Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Mireya
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mireya » Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:53 am

Lionel wrote:Actually, the discrepancy between Gohan and Krillin would have likely started growing once the former received a zenkai from his brush with death at the hands of Recoome. Twice throughout that arc he was the beneficiary of zenkais during a time when they were inflationary and conveniently pushing Saiyans up to potential competitive levels with Freeza. But that aside, hybrids like Gohan have always been noted for their potential. Piccolo admitted that Gohan surpassed his own power if he put his mind to the task at hand during the Saiyan arc. Similarly, Vegeta waves aside the possibility of more hybrids in his conversation with Nappa under the pretext of the hybrids', "brats" as they were described, power being superior to their own. Age probably isn't too big of a determinant at that point if these other statements are to be considered.
Gohan was also conditioned to receive a Zenkai after being brutally and fatally wounded by Recoome and the power of Gohan and Kuririn seemed to be evenly matched during their fight with Ginyu in Goku's body. And in the case of the battle against Freeza, Kuririn is also noted as possessing a power that was increasing, so the power conferred on Gohan at the start of the battle is also probably due to the Great Elder's increased power, not due to a Zenkai that dragged on as it did with Vegeta.

And I am not calling Gohan's potential into question. It seems that Gohan has an overall potential superior to Vegeta's, which, as the latter said, was made "of a different stuff" from Krillin. So how do you compare the fact that Gohan did not leave Kuririn eating dust moments after his potential was unlocked as some proof that the earthlings could reach such high lengths training with Kaio? Sorry, but it seems like a pretty weak argument.
Freeza's own compliment of Nail was conditioned with the comparison of said Namekian warrior to others of his own species. It's more specifically quantified next to Nail's observations of Piccolo.
It was a break of expectations, just as Piccolo's power broke Nail's expectations, as made clear in his sentence. If the common namekuseijins, defenders of one of the villages attacked by Freeza, waste a power of 3000, Piccolo lavishing more than that would already condition Nail to say that Piccolo has a "surprising" amount of power.
 
As an evidence of the statement about the power who was "split into two" being another general way of saying it was simply divided, we see that Kami-sama proved to be far superior to a Goku who defeated Piccolo Daimao who recovered the power he had after separating from the original Kami. And yet it is said by Piccolo in the 23rd Tournament that Kami-sama did not train as he should, even calling him lazy, so this Kami is unlikely to be as powerful as he was after the division. If Piccolo Daimao had the same power as Kami after the split (which would be the case if the split were 50/50), we would obviously have a problem with the logic above.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:57 am

Mireya wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:53 am
Lionel wrote:Actually, the discrepancy between Gohan and Krillin would have likely started growing once the former received a zenkai from his brush with death at the hands of Recoome. Twice throughout that arc he was the beneficiary of zenkais during a time when they were inflationary and conveniently pushing Saiyans up to potential competitive levels with Freeza. But that aside, hybrids like Gohan have always been noted for their potential. Piccolo admitted that Gohan surpassed his own power if he put his mind to the task at hand during the Saiyan arc. Similarly, Vegeta waves aside the possibility of more hybrids in his conversation with Nappa under the pretext of the hybrids', "brats" as they were described, power being superior to their own. Age probably isn't too big of a determinant at that point if these other statements are to be considered.
Gohan was also conditioned to receive a Zenkai after being brutally and fatally wounded by Recoome and the power of Gohan and Kuririn seemed to be evenly matched during their fight with Ginyu in Goku's body. And in the case of the battle against Freeza, Kuririn is also noted as possessing a power that was increasing, so the power conferred on Gohan at the start of the battle is also probably due to the Great Elder's increased power, not due to a Zenkai that dragged on as it did with Vegeta.

And I am not calling Gohan's potential into question. It seems that Gohan has an overall potential superior to Vegeta's, which, as the latter said, was made "of a different stuff" from Krillin. So how do you compare the fact that Gohan did not leave Kuririn eating dust moments after his potential was unlocked as some proof that the earthlings could reach such high lengths training with Kaio? Sorry, but it seems like a pretty weak argument.
Freeza's own compliment of Nail was conditioned with the comparison of said Namekian warrior to others of his own species. It's more specifically quantified next to Nail's observations of Piccolo.
It was a break of expectations, just as Piccolo's power broke Nail's expectations, as made clear in his sentence. If the common namekuseijins, defenders of one of the villages attacked by Freeza, waste a power of 3000, Piccolo lavishing more than that would already condition Nail to say that Piccolo has a "surprising" amount of power.
 
