOEI.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:09 am

While Vegeta went soft and looked over Bulma's pregnancy, Goku kept training for the ToP and catched up to Vegeta and surpassed him. The evidence of this is that Goku couldn't use SSBKK for more than a kick in an extreme situation vs Zamasu but by the ToP he can use it x20 without much trouble.

Obviously Vegeta can't compete with that, and so shouldn't Freeza, but apparently his golden form has always been a beast and he only needed to strenghten his mind or something like that. The only thing the show offers to support this, aside of that promo, is Golden Freeza with a single punch knocking the blue out of Goku before the ToP. A Goku with SSBKKx20 under his belt. So I guess that implies SSB Vegeta is below Shin Golden Freeza and SSB Goku.

It is still an assumption of mine that to have so much control over KK your SSB form has to become stronger on its own.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:14 am

Keep in mind that while Vegeta is weaker, the difference between them shouldn't be significant. At the lowest I would put him at a 9.5 to Goku and Freeza's 10.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:43 pm

Vegeta being weaker than freeza is nothing but head canon
The story never implied vegeta being inferior whatsoever nor freeza did anything to put him above the prince during the TOP

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:14 pm

Block88 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:43 pm
Vegeta being weaker than freeza is nothing but head canon
The story never implied vegeta being inferior whatsoever nor freeza did anything to put him above the prince during the TOP
That's not exactly correct.
We KNOW RoF Goku Blue was weaker than Freeza and only got the upper hand because Golden tired Freeza faster than expected.
If Vegeta was stronger than Goku enough to be stronger than Golden Freeza as well, no doubt we would have heard it. From Vegeta. Repeatedly.

It's therefore likely RoF Vegeta Blue, too, was weaker than RoF Golden Freeza.

That said, it's also not very realistic True Golden Freeza would still have been stronger than ToP Goku Blue or ToP Vegeta Blue, who got A LOT stronger since RoF, even without counting Kaiohken and Evolution.


Then again, Freeza going from less than a Super Saiyan to stronger than Blue in 4 months is not realistic....

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:22 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:06 pm
BagetaSama wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:05 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:56 am

Confirmed by official previews.
Okay what are you talking about? Care to link it or something?
Prior to Goku achieveing Ultra Instinct -Sign-, Frieza and Goku were tied for the No. 1 spot on Team Universe 7 in terms of power.
Using preview guides (which frequently get contradicted by the main source material afterwards) for info is silly. Post-Series Guides are the only reliable ones.

Plus, there's nothing in the series itself (either anime or manga), to suggest that ToP Freeza was anywhere near #1 strongest for U7.

In the anime, Freeza was shown to be at best equal to Normal SSB Goku at the start of the ToP while Goku had SSBKKx20. So there's no way Freeza and Goku were equals at any point of the ToP anime. Also, all of the Saiyans in the anime were stated and shown to be getting stronger as the ToP went on, even without getting new forms while Freeza was static in power throughout the ToP. Also, SSB Vegeta was able to semi-casually hold off Base Toppo (who forced Goku into using SSBKK in the preliminaries), plus he has SSBE (confirmed to be equal to SSBKKx20) so there's no way Freeza was at any point stronger than Vegeta in either version of the ToP.

There's no evidence for Freeza being stronger than Android 17 & Gohan either. They both have way better feats and statements than Freeza in both versions, like Anime Gohan being able to solo the 3 robot fusion from U3 (who Goku & Vegeta needed to team up against in SSB) and especially Manga Gohan being able to match SSJ1 Kefla while Manga Freeza was getting slapped around by merely SSJ1 Kale (not even Berserk Kale who CSSB Goku could hold his own against). Plus, A17 has feats like tanking hits that were meant for SSBKK Goku and SSBE Vegeta in the anime and Goku flat out stating that him and 17 are equals in power in the manga (its unclear if he was refering to in CSSB or MUI, either way it would imply that he's way above Golden Freeza).

The real U7 power ranking in the ToP anime would be this:
1. MUI Goku
2. SSBE Vegeta
3. 17
4. Ultimate Gohan
5. Golden Freeza

Switch Gohan and 17 around you'd have the manga ranking.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:29 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:09 am
While Vegeta went soft and looked over Bulma's pregnancy, Goku kept training for the ToP and catched up to Vegeta and surpassed him. The evidence of this is that Goku couldn't use SSBKK for more than a kick in an extreme situation vs Zamasu but by the ToP he can use it x20 without much trouble.

Obviously Vegeta can't compete with that, and so shouldn't Freeza, but apparently his golden form has always been a beast and he only needed to strenghten his mind or something like that. The only thing the show offers to support this, aside of that promo, is Golden Freeza with a single punch knocking the blue out of Goku before the ToP. A Goku with SSBKKx20 under his belt. So I guess that implies SSB Vegeta is below Shin Golden Freeza and SSB Goku.

It is still an assumption of mine that to have so much control over KK your SSB form has to become stronger on its own.
This is a weak argument, because it ignores facts like Vegeta also trained in the Time Room right before the ToP began (so he wasn't any weaker than before), and that Goku only needing normal SSB in his clash against Golden Freeza before the ToP.

Plus there's things like SSBKKx20 and SSBE being confirmed to be equal, which alone makes Freeza being tied for #1 impossible.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:34 pm

Miracles wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:01 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:06 pm
BagetaSama wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:05 am

Okay what are you talking about? Care to link it or something?
Prior to Goku achieveing Ultra Instinct -Sign-, Frieza and Goku were tied for the No. 1 spot on Team Universe 7 in terms of power.
Not surprising. Since Golden Freeza and Blue Goku tucked each other in for bed before the TOP.
While Blue Vegeta fought a weaker Jiren than Blue Goku did in the TOP.
This is false, because Herms said Jiren being weaker against Vegeta than he was against Goku in episode 109 was a mistranslation. What Vegeta was trying to say was something like "haha you were performing better against Kakarot", that's why Jiren got mad after he said that.

