Actually, there is one reasonable way for Muten Roshi to get to at least SSB Gogeta level...

[Psajdak]

They introduce new enemy who attacks Kame House, and that enemy is billion times more powerful than Daishinkan, from some erased universe that was brought back, or whatever.

But then Muten Roshi pauses his porn, and gets out, and beats the crap out of that invincible guy.

Everyone all over the universe felt that battle, and they are, like, what the fuck, what did you do?
How did you surpassed everyone in so short period of time, even Ultra Instict is nothing compared to your base!!!!!!

Muten Roshi: Well, participating in ToP kind of made me go back to training, so I just wore heavier turtle shell, spent more time delivering milk, and working in field, and there you have it.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

You joke but I think it would be pretty cool if the training styles of the Earth Martial Arts got a little more respect. Everyone is off training with Kaoi's and Hakaishin and alien mentors and I'd kill for something, excuse the pun, a bit more down to Earth.

[Polyphase Avatron]

More like the bad guy destroys his porn collection... not even both Zenos combined could stop him then.

[Psajdak]

You joke but I think it would be pretty cool if the training styles of the Earth Martial Arts got a little more respect. Everyone is off training with Kaoi's and Hakaishin and alien mentors and I'd kill for something, excuse the pun, a bit more down to Earth.

Well, to some degree I was serious too.

I mean, Dragon Ball series IS Toriyama's work - it wouldn't have been first time he raped logic, and left it half dead on the side of highway.

[Lionel]

You joke but I think it would be pretty cool if the training styles of the Earth Martial Arts got a little more respect. Everyone is off training with Kaoi's and Hakaishin and alien mentors and I'd kill for something, excuse the pun, a bit more down to Earth.

Admittedly, Whis's psychological conditioning philosophy, i.e Mushin, does tie in eloquently with the journey of martial arts. I do agree that Earth's MAs should be given some more limelight and recognition, though. Goku started from there and it's where he got his self-admitted "Kung-Fu" from. If the series tried to explore a more technical side of fighting then we could probably see these moves in action and how they measure up to the abstract "alien fighting style" that characters like Vegeta and so many others appear to use.

[theherodjl]

Admittedly, Whis's psychological conditioning philosophy, i.e Mushin, does tie in eloquently with the journey of martial arts. I do agree that Earth's MAs should be given some more limelight and recognition, though. Goku started from there and it's where he got his self-admitted "Kung-Fu" from. If the series tried to explore a more technical side of fighting then we could probably see these moves in action and how they measure up to the abstract "alien fighting style" that characters like Vegeta and so many others appear to use.

Its possible that "martial arts" in DB's reality are all merged into a hybrid style that much like language, is programmed by higher beings to be universal among the various races & species that comprehend hand-to-hand combat. The Angels, Hakaishin, and Kaioshin all use either the same or a highly-similar fighting style thus all of the lower/other beings simply copy it. The only difference is that Earthlings label the general concept of fighting as "martial arts" that includes names & concepts from Earth to make it more relatable to Earthlings.
I remember that way back in early DB, a few different real-world styles of martial arts(Kung Fu, Kenpo) were mentioned but little of such forms were actually demonstrated faithfully to their real-world counterparts and just ended up looking like DB's stereotypical form of fighting. That's because fighting in DB is not differentiated by hand-to-hand techniques but by how they mix it up with Ki blasts and how much more cleverly they may fight.
Its slightly disappointing but ultimately, combat in DB is determined more by power levels and less by actual fighting styles.

[Lionel]

Admittedly, Whis's psychological conditioning philosophy, i.e Mushin, does tie in eloquently with the journey of martial arts. I do agree that Earth's MAs should be given some more limelight and recognition, though. Goku started from there and it's where he got his self-admitted "Kung-Fu" from. If the series tried to explore a more technical side of fighting then we could probably see these moves in action and how they measure up to the abstract "alien fighting style" that characters like Vegeta and so many others appear to use.

