Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

[MasenkoHA]

What do you think?

I think even when it comes to dub replacement scores Faulconer was the worst one. I’d put Wasserman, Johnson, and even Menza over Faulconer’s ear torture score. The voice acting wasn’t the only thing that got worse with the original Funi dub when the cast switch to in-house the music got way worse too.

I also find it hilarious to give Faulconer credit for being more modern when it now sounds even more dated than the Kikuchi score. The Kikuchi score definitely exhibits an “this was made in the 80s” vibe (because it was) at times but it mostly has a timeless feel to it. The Falconzord score couldn’t sound any more like it was made at the turn of the 21st century.

[JulieYBM]

"Is it time to stop caring about respecting the music and sound design teams of Dragon Ball in favor of being cheap and replacing the audio with a completely different composer's work?"

EDIT: *Tries hitting Save Draft button so she can finish post on her Desktop, hits post button* Welp. Lousy screen protector.

I think that it's 100% fair to not like the work of Kikuchi Shunsuke and Music Placement Miyashita Shigeru or the influence of the various episode directors and series directors. Sometimes I do not, either! Hell, Dragon Ball Super's sound design is utterly atrocious and I feel like I harp on it constantly. I do think it's disingenuous to deny what Kikuchi, Miyashita et al were aiming for in developing the sound design of the series. It's a lot more expertly crafted and reliant on placement of sound and silence than just Mickey Mousing. Some of us have disabilities and get nauseated by constant, frenetic music that wildly changes by the frame or cut. Having consistently composed music as separate tracks that can be reused rather than constantly re-scoring is also a much more intelligent use of resources. A small, memorable bank of music that staff can master use of and viewers can memorize is a far better tactic from my perspective as someone who fantasizes about making her own film and television.

I won't speak about the actual quality of the music since I can hardly remember it.

[VegettoEX]

Julie, if you’re not interested in having the conversation, you’re under no obligation to post. The rhetorical nonsense and other brief posts are not welcome.

Same goes for others (being under no obligation to post). Keep the drive-by comments to yourself.

[JulieYBM]

My screen-protector makes it difficult to type properly on my phone so I tried hitting Save Draft to I could switch over to Desktop but my thumb must have hit Post. Muh bad. I edited my post to actually include the behemoth paragraph I'd intended to from the start.

[GhostEmperorX]

The “Faulconer” OST is an aberration though, and came in rather late to the series. On top of that, the handling was rather terrible (droning on 24/7). It was way too bloated as well.
It also had no recurring themes (aka in different versions of the same melody which even Kikuchi’s score had even though they were mostly on the same scale) and barely anything even resembling an orchestra.
Even for me who thinks the original OST (minus all vocal themes, those are on point) for the most part only goes best with retro 70’s animation, literally none of the JP composers that I prefer to the one they used for the overall series would have sounded anything like what the Faulconer productions team did. Even if they were mostly doing material like Solid State Scouter.
Not to mention how it can sound rather crass and noisy at times. The actual people who composed much of that OST were not established or all that experienced. It also overused ambient sounds and other synth effects that even included copied guitar (some of which sounded rather bad).

Also, a side note, but shouldn’t this be in the music section?

[Planetnamek]

Funny I actually like it more as an adult now then I did as a kid.

I'm sure Kunzait will have a novel-length post tearing Faulconer a new asshole any day now

I'm a fan of synth but... come on. Faulconer's score sounds as if the only music he'd ever listened to was Bret Hart's WWF theme.

From looking at the posts of one cRookie on here(who actually did work for Faulconer Productions)you learn it was Funimation themselves(I.E.Barry Watson)that demanded that particular sound, FP were basically just doing what their client wanted, and FP is more then just Bruce himself, it's made up of several different musicians.

I will say it's not just synth music though, there are some genuine impressive non-synth themes like this one:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ufq0OBvg2k

The “Faulconer” OST is an aberration though, and came in rather late to the series. On top of that, the handling was rather terrible (droning on 24/7). It was way too bloated as well.
It also had no recurring themes (aka in different versions of the same melody which even Kikuchi’s score had even though they were mostly on the same scale) and barely anything even resembling an orchestra.
Even for me who thinks the original OST (minus all vocal themes, those are on point) for the most part only goes best with retro 70’s animation, literally none of the JP composers that I prefer to the one they used for the overall series would have sounded anything like what the Faulconer productions team did. Even if they were mostly doing material like Solid State Scouter.
Not to mention how it can sound rather crass and noisy at times. The actual people who composed much of that OST were not established or all that experienced. It also overused ambient sounds and other synth effects that even included copied guitar (so,e of which sounded rather bad).

Also, a side note, but shouldn’t this be in the music section?

