"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:13 am

omaro34 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:46 pm
I had to do a double take when I saw this chapter...Yamcha fighting again?

I never cared for Chiautzo, but Yamcha getting some action was surprisingly pleasant.

I was hoping Piccolo got his own fight, frustrating that he's always linked to Gohan.

17 and 18 made a badass entrance. Buu still sleeping is getting old and annoying.

Never cared much for Goten since he's really just a bland kid that is a carbon copy of his dad at the same age, but they should really give him and Trunks some action. Whatever happened to depending on them back in the Buu arc?

Overall pretty good chapter.
Believe it not I actually enjoyed Piccolo and Gohan this time. It's not finished yet so there is still time for a Piccolo solo fight. There is still Saganbo left or if we are lucky maybe even Moro. They can show off their training even more.

Yamcha and Chiaotzu are fighting again so even I cant complain about this chapter! My favourite chapter so far.

Trunks and Goten are just simply done.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by YuseiFudou » Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:41 am

This shot right here, I love it so much.
Image

So good to see Z-Warriors back in action again!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:18 am

YuseiFudou wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:41 am
This shot right here, I love it so much.
Image

So good to see Z-Warriors back in action again!
That is the Dragon Ball people want. Hopefully it is even better when animated.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:23 am

I have no strong feelings about the chapter one way or the other. The final 2 pages (but more so the final page) are more interesting and fun than the previous 40something.
YuseiFudou wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:41 am
This shot right here, I love it so much.
Image

So good to see Z-Warriors back in action again!
Personally, I don't care for it.

It's been, what, 30 years since the Nappa fight but nobody looks any older. There's no progression. We're constantly stuck in this bubble of nostalgia that never gets popped. Time cannot move and there can be no development because then the iconic images can't be re-sold to us.

How many more "The Gang Gets Back Together" moments do we need? Resurrection F was the perfect last hurrah for them, but here we are in 2020, 2 more hurrahs later.

Let the characters develop and change in meaningful ways, or shelf them.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by caire » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:02 am

batistabus wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:18 pm

Strong opening. Three and a half pages without talking that somehow managed to set the stage, build drama, and get a solid laugh out of me. The character acting here was really impressive, and I think it speaks to Toyotaro's ability as a comic artist.
That was one of my favourite things about this chapter. He managed to convey Jaco's character perfectly in those few panels, and the lack of (usually unnecessary) expository dialogue was very effective in still lending weight to the opening.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:57 am

TKA wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:23 am
I have no strong feelings about the chapter one way or the other. The final 2 pages (but more so the final page) are more interesting and fun than the previous 40something.
YuseiFudou wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:41 am
This shot right here, I love it so much.
Image

So good to see Z-Warriors back in action again!
Personally, I don't care for it.

It's been, what, 30 years since the Nappa fight but nobody looks any older. There's no progression. We're constantly stuck in this bubble of nostalgia that never gets popped. Time cannot move and there can be no development because then the iconic images can't be re-sold to us.

How many more "The Gang Gets Back Together" moments do we need? Resurrection F was the perfect last hurrah for them, but here we are in 2020, 2 more hurrahs later.

Let the characters develop and change in meaningful ways, or shelf them.

I mean think you can argue that this is the same for Dragon Ball in general. Goku and Vegeta haven’t changed in any meaningful way well except Vegeta is good now.

Freeza was brought back to life but he’s the same ol Freeza


I’ll admit 17 is quite different to how he was in Z but personally I don’t feel his character development was earned as it happened all off screen and there is nothing deep about his characterization.

This is a fundamental problem with the series not specifically this chapter and how modern Dragon Ball is being handled. Personally while I enjoy the nostalgia and just spending time with these characters I agree keeping them in a stand still or this time bubble means modern Dragon Ball lacks any meaningful depth.


It’s not even that I am saying the series is trash as it’s still mostly fun and just having it back makes me happy. In fact I think some of the critics against Super (manga and anime) are too harsh but certainly the series could be so much better than what it is.

