Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

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Koitsukai
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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:40 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:21 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:21 pm

And having perks to being dead doesn't mean they are the reason why he is staying dead, specially if the reason was already stated. We can argue all day long but Goku himself stated that he better lay off of Earth, besides he was dead, end of the line for the second time, better not keep pushing the natural ways of the universe, again. It's not like he is choosing to stay in Namekusei or take naps in some far away planet. The man can't even die that he still gets called out on his responsabilities?

Yes, Goku solved the Freeza problem but probably none of the above would've happened if he was never sent to Earth but that's for Masako to unravel.

Anyway, he can feel (based on his own experience or told by others) as guilty as he wants about his involvement in the recent crisis.
"Natural ways of the universe?" I'm sorry but what kind of bullshit is this?

Goku broke the natural ways of the universe as soon as he accepted the virus medicine from FTrunks. He broke all natural laws as soon as he started using the DBs to revive people from their causes of death.

He got killed by sacrificing Cell, an unnatural being from another timeline.

His guilt is well-found but his decision is logically flawed. Nothing about him screams "family" in that scene. He mentioned that there are fighters he can be with in the Afterlife. His intentions were noble but his preference was clear.

And what does Nozawa have to do with any of this?
Natural ways of the universe was a bad joke and hyperbole of the situation, lol.
Nobody said that his decision was due to his family, we are just pointing out that it does NOT scream training, like it or not, flawed or not, he is not returning(for the second time hence the joke about the natural ways of the universe) because he wants to train, but because he believes it'll be safer for all(and for 7 years, longest time ever in the franchise including GT, it was) his "preference" is your personal interpretation and has no place in this discussion. The one about his family is the DB-DBZ hiatus.

MasakoX I was talking about, you know? the TFS youtube what-iffer that uploads those kind of what-ifs every day.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by shomangaka » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:45 am

I think the way Goku acted in the Broly movie is a step in the right direction.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by FubukiFoxx » Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:31 pm

wolflonnie wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:25 am
I disagree.
I recently bought all the DBS manga volumes and read them in one go. I don't think they're that different.

DBS manga Goku still acts goofy and childish a lot of times in almost every arc, and, what's more, he seems more selfish than DBS anime Goku. Not to mention, in the ToP he seems flat out braindead sometimes.
DBS anime Goku just happens to act in a childish manner in more occasions than his DBS manga counterpart, but he doesn't seem as selfish in return. He can be more annoying but he means well.
I haven't read much at all of the Super manga, so might I ask for some examples? I find the comparison between his two adaptions really interesting.
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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Hulk10 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:00 pm

I don't agree with the idea that Goku selfishly abandons his family by choosing to stay dead. I understand that there are those that believe that. I also don't think there is much difference between DBS anime and DB manga Goku.

And for another thing, Goku isn't stupid nor does he 'not give a damn' he is simply overly naive and innocent. He hasn't had a proper education like others have.
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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Mister_Popo » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:43 pm

Kid Goku was more playful than mature DB Goku, but only in the slice of life / adventure stuff. When there was a serious battle going on, even Kid Goku was serious, and i mean dead serious. Super Goku maybe more ressembles Kid Goku. With that difference Supers Goku even fools around sometimes during important battles. He has basically become a manchild. This has more to do in my opinion with the less serious overall tone / parodical nature of Super and less with Gokus character as such. I mean, even Vegeta and Freeza, which were overall more serious-toned characters than Goku in DB, acted like real clowns and basically made a fool of themselves during Super on several occasions, all for the sake of "comedic relief".

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Metalwario64 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:18 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:43 pm
Kid Goku was more playful than mature DB Goku, but only in the slice of life / adventure stuff. When there was a serious battle going on, even Kid Goku was serious, and i mean dead serious. Super Goku maybe more ressembles Kid Goku. With that difference Supers Goku even fools around sometimes during important battles. He has basically become a manchild. This has more to do in my opinion with the less serious overall tone / parodical nature of Super and less with Gokus character as such. I mean, even Vegeta and Freeza, which were overall more serious-toned characters than Goku in DB, acted like real clowns and basically made a fool of themselves during Super on several occasions, all for the sake of "comedic relief".
I agree. I even just recently saw a Japanese comment on YouTube that when Google translated seemed to be complaining at how Goku is much less serious now, so it's not just a dub fan thing where they're just seeing the "real" Goku for the first time.
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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:03 pm