I dunno that theme I just linked sounds pretty "orchestral" to me, I do agree that this topic should be moved to the music section though.

FP was a talented group of individuals and that particular tone of the OST had nothing to do with their experience or lake thereof and everything to do with Funi's very specific set of demands for them.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Spoiler:

Funny I actually like it more as an adult now then I did as a kid.

I'm sure Kunzait will have a novel-length post tearing Faulconer a new asshole any day now

I'm a fan of synth but... come on. Faulconer's score sounds as if the only music he'd ever listened to was Bret Hart's WWF theme.

From looking at the posts of one cRookie on here(who actually did work for Faulconer Productions)you learn it was Funimation themselves(I.E.Barry Watson)that demanded that particular sound, FP were basically just doing what their client wanted, and FP is more then just Bruce himself, it's made up of several different musicians.

I will say it's not just synth music though, there are some genuine impressive non-synth themes like this one:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ufq0OBvg2k

The “Faulconer” OST is an aberration though, and came in rather late to the series. On top of that, the handling was rather terrible (droning on 24/7). It was way too bloated as well.
It also had no recurring themes (aka in different versions of the same melody which even Kikuchi’s score had even though they were mostly on the same scale) and barely anything even resembling an orchestra.
Even for me who thinks the original OST (minus all vocal themes, those are on point) for the most part only goes best with retro 70’s animation, literally none of the JP composers that I prefer to the one they used for the overall series would have sounded anything like what the Faulconer productions team did. Even if they were mostly doing material like Solid State Scouter.
Not to mention how it can sound rather crass and noisy at times. The actual people who composed much of that OST were not established or all that experienced. It also overused ambient sounds and other synth effects that even included copied guitar (so,e of which sounded rather bad).

Also, a side note, but shouldn’t this be in the music section?

I dunno that theme I just linked sounds pretty "orchestral" to me, I do agree that this topic should be moved to the music section though.

FP was a talented group of individuals and that particular tone of the OST had nothing to do with their experience or lake thereof and everything to do with Funi's very specific set of demands for them.

It worked for the heavily altered tone of the dub they were going for back in 1999/2000, though replacement scores is a thing they and most other dubbing production companies largely don't do anymore

[Planetnamek]

Spoiler:

I'm a fan of synth but... come on. Faulconer's score sounds as if the only music he'd ever listened to was Bret Hart's WWF theme.

From looking at the posts of one cRookie on here(who actually did work for Faulconer Productions)you learn it was Funimation themselves(I.E.Barry Watson)that demanded that particular sound, FP were basically just doing what their client wanted, and FP is more then just Bruce himself, it's made up of several different musicians.

I will say it's not just synth music though, there are some genuine impressive non-synth themes like this one:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ufq0OBvg2k

The “Faulconer” OST is an aberration though, and came in rather late to the series. On top of that, the handling was rather terrible (droning on 24/7). It was way too bloated as well.
It also had no recurring themes (aka in different versions of the same melody which even Kikuchi’s score had even though they were mostly on the same scale) and barely anything even resembling an orchestra.
Even for me who thinks the original OST (minus all vocal themes, those are on point) for the most part only goes best with retro 70’s animation, literally none of the JP composers that I prefer to the one they used for the overall series would have sounded anything like what the Faulconer productions team did. Even if they were mostly doing material like Solid State Scouter.
Not to mention how it can sound rather crass and noisy at times. The actual people who composed much of that OST were not established or all that experienced. It also overused ambient sounds and other synth effects that even included copied guitar (so,e of which sounded rather bad).

Also, a side note, but shouldn’t this be in the music section?

I dunno that theme I just linked sounds pretty "orchestral" to me, I do agree that this topic should be moved to the music section though.

FP was a talented group of individuals and that particular tone of the OST had nothing to do with their experience or lake thereof and everything to do with Funi's very specific set of demands for them.

It worked for the heavily altered tone of the dub they were going for back in 1999/2000, though replacement scores is a thing they and most other dubbing production companies largely don't do anymore

Yes it seems The Pokemon Company are the only ones out there still doing replacement scores and ironically in their case they are replacing far more of the original score than 4Kids ever did to the point where it's very much divided the fanbase. Pokemon feels downright anachronistic with it being basically the only big anime that does not have an official way to watch the original version in the U.S.

[Rory]

I will say it's not just synth music though, there are some genuine impressive non-synth themes like this one:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ufq0OBvg2k

That's literally synth music.

[Gligarman]

I will always stand by Shunsuke Kikuchi‘s score. He understood the tone of the show and never let the music become a distraction. One of the reasons I never liked the music used in the dub is because it never stops. It’s constant, there’s never any dramatic or even comedic silence.

