Without rewritting the Buu saga, could in either Super or Gt Gohan take back the lead role?

[Mad Swami]

After making a thread called "How I might have done the Buu Saga" Which I accidentally posted in the In Universe discussion thread (I fixed this) I was thinking, without reworking the Buu saga, in a sequel to Z would Gohan reclaiming the lead role work or would Goku have to be the lead?

Now if your answer is anything is possible so sure, let me remind you, would it be satisfying is a part of this. So answer that also

[Fionordequester]

Yes, but it would become a different kind of story than the one Toriyama's interested in telling.

That, or there'd have to be two main characters. One who gets into trouble (like Kid Trunks), and the other to solve the trouble (Gohan). Otherwise, Gohan is just too passive a character.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I don't really think so. Buu Saga established pretty definitively that Gohan is a lousy protector. He's too arrogant (as seen during his fight against Buu) and he isn't nearly invested enough in bettering himself to stay on top. Now both those things might be forgiveable if we ever saw him pull a victory out of his ass like we saw Goku do frequently during OG Dragon Ball and during his fight with Raditz but we just don't. I know a lot of DB fans have mean things to say about HunterxHunter but Biscuit Krueger's lecture to Killua could just as easily apply to Gohan. Like Killua, Gohan has the mentality of a loser. When an enemy has exceeded Gohan in strength Gohan just throws in the towel and needs to be coached back into the fight. Despite his protective nature, Gohan just doesn't have what it takes to replace Goku.

[Mad Swami]

I don't really think so. Buu Saga established pretty definitively that Gohan is a lousy protector. He's too arrogant (as seen during his fight against Buu) and he isn't nearly invested enough in bettering himself to stay on top. Now both those things might be forgiveable if we ever saw him pull a victory out of his ass like we saw Goku do frequently during OG Dragon Ball and during his fight with Raditz but we just don't. I know a lot of DB fans have mean things to say about HunterxHunter but Biscuit Krueger's lecture to Killua could just as easily apply to Gohan. Like Killua, Gohan has the mentality of a loser. When an enemy has exceeded Gohan in strength Gohan just throws in the towel and needs to be coached back into the fight. Despite his protective nature, Gohan just doesn't have what it takes to replace Goku.

Not that I am disagreeing with you as I think it's a fair point, what if Gohan had an arc confronting these issues? Would you still see that as something not doable?

[Mad Swami]

Yes, but it would become a different kind of story than the one Toriyama's interested in telling.

That, or there'd have to be two main characters. One who gets into trouble (like Kid Trunks), and the other to solve the trouble (Gohan). Otherwise, Gohan is just too passive a character.

Fair, Gohan is a reactionary character and probably needs someone to cause the issues

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Not that I am disagreeing with you as I think it's a fair point, what if Gohan had an arc confronting these issues? Would you still see that as something not doable?

I think that depends on the arc and how well received it is.

[Mad Swami]

Not that I am disagreeing with you as I think it's a fair point, what if Gohan had an arc confronting these issues? Would you still see that as something not doable?

I think that depends on the arc and how well received it is.

Ok that's a good point

[Matches Malone]

Had Super and GT been completely different from the start then yes, as Gohan was established at the end of the Buu arc as the strongest non-fused character. The problem with the Super and GT we have now is that both reduced Gohan to nothing, even more so in Super, so giving him the lead after being kicked for so long wouldn't make any sense.

[Mad Swami]

Had Super and GT been completely different from the start then yes, as Gohan was established at the end of the Buu arc as the strongest non-fused character. The problem with the Super and GT we have now is that both reduced Gohan to nothing, even more so in Super, so giving him the lead after being kicked for so long wouldn't make any sense.

Yeah absolutley, 100% agree. This question was tackling the route that Super and Gt had done nothing and were just about to launch. Could the story work with Gohan taking the lead role. Thanks for the answer

[Mad Swami]

Bonus question. In a story where Gohan is the lead, would Vegeta and Goku keep up or should the story dilute their inclusion?

[Matches Malone]

In a story where Gohan is the lead, would Vegeta and Goku keep up or should the story dilute their inclusion?

