Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:42 pm

Ryuji-Otogi wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:54 pm
If you literally feel guilty for watching Yamamoto Kai and enjoying it, you seriously need to lighten up. We should definitely be understanding of why the decision to scrap Yamamoto was made. Plagiarism is wrong and it’s appropriate that there were consequences for it in the case of Dragon Ball Kai. But all that stuff has nothing to do with which version of the show is better to watch. If you sit someone down and ask them to watch Kikuchi Kai and compare it to Yamamoto Kai, without telling them that one was plagiarized while the other wasn’t, then the opinion that person forms is the one that matters in terms of which product is superior. The thread poses the question “Do you like Kikuchi Kai”, it doesn’t ask about outside influences on the art medium itself. For instance, if someone asks me which movie is better, really crappy movie versus really good movie, then I’m going to answer that the really good movie is better. Maybe the crappy movie was made by someone with my same religious and political beliefs, and maybe the really good movie is made by someone whose worldview is diametrically opposed to my own. Those things that have nothing to do with the quality of the works of art themselves will have no influence on which movie I think is better. That’s silly.
Guilty? No.

But the work is bad faith plagiarism, so I can't in good conscience listen to it. It's not about religious beliefs of the creator or anything like that. The work itself is inherently stolen. It's more like if there was a video game made with artwork stolen from other artists who were never paid for their work.

It's not just something you can dismiss with death of the author, it's an inherent, core fact of the actual work itself.
And yes, if we could dismiss our knowledge of the wrong that Yamamoto did, the Yamamoto music would generally come out better. But we know about the plagiarism. We can't just dismiss something we know. And even if we could, I'm not sure I would. Putting yourself under illusions, under convenient lies, isn't a healthy way to live. Even if it's relating to the preferred score of a kids' cartoon.

I know some people can put up with the Yamamoto score, and y'know what, if you can do that, whatever. Enjoy it. But I can't. To me, it's stolen art, and I can't enjoy it. Simple as that.
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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:37 am

Kikuchi's music should have been in Kai since day one. Watching a remaster of DBZ without the original music feels odd. It would be like if the Star Wars special editions had none of the original music, and they hire Hans Zimmer to do a new music score replacement instead.
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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:09 pm

Ryuji-Otogi wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:54 pm
For instance, if someone asks me which movie is better, really crappy movie versus really good movie, then I’m going to answer that the really good movie is better. Maybe the crappy movie was made by someone with my same religious and political beliefs, and maybe the really good movie is made by someone whose worldview is diametrically opposed to my own. Those things that have nothing to do with the quality of the works of art themselves will have no influence on which movie I think is better. That’s silly.
I’m all for separating art from the artist (but even I have my limits I refuse to watch Jeepers Creepers because of the director’s history) but this isn’t about Yamamoto as a person this is about his work being plagiarism.

“I can respect the quality of the art and not respect the artist” doesn’t apply to Yamamoto Kai discourse because that would suggest plagiarism is art.

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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by Ryuji-Otogi » Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:25 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:09 pm
Ryuji-Otogi wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:54 pm
For instance, if someone asks me which movie is better, really crappy movie versus really good movie, then I’m going to answer that the really good movie is better. Maybe the crappy movie was made by someone with my same religious and political beliefs, and maybe the really good movie is made by someone whose worldview is diametrically opposed to my own. Those things that have nothing to do with the quality of the works of art themselves will have no influence on which movie I think is better. That’s silly.
I’m all for separating art from the artist (but even I have my limits I refuse to watch Jeepers Creepers because of the director’s history) but this isn’t about Yamamoto as a person this is about his work being plagiarism.

“I can respect the quality of the art and not respect the artist” doesn’t apply to Yamamoto Kai discourse because that would suggest plagiarism is art.
I’m just saying, if someone asks me which I prefer (Yamamoto Kai vs Kikuchi Kai), I’m gonna say Yamamoto Kai, because I enjoy it more. Simple as that. 🤷🏻‍♂️ I think it’s a shame that he plagiarized. He’s pretty much the reason we have this fiasco with the Kai music. I don’t think very highly of him. If I could own the entirety of Kai with his music though, I would.