Its possible that "martial arts" in DB's reality are all merged into a hybrid style that much like language, is programmed by higher beings to be universal among the various races & species that comprehend hand-to-hand combat. The Angels, Hakaishin, and Kaioshin all use either the same or a highly-similar fighting style thus all of the lower/other beings simply copy it. The only difference is that Earthlings label the general concept of fighting as "martial arts" that includes names & concepts from Earth to make it more relatable to Earthlings.
I remember that way back in early DB, a few different real-world styles of martial arts(Kung Fu, Kenpo) were mentioned but little of such forms were actually demonstrated faithfully to their real-world counterparts and just ended up looking like DB's stereotypical form of fighting. That's because fighting in DB is not differentiated by hand-to-hand techniques but by how they mix it up with Ki blasts and how much more cleverly they may fight.
Its slightly disappointing but ultimately, combat in DB is determined more by power levels and less by actual fighting styles.

True. The fighting is so homogenised in Dragon Ball that it's like anything that doesn't follow the generic form is an outlier. Some defying moments have been presented here and there like Jackie Chun's Drunken Fist, Hit's Wing Chun (anime exclusive), and Toppo with his joint locks (anime exclusive). It's not nearly enough though and their consequentiality does really matter. Now if, say, Hit was able to incapacitate a stronger opponent by sharply jabbing their carotid artery then it might have some weight to back up its presentation.

When it comes to power levels, Toriyama isn't even all that imaginative in that area. Up until recently he just used a simplistic formula of stacking transformation after transformation upon each other in order to give his two leads the leg-up they needed to emerge victorious. It's not to say that handing out Kaioken or Elder Kaioshin's potential unlocks would have really shaken things up but it could have offered something else to make the progression a bit less generic. Plus, the anime had created some possibly worthwhile tools like the Namekian Book of Legends but it never went anywhere.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I don't really expect DB to accurately depict real world martial arts. That's a lot of work with very little pay off on their end. Even mangas that revolve around specific martial arts (for example, Hajime no Ippo) took a significant amount of time before the artwork started to actually look like the real thing. An artist really has to fall in love with the martial art in order to become consistently good at telling stories about it.

So I'm ok with the styles and schools in DB being very vague. I just want Earth to get some in story recognition whether that's by "Earth martial arts" being depicting as formidable or Earth's masters being placed on par with the masters of other worlds.

When it comes to power levels, Toriyama isn't even all that imaginative in that area. Up until recently he just used a simplistic formula of stacking transformation after transformation upon each other in order to give his two leads the leg-up they needed to emerge victorious. It's not to say that handing out Kaioken or Elder Kaioshin's potential unlocks would have really shaken things up but it could have offered something else to make the progression a bit less generic. Plus, the anime had created some possibly worthwhile tools like the Namekian Book of Legends but it never went anywhere.

Power levels are an issue, yeah, but I think the scaling feels worse than it really is because everyone fights the same. With nothing about each individual standing out the viewer really only has power to fall back on to distinguish them.

And that ends up feeding back into the power level problem. If everyone fights the same then there's only really one way for them to improve. Whereas if each fighter had something special or unique to work with you could make the character "stronger" without having to increase their ki or whatever. It'd even create a blue print for how fights can play out.

Krillin was arguably the ideal fighter to do this with. His kienzan has a unique look and effect. (We even got to see it wound Freeza.) There was also that attack he used to finish off all the saibamen back in the Saiyan Arc. So much to work with but that's a different topic.

[Lionel]

When it comes to power levels, Toriyama isn't even all that imaginative in that area. Up until recently he just used a simplistic formula of stacking transformation after transformation upon each other in order to give his two leads the leg-up they needed to emerge victorious. It's not to say that handing out Kaioken or Elder Kaioshin's potential unlocks would have really shaken things up but it could have offered something else to make the progression a bit less generic. Plus, the anime had created some possibly worthwhile tools like the Namekian Book of Legends but it never went anywhere.

Power levels are an issue, yeah, but I think the scaling feels worse than it really is because everyone fights the same. With nothing about each individual standing out the viewer really only has power to fall back on to distinguish them.

And that ends up feeding back into the power level problem. If everyone fights the same then there's only really one way for them to improve. Whereas if each fighter had something special or unique to work with you could make the character "stronger" without having to increase their ki or whatever. It'd even create a blue print for how fights can play out.

