Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

[Planetnamek]

If there’s hate for it among dub fans, we can’t deny they have some good reasons to feel affronted. The Orange Brick dub is not the uncut version of what they saw on CN. People all have their own reasons for wanting to go back and watch the show. Some fans just want to see the old bad dub, but Funimation has disavowed it in favor of a slightly better product. ... Which (the OB redub) is not that much better. To the dub fans, basically: you can’t have the old bad dub, tasteless rubes, but you can have this piecemeal and rushed thing which no one asked for. And for them it’s only gotten worse since the Orange Bricks, since the only dub option on streaming services is the half-redub + Kikuchi audio.

I know right, it's a half baked product FUNi did in 2007 as an attempt to make the in house Z dub less bad from the Freeza arc onward than it had been during the cast's first go just under a decade earlier. Needless to say the end result really isn't all that much of an improvement overall, although some of the most god awful jokes and lines were removed they still didn't go far enough. If you ask me, they shouldn't have even bothered with doing it because no amount of revising and polishing can make the old in house dub good. The OB partial redub is a Frankenstein's monster mess that was just barely better than the original Season 3 run had been back in 1999.

I'd argue that removal of voice filters, awkward placement of demo versions of the soundtrack, awful DNR and terrible cropping actually make the redub WORSE then the original in-house dub, i'll gladly take a few corny jokes over worse visual and audio quality. I like the dub just fine, but I do acknowledge that it was very much a product of its time for better or worse as those kinds of dubbing practices are now virtually extinct.

I get wanting to redub the episodes originally done by Ocean, that made sense and some of those changes in those episodes were for the better, but there was no real reason at all to try and redo seasons 3 and beyond.

[ZeroNeonix]

Team Faulconer's score may feel like a viable anime score, but it doesn't do anything for Dragon Ball. It would be great in some sci-fi or Mecha series though.

Saiyan arc: An alien comes down to Earth and reveals that Goku and Piccolo are also aliens. When he's defeated, some of his alien friends come to cause trouble.

Frieza arc: After reverse engineering alien technology, the heroes travel to a distant planet, where they are confronted by a space land shark with a form based on the Xenomorph.

Android arc: A boy from the future warns about androids who will destroy the earth in a few years.

Cell arc: A genetically engineered monster kills people for their energy and absorbs the androids to transform.

Dragon Ball Z is sci-fi. He even basically did the story from Terminator. lol

[GhostEmperorX]

GhostEmperorX strongly believes that people here love and give credit to Kikuchi because they know very little about anime music in general, and he takes every opportunity to try to "enlighten" them by pointing to examples of "objectively better composers", which actually represents nothing but his personal preferences ultimately. Look through his posts here and you'll see how he's been sticking with this idea like a broken record. He contributes nearly nothing to discussions.

I would prefer it if you didn’t straw man what I’m saying even now after I’ve altered it. And it’s not in this forum specifically, but the net in general (YT, etc), I only came here because I was hoping there would be more conducive discussions on a DB forum on what exactly is behind all the favor since I was very confused as to why (since no other forum would seem to want to discuss it). Especially what makes people go so far as to attack those who say they may not like it. But I understand a bit more than I did then, even if my view didn’t change all that much. More silence and empty space in the series than most others.

And additionally, where did I not give Kikuchi his due credit for his general career besides just DB? Thing is, I can only give him credit for what it is he actually does, which is (or was) his job. He even has a few tracks I prefer in the DBZ OST collections as well as good variations of them.
It’s also obvious that preference in a score is subjective but there are indeed objective qualities with regards to caliber, one of which this encapsulates rather well:

Dragon Ball Z is simply a continuation of Dragon Ball, which had a soundtrack inspired by Wuxia cinema of the 1960's. It was anachronistic even in 1986. The only way this argument really works is if you remove all context from the series, and, again, use it as a vehicle to drive up viewership of children.

How much that matters to one, however, is subjective.
Not only that, I’ve seen people go beyond the boundaries of opinion when talking about it lots of times, so actions do have reactions.

The singular purpose of "modernizing" the series existed during the mid-late 90's, and only if you are a corporation whose sole goal with marketing the series is to target young kids. There's no evidence that the Faulconer soundtrack had any effect whatsoever on its popularity. I don't remember, as an eight-year-old, ever noticing background music. Although my case is anecdotal, I can't imagine I'm alone. Especially when you consider the actual evidence which is that every other country on Earth that the series was successful in left the music intact. Kikuchi's score is an integral part of the whole package that gives the series its magic. I don't imagine anyone being put off by it if they're adequately charmed by all the other quirky elements of the series.