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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:20 pm

Ryuji-Otogi wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:25 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:09 pm
Ryuji-Otogi wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:54 pm
For instance, if someone asks me which movie is better, really crappy movie versus really good movie, then I’m going to answer that the really good movie is better. Maybe the crappy movie was made by someone with my same religious and political beliefs, and maybe the really good movie is made by someone whose worldview is diametrically opposed to my own. Those things that have nothing to do with the quality of the works of art themselves will have no influence on which movie I think is better. That’s silly.
I’m all for separating art from the artist (but even I have my limits I refuse to watch Jeepers Creepers because of the director’s history) but this isn’t about Yamamoto as a person this is about his work being plagiarism.

“I can respect the quality of the art and not respect the artist” doesn’t apply to Yamamoto Kai discourse because that would suggest plagiarism is art.
I’m just saying, if someone asks me which I prefer (Yamamoto Kai vs Kikuchi Kai), I’m gonna say Yamamoto Kai, because I enjoy it more. Simple as that. 🤷🏻‍♂️ I think it’s a shame that he plagiarized. He’s pretty much the reason we have this fiasco with the Kai music. I don’t think very highly of him. If I could own the entirety of Kai with his music though, I would.
Let me put it this way: A lot of people don't read H.P. Lovecraft's work, not because he was racist, but because that racism permeates his work. It's full of racist stuff. Everywhere. It's not just art and artist stuff, it's 100% in the work, it's right there. Unavoidable.

Plagiarism isn't racism, but that isn't the point, that was never the point, and I would appreciate it if we can accept that and move on (to pre-empt the "how dare you compare two situations when they aren't perfectly aligned!!" nonsense that has inevitably popped into someone's head as they're reading this; I've had a lot of experiences of such nitpicks derailling entire discussions, so apologies if this comes off too strong, but if anyone is thinking of bringing up this non-argument, please kindly do not).

The point is: The part of the work we find objectionable isn't just an aspect of the author, it's an integral part of the work. As far as those of us who can't partake in the work anymore are concerned, the problematic aspect of the work has rotted it to its core. Because you can't put something out of your mind, when it's literally right in front of you. You can't just get over the plagiarism when you're literally listening to the bassline from The Murder Of Love, which was used without permission or royalties. It's impossible.

If you can find a way to look past that and enjoy it, good for you. But not everyone can. I appreciate that you can still enjoy that, and I'm glad you have one more thing to enjoy in the world than I do, but I simply can't enjoy the "work" of Yamamoto.
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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:43 am

I still never like the idea of a replacement score for Kai in the first place. They should have use Kikuchi's music since day one for Kai.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:09 pm
I’m all for separating art from the artist (but even I have my limits I refuse to watch Jeepers Creepers because of the director’s history) but this
Off topic, you should avoid movies from Roman Polanski while you are at it ;).
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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:15 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:43 am
I still never like the idea of a replacement score for Kai in the first place. They should have use Kikuchi's music since day one for Kai.
Or, if they were going to do it, they should have hired at least one of the other dozen decent composers available in Japan who aren't plagiarists, like Kōhei Tanaka or anyone else who doesn't paint just about every work they compose music for with the same brush as Kikuchi does.

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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by kei17 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:27 am

Hellspawn28 wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:37 am
Kikuchi's music should have been in Kai since day one. Watching a remaster of DBZ without the original music feels odd. It would be like if the Star Wars special editions had none of the original music, and they hire Hans Zimmer to do a new music score replacement instead.
Totally agreed. But they could at least re-arrange it for stereo audio. And now with Super, it's like Star Wars without John Williams and the iconic sound effects.
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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by Arteaga4K » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:44 pm

I love Kikuchi's score to death, but it just doesn't work in Kai. This is the same reason why I don't watch the english dub of Z with the original score, the dub wasn't done with the original music in mind. Yamamoto Kai over Kikuchi Kai any day.
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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:52 am

I don't mind Kikuchi as I love that score but it should've either been used from the start or placed better when it was used to replace Yamamoto. What makes things worse is that Buu's Kai arc gets a new score while Kai 0.1 reuses an older one.

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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:57 pm

kei17 wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:27 am
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:37 am
Kikuchi's music should have been in Kai since day one. Watching a remaster of DBZ without the original music feels odd. It would be like if the Star Wars special editions had none of the original music, and they hire Hans Zimmer to do a new music score replacement instead.
Totally agreed. But they could at least re-arrange it for stereo audio. And now with Super, it's like Star Wars without John Williams and the iconic sound effects.
This is Toei we’re talking about, you think they’d actually do that?