Metalwario64 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:18 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:43 pm
Kid Goku was more playful than mature DB Goku, but only in the slice of life / adventure stuff. When there was a serious battle going on, even Kid Goku was serious, and i mean dead serious. Super Goku maybe more ressembles Kid Goku. With that difference Supers Goku even fools around sometimes during important battles. He has basically become a manchild. This has more to do in my opinion with the less serious overall tone / parodical nature of Super and less with Gokus character as such. I mean, even Vegeta and Freeza, which were overall more serious-toned characters than Goku in DB, acted like real clowns and basically made a fool of themselves during Super on several occasions, all for the sake of "comedic relief".
I agree. I even just recently saw a Japanese comment on YouTube that when Google translated seemed to be complaining at how Goku is much less serious now, so it's not just a dub fan thing where they're just seeing the "real" Goku for the first time.
it may not necessarily be that they only remember some aspect of the character after not watching the series for a long time so they ignore several of the character's other aspects, that is very common

things like give the senzu bean to cell and destroy the potalas

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Sadala Elite » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:41 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:42 pm
I don't think is an ANIME vs MANGA discussion. To me is more like original DB/Z/GT run vs DB Super. The non kissing non sense was in both mediums, and that would've never worked in the original run.
This

If you were to rate Goku from most mature to least it would go like this:

DB(Z) Anime Goku = Xeno Goku = GT Adult Goku > Original Manga Goku > Super Anime Goku = GT Kid Goku > Super Manga Goku.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by peterx » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:08 pm

Aside from the "real" reason why Goku act childish (to appeal kids who watching DB and a generally much more childish/kawai culture nowdays than in 80s/90s..) I think there is an in-universe explanation too:

The simple fact is that with multiple transformations Goku became a bit too overconfident in his abilities and strength to the point where he thinks every fight is just a GAME for him to break his own limits even when REALLY bad guys appear out to kill him or his friends.. he is still just playing and became too carefree even in these situations rather than go full power from the very start, to eliminate the threat ASAP.

Before SS transformations he was much more calculating and careful as he never let his guard off, and he didn't had any asspull of a transformation in his pocket to surprise his enemies.

And with this I truly understand why Vegeta hates him so much.. He is mature yet cant comprehand how this manchild is always a step ahead of him.. :mrgreen:

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:18 pm

The issue isn't just with Goku but most of the cast. It seems like the writers took one trait of each character and not only made it their only trait, but exaggerated it as well. Chichi for example just screams at Goku and Gohan, that's all she does in Super. Gohan's lack of fighting shape in the early Buu arc (even then he was still strong) became exaggerated to the point where he didn't know if he could go Ssj or not in RF. Vegeta's Goku complex from the Cell arc is front and center any time he's on screen.

I think a reason for this if it's not due to a lack of understanding on the writers' part, is that these characters were fully developed at the end of the manga, so the only place they thought they could go was back. I don't think the BOG movie suffered from this (much) which might be due to it being produced as a one time only project, but once everyone knew they were in it for the long run, they decided to just go back instead of forward.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Sadala Elite » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:44 pm

peterx wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:08 pm
Aside from the "real" reason why Goku act childish (to appeal kids who watching DB and a generally much more childish/kawai culture nowdays than in 80s/90s..) I think there is an in-universe explanation too:

The simple fact is that with multiple transformations Goku became a bit too overconfident in his abilities and strength to the point where he thinks every fight is just a GAME for him to break his own limits even when REALLY bad guys appear out to kill him or his friends.. he is still just playing and became too carefree even in these situations rather than go full power from the very start, to eliminate the threat ASAP.

Before SS transformations he was much more calculating and careful as he never let his guard off, and he didn't had any asspull of a transformation in his pocket to surprise his enemies.