[GhostEmperorX]

Spoiler:

Like when it comes to being more modern the Faulconer Productions OST has a lot more going for it than the Kikuchi score which goes for a more old-timey kind of thing. Even in the era it debuted in, it was still a mismatch of content of the time. Faulconer Production's used the latest synth tech to create an atmospheric kind of OST.

Agreed with you on the bold statement, it does indeed pale compared to the standard material that came out during its time even in Japan (since it's barely different from his 70's work), but you could get a modern (or at least not a dated) sound even with an orchestra, all that's needed is better recording quality that doesn't sound garbage like you had in almost everything else (like basically every other studio did, such as Sunrise which has excellent scores all the time in both the 80's and 90's). And it wouldn't necessarily be anything like Faulconer either.
Scale overuse is one of my main gripes with the Kikuchi score, but overusing synths isn't much of a good thing either.

The fight scenes are easily a lot better in Faulconer's because they are more engaging, diverse, and play with more energy which matches what's being portrayed on screen vs the Kikuchi score which has a lot of very slow brass sounds "DUN DUN DUN....!".

Even the calmer music is better especially on the slice of life moments where it feels cheery and peaceful.

The fact also that they were not hindered by making something specific for the OST but what they felt would fit the scenes on the screen and carefully created on each second really sends it a step above the traditional approach.

What do you think?

Leitmotifs for characters that have numerous variations and aren't disconnected would have worked as well, they didn't have to do only battles.

Spoiler:

Even though I disagree, it's your opinion at the end of the day. I think the Japanese OST could've used a little more variety (Toei being Toei), but it's hard for me to say a replacement score is objectively better than the score it was originally created for

It could certainly have done without all the F minor monotony, but as you said, it's Toei. They did get it right with Saint Seiya though.
And you have a point, especially considering how late said replacement score was. So it basically had no roots within it.

My view is that because the manga was designed without a OST in mind and both are trying to make music fit where music didn't exist prior, especially with how extensive the Faulconer Productions went with going by each frame of the show, it matters not where the music originates but what does a better job. And for me the job Faulconer Productions did does that.

Other manga did it much better though. Not sure I even have to name any examples if you've seen a lot.

Spoiler:

Both Yamamoto and Faulconer's scores were repetitive, but Yamamoto outright reused musical ideas all over the place when he wasn't plagiarizing. I saw a video (by kei I think) years ago pointing out so many of his tracks end with a 2-3 note stab. Plus, most of his music was just ripped off and barely modified from so many other composers.

Basically everything he did was plagiarizing.

The Japanese score is timeless and very memorable. Plus it fits the martial arts core of the series.

It doesn't exactly sound timeless, and as for martial arts core, there's G Gundam which is the same but the score for it done by Kōhei Tanaka does a much better job and is actually timeless.

Spoiler:

The Kikuchi score is a very classical score; beautifully recorded from real instruments, every single piece is memorable thanks to the fact they're all generally quite simple, strong melodies, and a lot of the score tends to be based around leitmotifs like Piccolo's ever-evolving theme, which allows the score to change up its tone and style but because it's continually reusing the same melodies, the themes stick in your head really well.
And there were so many packages of good Kikuchi music, just crazy variety there. And the score itself is very good at leaving space for the performers to really shine (which is bad news for Funi's in-house dubs, where the intense Faulconer score helps disguise the lacklustre performances, but that specific case aside, it's a good thing).

So, for me, Kikuchi is the better score, by far. But that's purely an opinion. The synthesisers used in Faulconer's score may sound perfect to your ears, and you may just not like the classical feel of Kikuchi's score. And that's fine.

The recording quality is actually rather atrocious or low-standard for lots of the pieces (because Toei), doesn't sound as refined as what I've heard from other anime and studios. And as for being classical, I don't think most others would use F minor for more than half of their pieces.
Also I feel your descriptions would be more befitting of most concurrent anime that aren't DB. Because personally, only the non-BGM tracks like the OP, ED, or vocal themes stick. Most everything else (with few exceptions) sounds not at all distinct from what Kikuchi used to do in the 70's (which I actually happen to prefer) and would probably fit right at home there. It doesn't feel unique enough.
But I was told that Kikuchi was only there to "give the show some direction, not steal the spotlight and sell CD's" and that it relied more on silence than any standout tracks. And that the works being unremarkable allowed for more focus on the actual scenes themselves ("accenting a scene and not stealing it"). This choice is said to be better because it keeps the show consistent in mood, always on the edge and never too happy or silly, and the more standout stuff is better suited for more "compressed" series. From this viewpoint, it does seem to work. So it seems I had the wrong expectations for what the soundtrack should have been.