You also ignored Vegeta's training in the Rosat before the ToP started, while all Goku and Freeza did together was one short clash.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:24 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:34 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:01 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:06 pm

Not surprising. Since Golden Freeza and Blue Goku tucked each other in for bed before the TOP.
While Blue Vegeta fought a weaker Jiren than Blue Goku did in the TOP.
This is false, because Herms said Jiren being weaker against Vegeta than he was against Goku in episode 109 was a mistranslation. What Vegeta was trying to say was something like "haha you were performing better against Kakarot", that's why Jiren got mad after he said that.

You also ignored Vegeta's training in the Rosat before the ToP started, while all Goku and Freeza did together was one short clash.
Got a source for that bold?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:29 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:29 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:09 am
While Vegeta went soft and looked over Bulma's pregnancy, Goku kept training for the ToP and catched up to Vegeta and surpassed him. The evidence of this is that Goku couldn't use SSBKK for more than a kick in an extreme situation vs Zamasu but by the ToP he can use it x20 without much trouble.

Obviously Vegeta can't compete with that, and so shouldn't Freeza, but apparently his golden form has always been a beast and he only needed to strenghten his mind or something like that. The only thing the show offers to support this, aside of that promo, is Golden Freeza with a single punch knocking the blue out of Goku before the ToP. A Goku with SSBKKx20 under his belt. So I guess that implies SSB Vegeta is below Shin Golden Freeza and SSB Goku.

It is still an assumption of mine that to have so much control over KK your SSB form has to become stronger on its own.
This is a weak argument, because it ignores facts like Vegeta also trained in the Time Room right before the ToP began (so he wasn't any weaker than before), and that Goku only needing normal SSB in his clash against Golden Freeza before the ToP.

Plus there's things like SSBKKx20 and SSBE being confirmed to be equal, which alone makes Freeza being tied for #1 impossible.
I did not remember Vegeta going into the ROSAT, my bad, I might need a re-watch of those episodes. SSBE Vegeta showed up much later so if Freeza is above Vegeta is right before the ToP, definitely not during or after.

Goku and Freeza's clash though showed Freeza knocking the blue out of Goku but not viceversa.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:52 pm

The preview is before the actual ToP begins so it obviously doesn't take into account SSBE and it's fairly obvious it also doesn't take into account Kaioken. There's nothing in the ToP that disproves it as well.

There's nothing in the show itself that says that Toppo is stronger than Blue. Goku using Kaioken without a proper fight means nothing.

Also Gohan and 17 are weaker than Golden Freeza. It is straight up stated Blue Goku and Golden Freeza are equals and both Gohan and 17 aren't stronger than Blue Goku so there's no argument to be had.

P.S. I also would like to know if that Herms thing about Vegeta and Jiren is true.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:50 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:52 pm
The preview is before the actual ToP begins so it obviously doesn't take into account SSBE and it's fairly obvious it also doesn't take into account Kaioken. There's nothing in the ToP that disproves it as well.

There's nothing in the show itself that says that Toppo is stronger than Blue. Goku using Kaioken without a proper fight means nothing.

Also Gohan and 17 are weaker than Golden Freeza. It is straight up stated Blue Goku and Golden Freeza are equals and both Gohan and 17 aren't stronger than Blue Goku so there's no argument to be had.

P.S. I also would like to know if that Herms thing about Vegeta and Jiren is true.
There's a lot that disproves it. Goku only uses Kaioken when he absolutely needs to. Both Gohan and 17 proved that they are at least a little better than SSB Goku at the start of the ToP through their fights with Goku. Plus, Manga Gohan matching Kefla is better than anything Freeza did in either version of the ToP. And Base Toppo had both characters struggling against him. There's no evidence that Golden Freeza could beat Base Toppo from the anime.

Herms said that in an old tweet back in early 2018.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:52 am

Miracles wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:24 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:34 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:01 pm

Not surprising. Since Golden Freeza and Blue Goku tucked each other in for bed before the TOP.
While Blue Vegeta fought a weaker Jiren than Blue Goku did in the TOP.
This is false, because Herms said Jiren being weaker against Vegeta than he was against Goku in episode 109 was a mistranslation. What Vegeta was trying to say was something like "haha you were performing better against Kakarot", that's why Jiren got mad after he said that.

You also ignored Vegeta's training in the Rosat before the ToP started, while all Goku and Freeza did together was one short clash.
Got a source for that bold?
Its in an old tweet from January 2018

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:38 am

Whis said in Resurrection F that Vegeta was always Gokus lesser.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:09 pm

Toppo had a tougher time against SSB Goku's kamehameha than Gohan's. And when Gohan teamed up with 17 they were not even close to Toppo, who had an even fight with Vegeta and also with Goku, and both fought on their own.

That fake bout to fool Frost, implied Golden Freeza was no match for Gohan too.

The show is pretty straight forward about this.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:08 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:50 am
There's a lot that disproves it. Goku only uses Kaioken when he absolutely needs to. Both Gohan and 17 proved that they are at least a little better than SSB Goku at the start of the ToP through their fights with Goku. Plus, Manga Gohan matching Kefla is better than anything Freeza did in either version of the ToP. And Base Toppo had both characters struggling against him. There's no evidence that Golden Freeza could beat Base Toppo from the anime.

Herms said that in an old tweet back in early 2018.
This is nonsense. Gohan was said to rival Goku, not match or surpass him. 17 is around Gohan's level going by their fight with Toppo so both of them are weaker than Goku and by extention Freeza.

Manga Gohan was confirmed to still be Goku's lesser so by extention he is also inferior to Freeza.

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