As an evidence of the statement about the power who was "split into two" being another general way of saying it was simply divided, we see that Kami-sama proved to be far superior to a Goku who defeated Piccolo Daimao who recovered the power he had after separating from the original Kami. And yet it is said by Piccolo in the 23rd Tournament that Kami-sama did not train as he should, even calling him lazy, so this Kami is unlikely to be as powerful as he was after the division. If Piccolo Daimao had the same power as Kami after the split (which would be the case if the split were 50/50), we would obviously have a problem with the logic above.
Gohan and Krillin needed to purposefully regulate their power in the fight against Goku-Ginyu lest they damage it any further than what was necessary. It represented a variable independent of the two which they would have needed to account for within set parameters of power emission. As to Vegeta's recognition of their ever increasing power, it seemed worded as a broadly abstract projection of theirgrowth up until he delineated Gohan due to his potential.

I make the argument based on the same fact that in spite of Gohan's noted potential, his power was certifiably within consistent range of Krillin's throughout the early segment of the Ginyu Force battle; no stimuli such as zenkais to upset the comparison yet. Krillin himself is a capable fighter but he isn't singled for potential inherently wielded by himself exclusively. We can see this in his co-training regimen with the humans at Kami's Palace. When placed under the same conditions, his results measured out to roughly the same as the other humans.

The term used to describe Piccolo's improvements was "unbelievable". What we know of its character is that it was equivalent to several thousand years worth of Earth's qualitatively, it was more rigorous than what Goku underwent, and that several sparring partners were available for Piccolo. By its nature those qualities should prove more effective than Nail's own training. We know he had previously sensed the earthlings, Vegeta, and possibly Goku's power. The information gleaned of Goku's past results under King Kai and the strength of Vegeta would have likely been relayed to everyone there. If Piccolo hasn't surpassed even that standard then he would be contradicting himself in arguing that he can challenge Freeza -- until he makes it to the planet and directly senses the tyrant, of course.

I would ask, in that case, about the conditions in which the diffused set lived and trained under. We know they lived out their early years in Yunzabit Heights. Kami elaborates on how his predecessor sensed the darkness in his heart which prevented him from attaining the position at first. Kami eventually was able to expel said darkness. From there their lives diverge with Piccolo running rampant on Earth and Kami presumably being groomed and trained further by the former Kami. We don't know the exact amount by which he improved but it was likely great if the precedent set by other deities is factored in. Daimou himself had no one of his calibre to train as he was the strongest on the planet at the time sans Kami and Popo. It's possible he could have improved somehow like through meditative image training but was apparently not enough to bridge the gap between himself and his counterpart. Environmental conditions like that could explain the discrepancy.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mireya » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:29 am

Lionel wrote:Gohan and Krillin needed to purposefully regulate their power in the fight against Goku-Ginyu lest they damage it any further than what was necessary. It represented a variable independent of the two which they would have needed to account for within set parameters of power emission. As to Vegeta's recognition of their ever increasing power, it seemed worded as a broadly abstract projection of theirgrowth up until he delineated Gohan due to his potential. 
They were holding back as to not damage Ginyu-Goku, but we still saw Kuririn defending himself decently well when they were fighting without Gohan's interference for a moment and Gohan had to use both of his arms to bounce back the energy sphere used by Ginyu, so they weren't completely leagues apart, either. Neither seemed more damaged than the other, so trying to place a land-earth difference there seems unnecessary and not likely.

Vegeta also used a term that denoted a still on-going increase in power, meaning it likely had nothing to do with Gohan's zenkai, as Kuririn was also part of the equation.
I make the argument based on the same fact that in spite of Gohan's noted potential, his power was certifiably within consistent range of Krillin's throughout the early segment of the Ginyu Force battle; no stimuli such as zenkais to upset the comparison yet. Krillin himself is a capable fighter but he isn't singled for potential inherently wielded by himself exclusively. We can see this in his co-training regimen with the humans at Kami's Palace. When placed under the same conditions, his results measured out to roughly the same as the other humans. 
And we know that Gohan's potential dwarfs Kuririn's, don't we? So what we take from them being relative to one another initially? That Kuririn's potential was freed at a faster rate, initially, than Gohan's, likely due to him being closer to his prime.