I will always stand by Shunsuke Kikuchi‘s score. He understood the tone of the show and never let the music become a distraction.

This I think encapsulates the above point rather well. It may be the same even if the music were more standout but there were still silent moments.

[eledoremassis02]

I think it works as a soundtrack and not so much with the visuals of the show. It's got that late 90s vibe and I think it would probably work better with newer animation? (Maybe super??) or if it toned itself down a bit.

One thing I don't like about it tho, is it was too obsessed with themes where the music got cut weird because a character theme had to play.

[GhostEmperorX]

I also find it hilarious to give Faulconer credit for being more modern when it now sounds even more dated than the Kikuchi score. The Kikuchi score definitely exhibits an “this was made in the 70s” vibe (because it was) at times but it mostly has a timeless feel to it. The Falconzord score couldn’t sound any more like it was made at the turn of the 21st century.

Fixed that bit for you, because Kōichi Sugiyama and others were composing much more quality material right from 1980 (Ideon) while you can comfortably use most of Kikuchi's score in the likes of Grendizer and Daimos, and they'd fit with little issue. They both sound dated and the Faulconer team score really does sound like something of a fading trend.

[XanatosVanBadass]

One thing that always stuck out at me from what I watched from the Funi dub OST is how, Vegeta or Piccolo would be shown on screen (pretty much no matter what was happening) they couldn’t resist playing their respective “themes”. It was almost comical.

[MasenkoHA]

One thing that always stuck out at me from what I watched from the Funi dub OST is how, Vegeta or Piccolo would be shown on screen (pretty much no matter what was happening) they couldn’t resist playing their respective “themes”. It was almost comical.

Gah as much as I adore Kikuchi’s theme for Piccolo could you imagine how old it would get if it played every second he was on screen?

[samuraix123]

Uh oh.....

I seen this and laughed. It actually shouldn't be a thing were we see topics like this and think ''oh lord...Somebody's gonna get tore a new one'' I do think the main title could have been worded better because I get a feeling of ''We need to just accept it's better'' or maybe that's just me. But I honestly don't believe there is no right or wrong answer here. We're all different people with different tastes. I like the US score and Japanese score and Yamamotto for Kai. I actually don't know who did the music for Ocean? Was that Funi? I honestly don't keep up with all the people behind this and that and I consider myself a pretty hardcore fan lol

[MasenkoHA]

I do think the main title could have been worded better because I get a feeling of ''We need to just accept it's better'' or maybe that's just me.

No it wasn’t you it was clearly the OP’s intent to pass it off as a “speaking the truth” thing

I actually don't know who did the music for Ocean? Was that Funi? I honestly don't keep up with all the people behind this and that and I consider myself a pretty hardcore fan lol

The soundtrack for the Funi/Ocean/Saban dub was done by Saban at Funimation’s request to have a replacement score. The later stuff from the Ab Groupe era was just recycled from other Ocean group shows (Megaman and Monster Rancher)

[ABED]

One of the many problems I have with the Faulconer score is it doesn't feel like part of a whole. First, the dub scores are all different so it doesn't feel coherent, and then there's the issue of a US score over a very Asian show.

[GhostEmperorX]

Spoiler:

One thing I don't like about it tho, is it was too obsessed with themes where the music got cut weird because a character theme had to play.

One thing that always stuck out at me from what I watched from the Funi dub OST is how, Vegeta or Piccolo would be shown on screen (pretty much no matter what was happening) they couldn’t resist playing their respective “themes”. It was almost comical.

Yeah, they really didn't know how to handle character motifs. They should only be played for a few important moments or when it's just focusing on the character alone. And there can at least be some variations such as tucking in the same melody into another track with a different pacing or a separate scale. But Funimation's directing was terrible.

FP was a talented group of individuals and that particular tone of the OST had nothing to do with their experience or lake thereof and everything to do with Funi's very specific set of demands for them.

This is also part of it, Funimation not knowing how to direct properly.

One of the many problems I have with the Faulconer score is it doesn't feel like part of a whole. First, the dub scores are all different so it doesn't feel coherent, and then there's the issue of a US score over a very Asian show.

Agreed. It seems to be a problem with composing being handled by a group of people rather than one person alone, and when they have to make too many just to fill up the silence (as a consequence of Funimation's bad direction). And there's also the previously mentioned tidbit of its late arrival in the show.
It ends up being a broken clock that misses a lot but only hits a few times.
But then it wasn't used for the original DB, which is at least good enough.

[Planetnamek]

I will say it's not just synth music though, there are some genuine impressive non-synth themes like this one:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ufq0OBvg2k

That's literally synth music.

Does not sound like what most people that hate the Faulconer score think of when they say synth music though.