I think the story can be big enough to not only include Goku and Vegeta, but also Piccolo, so there's no reason to leave anyone behind. That's the biggest mistake made in both Super and GT and it's something I wouldn't want to see in a potential 3rd continuation.

[Mad Swami]

In a story where Gohan is the lead, would Vegeta and Goku keep up or should the story dilute their inclusion?

I think the story can be big enough to not only include Goku and Vegeta, but also Piccolo, so there's no reason to leave anyone behind. That's the biggest mistake made in both Super and GT and it's something I wouldn't want to see in a potential 3rd continuation.

Right. The reason I singled Vegeta and Goku out specifically was due to them being leads in their own regards and having the potential to surpass Gohan in his own story (Unless you have them dialed back a bit). Not to mention the story would need a good reason to increase strength. However I understand what you mean and do tend to agree

[Matches Malone]

The reason I singled Vegeta and Goku out was due to them being leads in their own regards and having the potential to surpass Gohan in his own story (Unless you have them dialed back a bit).

I wouldn't allow anyone to get strong to the point of rendering everyone else useless. If Gohan got a boost, then so would everyone else, in their own way of course. If someone like Tien or Piccolo keeping up didn't make sense, then I'd include things in the story that would still keep them relevant, even if they fell behind power wise.

DB has a great collection of characters, and I think Super and GT did a massive disservice to themselves by limiting the story to 1-2 characters.

[Mad Swami]

The reason I singled Vegeta and Goku out was due to them being leads in their own regards and having the potential to surpass Gohan in his own story (Unless you have them dialed back a bit).

I wouldn't allow anyone to get strong to the point of rendering everyone else useless. If Gohan got a boost, then so would everyone else, in their own way of course. If someone like Tien or Piccolo keeping up didn't make sense, then I'd include things in the story that would still keep them relevant, even if they fell behind power wise.

DB has a great collection of characters, and I think Super and GT did a massive disservice to themselves by limiting the story to 1-2 characters.

Ok I see what your saying

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Bonus question. In a story where Gohan is the lead, would Vegeta and Goku keep up or should the story dilute their inclusion?

You know, I go back and forth on this. Dragon Ball has always more or less been the Goku show but whenver Goku is put into a support role, the story ticks along great without him. Krillin, Gohan, and Vegeta carried the Namek Arc just fine until Goku arrived. Tenshinhan's doomed stand against Piccolo Daimao was a pretty damn solid moment. And I absolutely loved the High School/Saiyaman bullshit with Gohan. So from a story perspective there's really nothing to say that Gohan couldn't carry his own story arc. And from a writing perspective there's good reason to shift the story away from Goku/Vegeta for a while. They're so ungodly strong right now that it takes Baphomet to give them a real challenge. Focusing on a lesser character like Gohan/Piccolo/The Saiya Brats would open the door for a villain who isn't The Most Dangerous Thing Ever^TM.

But Dragon Ball is more a franchise than it is a story, at least nowadays. Franchises don't stray far from their big names if they can helt it and if the series is selling just fine with Goku/Vegeta in the lead than there's no reason to change things. Furthermore the audience is invested in each threat being greater than the last one. It's many a Western fan's justification for not watching Dragon Ball. If the stakes become less than Earth shattering who's to say a chunk of the fanbase isn't put off?

[Mad Swami]

Bonus question. In a story where Gohan is the lead, would Vegeta and Goku keep up or should the story dilute their inclusion?

You know, I go back and forth on this. Dragon Ball has always more or less been the Goku show but whenver Goku is put into a support role, the story ticks along great without him. Krillin, Gohan, and Vegeta carried the Namek Arc just fine until Goku arrived. Tenshinhan's doomed stand against Piccolo Daimao was a pretty damn solid moment. And I absolutely loved the High School/Saiyaman bullshit with Gohan. So from a story perspective there's really nothing to say that Gohan couldn't carry his own story arc. And from a writing perspective there's good reason to shift the story away from Goku/Vegeta for a while. They're so ungodly strong right now that it takes Baphomet to give them a real challenge. Focusing on a lesser character like Gohan/Piccolo/The Saiya Brats would open the door for a villain who isn't The Most Dangerous Thing Ever^TM.