And with this I truly understand why Vegeta hates him so much.. He is mature yet cant comprehand how this manchild is always a step ahead of him.. :mrgreen:
Z Goku wasn't overconfident at all after unlocking transformations. He had no belief that he could beat Cell (and was bloodlusted against 19 & Gero), was cautious about fighting Super Buu, took Kid Buu seriously once he blew up the Earth and there wasnt of single instance of Goku dropping his guard in the middle of a fight post-Namek.
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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Sadala Elite » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:47 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:18 pm
The issue isn't just with Goku but most of the cast. It seems like the writers took one trait of each character and not only made it their only trait, but exaggerated it as well. Chichi for example just screams at Goku and Gohan, that's all she does in Super. Gohan's lack of fighting shape in the early Buu arc (even then he was still strong) became exaggerated to the point where he didn't know if he could go Ssj or not in RF. Vegeta's Goku complex from the Cell arc is front and center any time he's on screen.

I think a reason for this if it's not due to a lack of understanding on the writers' part, is that these characters were fully developed at the end of the manga, so the only place they thought they could go was back. I don't think the BOG movie suffered from this (much) which might be due to it being produced as a one time only project, but once everyone knew they were in it for the long run, they decided to just go back instead of forward.
Much of this is from Toriyama himself, as all of this is in the DBS Manga too, suggesting that its from his outline that Toei & Toyotaro have to follow.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Brojack » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:32 pm

Toei have probably been influenced by that trash series One Piece and it's retarded characters.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:17 am

Brojack wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:32 pm
Toei have probably been influenced by that trash series One Piece and it's retarded characters.
One Piece is very over the top, which seems t be the direction DB's characters are going in. The main difference is that One Piece was like that from the very start, while DB took 20+ years old established characters and turned them into that overnight. This change just creates massive inconsistencies while trying to watch it back to back with DB and Z. It also doesn't help that it actually works in One Piece while in DB it just comes off as bad writing.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:40 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:17 am
Brojack wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:32 pm
Toei have probably been influenced by that trash series One Piece and it's retarded characters.
One Piece is very over the top, which seems t be the direction DB's characters are going in. The main difference is that One Piece was like that from the very start, while DB took 20+ years old established characters and turned them into that overnight. This change just creates massive inconsistencies while trying to watch it back to back with DB and Z. It also doesn't help that it actually works in One Piece while in DB it just comes off as bad writing.
Well in One Piece (and I say this as someone who's never made it very far into the show so I might be completely off) the saccharine aesthetic is being played straight. A bit like the musical Moulin Rouge. One dimensional over the top characters work great in a saccharine world because the emotion isn't meant to be more than ankle high. It's meant to be just enough to get yourself a little wet before you move on to something else.

But Dragon Ball isn't saccharine, it's equal parts tongue in cheek and sardonic with explosions thrown in. Characters in sardonic worlds need to be handled with a certain amount of care and TOEI just doesn't seem up to the task. Try to imagine what the Namu joke from the 21st Budokai would look like in Super. They'd completely ruin it. Just completely fuck it up. And I think you can say the same of just about every gag in the manga.
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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:59 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:40 am
Well in One Piece the saccharine aesthetic is being played straight. One dimensional over the top characters work great in a saccharine world because the emotion isn't meant to be more than ankle high. It's meant to be just enough to get yourself a little wet before you move on to something else.

But Dragon Ball isn't saccharine, it's equal parts tongue in cheek and sardonic with explosions thrown in. Characters in sardonic worlds need to be handled with a certain amount of care and TOEI just doesn't seem up to the task.
There's also the fact that One Piece's characters are written directly by their author while DB's aren't. Toriyama isn't writing the dialogue for each character like Oda does, he's handing things over to writers who just don't understand these characters and what made people like them.

Goku for example was written as a likable character, which is why DB lasted as long as it has and influenced as much as it has. He was a balanced character who knew how to act depending on the situation and who he was interacting with. Modern Goku however has one over the top default behavior regardless of the situation and who he's interacting with. The writers just don't understand what makes him who he is and what makes him such a fan favorite.

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Re: Db manga adult Goku is very much different from super anime goku

Post by VegettoEX » Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:23 pm

Brojack wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:32 pm
Toei have probably been influenced by that trash series One Piece and it's retarded characters.
You can probably find a much better way to say all this.
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