Goku has a higher potential than the other earthlings by virtue of being a Saiyan, so the earthlings may not been even reaching the level he got at while not being there for a much bigger amount of days. Tenshinhan got in an additional time, but considering his potential might not be comparable to Goku's, an 8,000 amount might be a good ceiling.
The term used to describe Piccolo's improvements was "unbelievable". What we know of its character is that it was equivalent to several thousand years worth of Earth's qualitatively, it was more rigorous than what Goku underwent, and that several sparring partners were available for Piccolo. By its nature those qualities should prove more effective than Nail's own training. We know he had previously sensed the earthlings, Vegeta, and possibly Goku's power. The information gleaned of Goku's past results under King Kai and the strength of Vegeta would have likely been relayed to everyone there. If Piccolo hasn't surpassed even that standard then he would be contradicting himself in arguing that he can challenge Freeza -- until he makes it to the planet and directly senses the tyrant, of course.
I don't think this other term makes the argument much stronger. It's just yet another term used to emphasize a great leap in power, but still not totally quantifiable.

Kaio wouldn't be able to convey their power with accuracy considering he's weaker even than Nappa, so it's likely they were all in the dark in regards to the heightened power clash in the battle against Vegeta.
I would ask, in that case, about the conditions in which the diffused set lived and trained under. We know they lived out their early years in Yunzabit Heights. Kami elaborates on how his predecessor sensed the darkness in his heart which prevented him from attaining the position at first. Kami eventually was able to expel said darkness. From there their lives diverge with Piccolo running rampant on Earth and Kami presumably being groomed and trained further by the former Kami. We don't know the exact amount by which he improved but it was likely great if the precedent set by other deities is factored in. Daimou himself had no one of his calibre to train as he was the strongest on the planet at the time sans Kami and Popo. It's possible he could have improved somehow like through meditative image training but was apparently not enough to bridge the gap between himself and his counterpart. Environmental conditions like that could explain the discrepancy.
I haven't this information about the former deity of the Earth and its relation with Kami. Still, I'd like to point out again the way Piccolo referred to Kami, as a lazy that could be a potential challenge if he commited to it. Are we to argue that the Kami post split was as strong as Piccolo Daimao post regaining his youth and that Kami improved himself in all the time separating Daimao being sealed up and then defeated by Goku, in spite of later being referred to as lazy and not commited? I think it's less of a stretch to think that the power he kept post split was the majority that not even hundreds of years of not training would close the gap already existed post split.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:54 am

I'm not going to continue a long winded debate. I provide my concession with this post.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodPrince91 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:25 pm

So where does Vegeta rank now in terms of power now with his awakened 'spirit control'?
above goku, same level, or below?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:39 pm

Who do you guys think is the weakest SSB level character currently (anime or manga)?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:29 am

GodPrince91 wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:25 pm
So where does Vegeta rank now in terms of power now with his awakened 'spirit control'?
above goku, same level, or below?
Considering Goku's training with Merus was merely to practice Ultra Instinct, and he didn't had that much time to train to begin with, I would argue that Vegeta should be superior in equivalent forms. He already were stronger than Goku, with SSBE being a variation of SSB that Goku didn't have. That said, I don't think Vegeta got STRONGER, per se, but merely more efficient with his own power, which translates into a much better performance.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:39 pm
Who do you guys think is the weakest SSB level character currently (anime or manga)?
(Manga) Depends, I guess. I would say Hit, if you consider him SSB tier, would be the weakest of them, since he does not rely on raw power at all. If not him, then maybe 17 or Toppo. Gohan's performance against Kefla said everything we needed to know.

(Anime) Probably Hit. Like in the manga, he does not require raw power to be dangerous, and can fell much stronger opponents by combining his Time Skip with his assassination skills.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:35 pm

GodPrince91 wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:25 pm
So where does Vegeta rank now in terms of power now with his awakened 'spirit control'?
above goku, same level, or below?
Above, yes, probably way above him. They were pretty much equals vs Broly.
Thani wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:29 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:39 pm
Who do you guys think is the weakest SSB level character currently (anime or manga)?
(Manga) Depends, I guess. I would say Hit, if you consider him SSB tier, would be the weakest of them, since he does not rely on raw power at all. If not him, then maybe 17 or Toppo. Gohan's performance against Kefla said everything we needed to know.
I should re-read the manga, but wasn't manga 17 like SS3 Goku level? or maybe stronger but, I don't remember him getting the same comparisons to SSB like in the anime.