But Dragon Ball is more a franchise than it is a story, at least nowadays. Franchises don't stray far from their big names if they can helt it and if the series is selling just fine with Goku/Vegeta in the lead than there's no reason to change things. Furthermore the audience is invested in each threat being greater than the last one. It's many a Western fan's justification for not watching Dragon Ball. If the stakes become less than Earth shattering who's to say a chunk of the fanbase isn't put off?

I also go back and fourth on this. On one hand giving Gohan the lead would allow him to fulfill his full potential and take up the role he was made for. Yet on the other hand Goku is Dragon Ball's lead, it almost feels although something is missing without him. Sort of a crutch of nostalgia and good character work the fact it's hard to part with Goku. However if you sideline Goku without killing him it sort of seems odd so it's hard to do right. If you get rid of Goku, he should go out as the best right? or should he go out as a hero of a different time?

[Kuwabara]

Toriyama (or his editor at the time) already got cold feet with Gohan once, and I see no evidence of anything like that ever being tried again. As someone upthread mentioned, there's just no discernible interest in that type of direction for the character.

I know a lot of DB fans have mean things to say about HunterxHunter

Don't mean to derail the thread, but are they upset about Hunter x Hunter being a much better series?

[Matches Malone]

If you get rid of Goku, he should go out as the best right? or should he go out as a hero of a different time?

What I'm about to say won't make much sense now from a financial point of view but it's something that could've been done if modern DB was to focus on the next generation of fighters.

Goku and Vegeta could've decided after BOG that their fight with Beerus and Buu before him was a good ending for their battle life and that moving forward they'd no longer get involved with threats to earth and the universe, and that it was the next generation's job to carry the torch moving forward. It's not perfect, but I think if you wanted to move on from them without killing them, that's one way to do it.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I know a lot of DB fans have mean things to say about HunterxHunter

Don't mean to derail the thread, but are they upset about Hunter x Hunter being a much better series?

The complaints I've seen are that it's too prententious for a shonen and that most of its villains/arcs are recycled from other works which, imo, are fair criticisms. Personally I love how navel gazy HxH is. Reading it, I really got the impression that Togashi is trying to work out his own feelings towards the genre he's made his trade. But I don't begrudge anyone not being into that. HxH has a very slow start and each arc ends in an anti-climax. All most people want is a good story and while I do think HxH is that, "a good story" isn't a high priority for Togashi.

[emperior]

Gohan was always special ever since he was first introduced, right? He’s the kind of character they can actually write to be some “chosen one” in-universe and I don’t think people would mind that (while the same thing would greatly diminish Son Goku’s character).

So, if I had to write Gohan to be the lead in one Super arc, I would write him to be the chosen one of a godly prophecy.
And I would like the arc being centered about the theme of fate or pre-destination.
I would introduce Zalama, the creator of Super DBs, as an omniscent God. Contrary to Zuno, who only has knowledge about past and present, Zalama would have perfect knowledge of the future too.

The Dragon God Zalama would go to Gohan to train him to fullfil his destiny of beating Zalama’s omnipotent counterpart - a being so potent not even Zeno can erase, and whom Angels can’t fight due to their laws. This Zalama’s counterpart would be a Dragon Demon who spent all his life slaughtering the exceptional cases of humans with mixed blood (explain that it’s incredibly rare, among all universes, for two different alien species to be able to produce off-springs) - such as Jiren, whom the Demon believes to be the chosen one.
His power would remove every being he kills from existence - no afterlife for them. People he kills can only be revived by the Super DBs which have Zalama’s power and which the Demon is not able to destroy.

Goku would be dismissed as being worthless for the task, as Zalama would tell him that his fate has already been determined and that he already reached his destiny.
In the end, Goku would beat his own fate and be the one kill the enemy, thus proving to Zalama that he can’t write other people’s stories.
Basically Goku would be sidelined and considered useless, while Gohan would be the one the plot is centred around. But when Gohan fails to be up to his destiny, Goku would step up and prove every God that destiny doesn’t exist.