Sorry for that long rant

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dragonballhero » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:11 am

YuseiFudou wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:41 am
This shot right here, I love it so much.
Image

So good to see Z-Warriors back in action again!
While the fact that Yamcha and Chiaotzu getting a chance to return to the front lines, as well as Yamcha NOT suddenly screwing up and needing the others to bail him out easily made this chapter for me, I just don't think I'll be able to get over how Goten and Trunks (and I guess Yajirobe) aren't here with them in this opening shot.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:23 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:57 am
It’s not even that I am saying the series is trash as it’s still mostly fun and just having it back makes me happy. In fact I think some of the critics against Super (manga and anime) are too harsh but certainly the series could be so much better than what it is.

Sorry for that long rant
Nah, I disagree.

Vegeta and Goku have developed a lot over Super's run. Goku especially during the Tournament of Power.

I can't speak for the anime, since that is absolute garbage that descends into nostalgia as its average state.

Toyotaro is generally good about not going hard on the nostalgiafest and putting out content that makes sense and respects the characters. This doesn't make sense and feels like it's just throwing a bone to the (in my opinion) misguided fans who just want to see the Earth Squad kicking ass in pointless fights that don't add anything. This is a story, not a video game.

But yes, Dragonball, like many long-standing franchises, is miring in "anniversary culture". That is, constantly referencing the past because it has no substance by itself. The only time this franchise is interesting is whenever Toriyama picks up a pen and starts a new story. This arc started bad, got good, then became this slow, plodding "just okay" thing, and I'm willing to bet that's because Toyotaro is the one writing the majority of it.

I mean, it's still better than everything Toei does without Toriyama's involvement, but that's not a very high bar to clear.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:36 pm

It has to be the best chapter of Super for me. This isn't saying much of course, the FT arc took god-awful decisions and the ToP well, let's just forget that tournament in this medium. But this arc is clearly a step up in every direction, and this chapter has so much fan-service that is fan-service due to natural progression and not fan-service like entering Vegito Blue just because and make him as useless as a starting letter H in spanish.

The Earth's showdown called for what happened, it gave them time to be real contenders when the enemies arrived, and they were. Yamcha is not a beast or doing unexplainable stuff that contradicts the past 20 in-universe years like Roshi UI-ing Jiren(dear god). He is just a really strong earthling that has trained a lot and is too much for a group of Moro's henchmen. And Jaco treating them like the new guys was great.

Gohan and Piccolo looking like idiots when 7-3 got them and then proving all of us wrong and being already prepared for the guy's hax. Teamwork vs power, take that Jiren. And the androids coming to save the day was fantastic. Even the dynamic between them is great, 17 has come a long way since the android arc, from thieve to just guarding an island and nothing more to defending Earth and calling out his sister for behaving like a mercenary.
I loved Vegeta not giving up on the technique and trying to learn it until the very last second, and Goku's gag works great.
Like someone else said, this is what I wanted RoF to be like. It reminded me of Endgame too, with the galactic patrol sending their troops to aid the Z-senshi.
Yes, I too missed Goten and Trunks, but I prefer they are not here now and come back later looking like teenagers. If we were to have them now they would still look like babies. Maybe there is a long hiatus next.

Playing DBZ:K I was thinking Chaozu could've offered so much. His telekinesis, if exploited and trained of course, would've been a great asset for the team. Seeing him in this chapter gave me hope about his character. Yeah, Toriyama shit on all of them 25 years ago and probably bringing them back could be considered weird, but if Roshi can UI Jiren, then this guys can at least defend Earth from galactic fodder.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:13 pm

Fan service has no value.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:14 pm

I can understand why some fans would be aversive towards the idea of the human fighters getting dusted off and thrown back out there. Most of them have been in retirement for years now. Anything they can do is performable by characters like Goten and Trunks. But having said that, it's probably for that very reason that they may have been brought back. They could have stuck to the Buu arc roster and built it up from there but what all would it mean for the current arcs? To me, it would just be a repetitive line-up of tricho-chameleons fighting more or less the same than usual. You might as well just look to GT for inspiration in that case.