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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:02 am

I don't like replacement scores and I don't like poor music placement. The fan edits that Kei makes for clips from the movies are a lot of fun, though. I wish Kikuchi worked on them or his tracks reused there.

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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:07 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:52 am
I don't mind Kikuchi as I love that score but it should've either been used from the start or placed better when it was used to replace Yamamoto. What makes things worse is that Buu's Kai arc gets a new score while Kai 0.1 reuses an older one.

I’m kind of surprised they don’t re-release Kai 1.0 with the Sumitomo music. Especially since he appears to be their official Dragon Ball music guy

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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:08 pm

I think people are overblowing how bad the placement in Kai is.
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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:13 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:07 pm
I’m kind of surprised they don’t re-release Kai 1.0 with the Sumitomo music. Especially since he appears to be their official Dragon Ball music guy.
I think Toei just wants to forget about Kai, which is a shame because if it was handled a bit better and included the DB portion of the story it could've become the default anime for the original manga. It's still my go to version to watch Z but there's no denying that they wasted a lot of potential with it.
ABED wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:08 pm
I think people are overblowing how bad the placement in Kai is.
It's not unwatchable or anything like that but it could've been so much better had they just lined in up with how it was in Z.

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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:56 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:02 am
I don't like replacement scores and I don't like poor music placement. The fan edits that Kei makes for clips from the movies are a lot of fun, though. I wish Kikuchi worked on them or his tracks reused there.
He stopped composing BGM's since about 2000, he'd been doing it for about 40 years at that point.

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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:05 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:08 pm
I think people are overblowing how bad the placement in Kai is.
Not necessarily bad just very limited and lacking in variance. I say in a way its better than watching it with stolen music.

I also hated that they used Piccolo’s theme for recap music instead of as Piccolo’s theme.

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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:11 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:08 pm
I think people are overblowing how bad the placement in Kai is.
I mean, Kikuchi in Kai is like you went to an old favourite restaurant, ordered their famous steak, and then they serve you it cooked well done and not properly seasoned.
You know this restaurant can do better, you know the steak itself can be better, you've eaten some mighty fine gourmet steak here before, many of the staff are the same, they're using the same meat; you know this all should be much better, but what you've been handed is just kinda bland and unremarkable, and that's a real crying shame.

So, I think people are pretty justified for being pissed off at what essentially amounts to just a kinda bland score, because of the context.
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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:43 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:05 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:08 pm
I think people are overblowing how bad the placement in Kai is.
Not necessarily bad just very limited and lacking in variance. I say in a way its better than watching it with stolen music.

I also hated that they used Piccolo’s theme for recap music instead of as Piccolo’s theme.
People say that, but I would like a graph showing how often cues are played because I don't think it's nearly as bad as people are claiming. I hear the same stuff in DB and DBZ over and over and over and over and over and over and over... and over again.

I mean, Kikuchi in Kai is like you went to an old favourite restaurant, ordered their famous steak, and then they serve you it cooked well done and not properly seasoned.
You know this restaurant can do better, you know the steak itself can be better, you've eaten some mighty fine gourmet steak here before, many of the staff are the same, they're using the same meat; you know this all should be much better, but what you've been handed is just kinda bland and unremarkable, and that's a real crying shame.

So, I think people are pretty justified for being pissed off at what essentially amounts to just a kinda bland score, because of the context.
yeah um no. It's music in a different place. That's it. Every single god damn time I ask for people to give me an example, the music placement is okay. It's not great, but it's fine. I honestly think people remember what used to be there and so there's negative reaction that's little more than it being not what they remember. It's not bland, it's not bad, it's just different. I don't think something so trivial justifies this kind of reaction. I kept seeing people talk about it like it's the worst thing ever, like MasenkoHa saying (s)he (don't want to assume) hates that Piccolo's theme is used for the recap music.
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Re: Do you like Kikuchi Kai?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:44 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:05 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:08 pm
I think people are overblowing how bad the placement in Kai is.
Not necessarily bad just very limited and lacking in variance. I say in a way its better than watching it with stolen music.

I also hated that they used Piccolo’s theme for recap music instead of as Piccolo’s theme.
It--and Super--really remind me how much I've grown to hate recap scenes using a singular piece of music. If you're going to do the recap handle it like it's actually happening for the first time and without narration! >_<

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