Krillin was arguably the ideal fighter to do this with. His kienzan has a unique look and effect. (We even got to see it wound Freeza.) There was also that attack he used to finish off all the saibamen back in the Saiyan Arc. So much to work with but that's a different topic.

Toriyama's early work in the first two tournaments might have best demonstrated that process actually. You had oddities like Bacterian, Ranfan, and Man-Wolf with their unique fighting styles and abilities to distinguish them. The title matches both came with their plethora of unique powers as well. Jackie Chun had the Thunder Shock Surprise, hypnosis, and Drunken Fist. Tenshinhan boasted his unique powers in the form of the Kikoho and Four-Witches technique.

What's ironic is that several of those abilities could have usurped the "power is everything" trope. For example, Goku couldn't overcome the hypnosis on his own -- he needed the stimulation of Bulma's offer of food to awaken him. Another is Ranfan. It's quite possible Jackie Chun may have lost to Ranfan because of the exploitation of her figure overwhelming him.

If Toriyama isn't going to bother with technical martial arts then he could at least stand to make the fights more dynamic with the principles he's used before. Generic ki blasts and high intensity explosions becomes monotonous and bland after awhile.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Toriyama's early work in the first two tournaments might have best demonstrated that process actually. You had oddities like Bacterian, Ranfan, and Man-Wolf with their unique fighting styles and abilities to distinguish them. The title matches both came with their plethora of unique powers as well. Jackie Chun had the Thunder Shock Surprise, hypnosis, and Drunken Fist. Tenshinhan boasted his unique powers in the form of the Kikoho and Four-Witches technique.

What's ironic is that several of those abilities could have usurped the "power is everything" trope. For example, Goku couldn't overcome the hypnosis on his own -- he needed the stimulation of Bulma's offer of food to awaken him. Another is Ranfan. It's quite possible Jackie Chun may have lost to Ranfan because of the exploitation of her figure overwhelming him.

If Toriyama isn't going to bother with technical martial arts then he could at least stand to make the fights more dynamic with the principles he's used before. Generic ki blasts and high intensity explosions becomes monotonous and bland after awhile.

There have been flashes here and there of 22nd Budokai style fights. During their fight during the Buu Arc, Majin Vegeta temporarily pins Goku in place with ki rings. The Cell Games had Goku's Instant Kamehaha that blew off Cell's upper body. But it's never more than brief bits of fight choreography and the combos/technique is always forgotten buy the time the next fight starts.

[Lionel]

Toriyama's early work in the first two tournaments might have best demonstrated that process actually. You had oddities like Bacterian, Ranfan, and Man-Wolf with their unique fighting styles and abilities to distinguish them. The title matches both came with their plethora of unique powers as well. Jackie Chun had the Thunder Shock Surprise, hypnosis, and Drunken Fist. Tenshinhan boasted his unique powers in the form of the Kikoho and Four-Witches technique.

What's ironic is that several of those abilities could have usurped the "power is everything" trope. For example, Goku couldn't overcome the hypnosis on his own -- he needed the stimulation of Bulma's offer of food to awaken him. Another is Ranfan. It's quite possible Jackie Chun may have lost to Ranfan because of the exploitation of her figure overwhelming him.

If Toriyama isn't going to bother with technical martial arts then he could at least stand to make the fights more dynamic with the principles he's used before. Generic ki blasts and high intensity explosions becomes monotonous and bland after awhile.

There have been flashes here and there of 22nd Budokai style fights. During their fight during the Buu Arc, Majin Vegeta temporarily pins Goku in place with ki rings. The Cell Games had Goku's Instant Kamehaha that blew off Cell's upper body. But it's never more than brief bits of fight choreography and the combos/technique is always forgotten buy the time the next fight starts.

Doesn't sound too promising if it's used as momentary "highs" of action instead of the modus operandi of the fight throughout the execution.

I appreciate what the current arc is doing in its efforts to break mould somehow but it still feels limited if that makes sense. We need more fights with convention defying mechanics like the Guldo and Botamo battles. In the process they could stand to elaborate on them more and make the opponents more competent and less like episode-padding side-show curiosities.