Now if only Toriyama and his protege would offer some long term development for them. You do have some personalities there that are ripe for exploration and growth. I think I mentioned before that with Tenshinhan, for example, his remorse over the sordid nature of the Crane banner and a desire to redeem it while working to increase its prestige could make for a good platform to launch his own sub-plot on; could also tie into his discontentment about being dependent on the likes of Vegeta and Piccolo for security (if that's even still a concern for him at this point).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:48 pm

At the very least with the number of fighters and having them spread out around the globe I think it makes sense to have as many of the Earth Warriors (alien or otherwise) fight. So I don’t think having the human fighters fight here feels out of place and if it makes fans happy I don’t see a problem with it. Although Goten and Trunks (two of their strongest fighters) watching animals instead of helping doesn’t make logical sense.


Looking back though I am not seeing the benefit of Moro’s 3rd wish. At the time it threw Goku and Vegeta a bit off balance but I wish after more that build up we got something better than Moro wishes for fodder to be released. I am not really seeing how this is ultimately going to help him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:53 pm

Despite feeling mostly positive about this chapter and the arc in general, I agree with everything TKA has said on the matter. For me, there's enough to keep me happy despite the issues. Toyotaro is working in a very tight box in terms of what he can do, how long he has to do it, what he can change, how many pages he can use, how this has to match up with the next Toriyama movie, how to balance the needs of V-Jump and Shueisha, how to live up to fan expectations, etc. All that considered, which is a lot to consider when compared to how free the original run felt, I think things are going about as well as they can. I'm still enjoying the ride.
Kinokima wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:48 pm
Looking back though I am not seeing the benefit of Moro’s 3rd wish. At the time it threw Goku and Vegeta a bit off balance but I wish after more that build up we got something better than Moro wishes for fodder to be released. I am not really seeing how this is ultimately going to help him.
Without the prisoners showing up, Goku, Vegeta, and Merus thought that they had Moro cornered. When the prisoners joined the fray, enhanced by Moro's ability, the Saiyans were drained and ultimately unsuccessful. Aside from escaping Namek, the prisoners have knowledge of the modern universe and can scout out promising planets for Moro to eat. Despite not caring for individuals, Moro understands the benefits of teamwork.

Also...Moro doesn't seem to be able to pilot a ship...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by precita » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:18 pm

Why are people excited for this? Have people forgotten how he handled the cast in the tournament of power?

Krillin does nothing and flies off stage. Tenshinhan is defeated even worse than the anime. Piccolo and 18 barely do anything in the manga. Gohan’s fight with Kefla is almost entirely off panel. Roshi then dodges Jiren’s attacks.

Almost all these human characters will either be knocked out in 2 pages or defeated off panel.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:24 pm

batistabus wrote: Without the prisoners showing up, Goku, Vegeta, and Merus thought that they had Moro cornered. When the prisoners joined the fray, enhanced by Moro's ability, the Saiyans were drained and ultimately unsuccessful. Aside from escaping Namek, the prisoners have knowledge of the modern universe and can scout out promising planets for Moro to eat. Despite not caring for individuals, Moro understands the benefits of teamwork.

Also...Moro doesn't seem to be able to pilot a ship...

I get what the wish was for but that’s my point it only helped him against Goku and Vegeta momentarily. If the wish had far reaching consequences it would have been more compelling. And certainly the wish was built up as something way more than it was.


Hell even if instead of every prisoner released he only released some powerful allies of his that actually felt like a real threat would have been better than just a lot of fodder.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:08 pm

TKA wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:23 pm
Kinokima wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:57 am
It’s not even that I am saying the series is trash as it’s still mostly fun and just having it back makes me happy. In fact I think some of the critics against Super (manga and anime) are too harsh but certainly the series could be so much better than what it is.

Sorry for that long rant
Nah, I disagree.

Vegeta and Goku have developed a lot over Super's run. Goku especially during the Tournament of Power.
No they have not and Vegeta's been stuck in the same character arc since Cell.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:21 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:24 pm
I get what the wish was for but that’s my point it only helped him against Goku and Vegeta momentarily. If the wish had far reaching consequences it would have been more compelling. And certainly the wish was built up as something way more than it was.