For what I can remember, I'd say in the manga the weakest SSB level has to be Toppo.


For the anime, to me, 17 is the weakest. While I don't consider him SSB level, he can fight them due to his special abilities but there isn't much he can do. Toppo casually disposed him and Gohan together.
Hit I think is the one, without being raw blue tier, that can harm SSB level characters the most, he did kill Goku. I don't count 17 damaging Jiren's spandex because it was sort of a backstab.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:05 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:35 pm
GodPrince91 wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:25 pm
So where does Vegeta rank now in terms of power now with his awakened 'spirit control'?
above goku, same level, or below?
Above, yes, probably way above him. They were pretty much equals vs Broly.
Thani wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:29 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:39 pm
Who do you guys think is the weakest SSB level character currently (anime or manga)?
(Manga) Depends, I guess. I would say Hit, if you consider him SSB tier, would be the weakest of them, since he does not rely on raw power at all. If not him, then maybe 17 or Toppo. Gohan's performance against Kefla said everything we needed to know.
I should re-read the manga, but wasn't manga 17 like SS3 Goku level? or maybe stronger but, I don't remember him getting the same comparisons to SSB like in the anime.

For what I can remember, I'd say in the manga the weakest SSB level has to be Toppo.


For the anime, to me, 17 is the weakest. While I don't consider him SSB level, he can fight them due to his special abilities but there isn't much he can do. Toppo casually disposed him and Gohan together.
Hit I think is the one, without being raw blue tier, that can harm SSB level characters the most, he did kill Goku. I don't count 17 damaging Jiren's spandex because it was sort of a backstab.
17 was gonna kill SS3 Goku. As far as I remember, Goku does say 17 is almost as strong as them.

I would still put 17 as the weakest of the high tier SSB people in both mediums. If we are talking about the entire tier then Saonel or Pirina should be the weakest in the anime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:14 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:05 pm

17 was gonna kill SS3 Goku. As far as I remember, Goku does say 17 is almost as strong as them.

I would still put 17 as the weakest of the high tier SSB people in both mediums. If we are talking about the entire tier then Saonel or Pirina should be the weakest in the anime.
Yeah, I was going by Goku's quote at the end of the arc. Honestly I would be okay with 17 being "only" above SS3 Goku, enough to seriously harm him. But them's the breaks.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:29 am

Does anyone have the quote about Goku fighting intentionally at low stamina to cheat UI out?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:26 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:29 am
Does anyone have the quote about Goku fighting intentionally at low stamina to cheat UI out?
You mean the quote where Roshi asks if Goku is trying to awaken UI when fighting the Saiyan girls fatigued?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:18 pm

Everyone was assuming that Goku fighting at his utmost limit was a way to overcome himself and perhaps reach UI, which Goku managed at the end of the fight, so Whis was wrong and Roshi was right. Sharping his senses wasn’t the only thing he was trying to do. Bit by bit, his energy was increasing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:34 am

Miracles wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:26 pm
ekrolo2 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:29 am
Does anyone have the quote about Goku fighting intentionally at low stamina to cheat UI out?
You mean the quote where Roshi asks if Goku is trying to awaken UI when fighting the Saiyan girls fatigued?
That's the one
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:55 pm

Was there ever any solid info on how much stronger the Angels are compared to the Hakaishin?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:39 am

Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:55 pm
Was there ever any solid info on how much stronger the Angels are compared to the Hakaishin?
Other than Toriyama ranking Whis a 15 and Beerus a 10, nope.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:36 am

It seems Bandai’s Dragon Ball Super Warriors Seal Wafer Z 14th set has Goku (Ultra Instinct) and Jiren (surpassed limits) above Broli (Full powered Super Saiyan).


For context, Broli has 9,600. Goku (Ultra Instinct) varies from 9,400 to 9,700, while Gogeta (SSGSS) varies from 9,600 to 9,800.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:03 pm

Nice. I always had UI Goku and BL Jiren above Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:31 pm

Last edited by Miracles on Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:54 pm

That really makes no sense, Blue Gogeta and Broly could never be equals

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