Hell even if instead of every prisoner released he only released some powerful allies of his that actually felt like a real threat would have been better than just a lot of fodder.
Well it was a short-term decision. He originally told Cranberi that he only needed one wish. He took advantage of the opportunity to increase his chances of escaping a situation he never expected when seeking the Dragon Balls (Goku and Vegeta).

Perhaps there is a better wish, but this one has served him well enough.
precita wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:18 pm
Krillin does nothing and flies off stage. Tenshinhan is defeated even worse than the anime. Piccolo and 18 barely do anything in the manga. Gohan’s fight with Kefla is almost entirely off panel. Roshi then dodges Jiren’s attacks.
Plenty of us here view these things as positives...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:38 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:08 pm
TKA wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:23 pm
Kinokima wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:57 am
It’s not even that I am saying the series is trash as it’s still mostly fun and just having it back makes me happy. In fact I think some of the critics against Super (manga and anime) are too harsh but certainly the series could be so much better than what it is.

Sorry for that long rant
Nah, I disagree.

Vegeta and Goku have developed a lot over Super's run. Goku especially during the Tournament of Power.
No they have not and Vegeta's been stuck in the same character arc since Cell.

Vegeta has not been trapped in the same character arc since the Cell arc. I am so so tired of people saying this. It’s complete nonsense.

Yeah Cell arc Vegeta where he didn’t care when his family almost died, punched Trunks so he wouldn’t stop the Androids from being born, and let Cell become Perfect for a Good Fight and didn’t care what happened to the Earth.


If you are going to try to tell me because god forbid Vegeta still wants to do the “evil thing” of surpassing Goku (which apparently means he is Cell arc Vegeta) This seems to be the biggest crime to some people and I don’t understand why. No where in the Buu saga did Vegeta even say he was going to stop wanting to surpass Goku.


In this arc we have Vegeta showing remorse for what he did to the Namekians, wanting to protect their world, and also going to Yadrat to find a new way to beat Moro (even though he prefers the Saiyan way) but apparently that is the same thing they did in the Cell and Buu arc. :roll:


I don’t think Vegeta is written perfectly at all times and I do get annoyed when they exaggerate him being a jerk (though the anime is worse at this) but I’m also tired of the fandom saying he is just like he was in the Cell arc which isn’t true at all.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:44 pm

When you have an author who seems deadset on narrationally expounding for just two characters, a lot of the fans start to take notice when someone who isn't said two characters is not languishing in the background as an art accessory. It's been the "Adventures of Goku & Vegeta" show since ROF. Most of the time the story is dedicated to them. Is it right to centre the lens exclusively on them? In general, yes, but they shouldn't be serviced as the end-all-be-all for battle based entertainment in the show. There should be some breathing room afforded to the reader by offering other beloved characters a chance to be involved. Who knows how long it will be before they get another opportunity to fight.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:56 pm

Nice chapter. Not one of my favorites, but it had some interesting bits and I was happy to see Yamcha back to fighting. I guess it makes sense to involve him and Chaozu considering the threat Moro and the convicts pose. Although it’s weird that the Earth warriors are basically physically unchanged from the Saiyan arc days. I would have loved to see them with a wrinkle, commenting how even though they are getting older they can still kick some ass. Could have been a nice last hurrah for them.

I was disappointed to see the kids being sidelined once again. But the trade-off of having 17 fight kinda made up for their absence.
It seems like they really don’t want the absurdly talented next generation to help them... meanwhile they had no problems with Gohan helping and saving the world when he was much younger. Oh but Goku and Vegeta are coming...
I still hope the kids will get to do something.

It’s pretty much a transitional chapter, and I hope things get more interesting in he next one because right now this feels very fillerish. I wouldn’t mind the Earthlings fights being off-screened or solved in 1-2 panels (like Tenshinan’s in this chapter).
I want to see the main dish, and at best Saganbo too. Too many grunts to beat is uninteresting to see, especially with the main foe being right there.
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