Correct, every other country besides Anglophone North America kept the original score. Plus the “Faulconer” replacement came in late anyway so they were basically using the original score for 67 episodes before the replacement ever began.

[MasenkoHA]

Plus the “Faulconer” replacement came in late anyway so they were basically using the original score for 67 episodes before the replacement ever began.

What are you talking about? No, they were using a replacement score by Ron Wasserman for the first 67 episodes edited down to 53 then when they redubbed those episodes uncut they used a replacement score by Nathan Johnson

If there’s hate for it among dub fans, we can’t deny they have some good reasons to feel affronted. The Orange Brick dub is not the uncut version of what they saw on CN. People all have their own reasons for wanting to go back and watch the show. Some fans just want to see the old bad dub, but Funimation has disavowed it in favor of a slightly better product. ... Which (the OB redub) is not that much better. To the dub fans, basically: you can’t have the old bad dub, tasteless rubes, but you can have this piecemeal and rushed thing which no one asked for. And for them it’s only gotten worse since the Orange Bricks, since the only dub option on streaming services is the half-redub + Kikuchi audio.

If they took issue with the redubbing itself sure, but from what I’ve seen most of them aren’t even aware there was a difference as far as dialog redubbing goes.

[ABED]

Especially what makes people go so far as to attack those who say they may not like it. But I understand a bit more than I did then, even if my view didn’t change all that much. More silence and empty space in the series than most others.

Is this why you think people like it or merely prefer it to the replacement scores - silence? If so, that's reductive.

[GhostEmperorX]

Plus the “Faulconer” replacement came in late anyway so they were basically using the original score for 67 episodes before the replacement ever began.

What are you talking about? No, they were using a replacement score by Ron Wasserman for the first 67 episodes edited down to 53 then when they redubbed those episodes uncut they used a replacement score by Nathan Johnson

Oh, I didn’t know, the version of DBZ I’d watched didn’t have that replacement score but instead had the dub with the original score until episode 68 where it included not only the dub with the original score, but also Faulconer’s and the Japanese sub audio.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

So I have a question for you all. I grew up with Saban then Funimation DBZ meaning Shuki Levy/Faulconer. However, as a purist, I prefer to watch DBZ in its original Japanese format with voices and score.

I was talking to my friend a few days ago and he, despite never having read the manga, says he thinks Faulconer's score is more true to Toriyama's intentions than Kikuchi's score. What is the proper response to this? I told him that most of Funimation didn't even know who Toriyama was when they dubbed/rescored the show, and that he has never read the manga so he can't know what Toriyama intended. But I want something more definitive.

For the record, he thinks Kikuchi fits OG DB perfectly, but Faulconer does it properly with DBZ.

[MasenkoHA]

I was talking to my friend a few days ago and he, despite never having read the manga, says he thinks Faulconer's score is more true to Toriyama's intentions than Kikuchi's score. What is the proper response to this? I told him that most of Funimation didn't even know who Toriyama was when they dubbed/rescored the show, and that he has never read the manga so he can't know what Toriyama intended. But I want something more definitive.

Pretty sure Toriyama didn’t intend for his mid 80s-mid 90s manga to sound like something that could have b
only sounded like it came from the turn of the 21st century.


To also be fair who knows if Toriyama had any sort of music in mind when creating the manga.

For the record, he thinks Kikuchi fits OG DB perfectly, but Faulconer does it properly with DBZ.

Just tell him “It was all one manga there is no Dragon Ball Z outside of English translations there’s no reason for the music to change so drastically mid-story”


Of course the Kikuchi fit original Dragon Ball but Faulconer (who didn’t even score the first 67 episodes regardless) just perfectly fit Z is just more of the “this is how I grew up with it so it must be correct”

[Lord Beerus]

Absolutely fucking not. I've gone at length about why Faulconer score doesn't fit a show like Dragon Ball in the past, and I stand by it:

I find it laughable when people would consider the Faulconer score more suitable than Kikuchi''s score.

Despite what people may believe, Dragon Ball (Z) isn't just all about the action. There are quite a few modest, poignant, and calm-before-the-storm moments, and the proper music can help highlight those kinds of scenarios. Kikuchi''s score manages to does that and Faulconer's score doesn't. Kikuchi''s score provides the ambiance, delicacy and proper tone that helps elevates moments like Gohan training with Piccolo for the arrival of the Saiyans, Goku arriving and saving Gohan from being killed by Nappa, Goku gathering energy for the Genki Dama (in any scenario), Goku becoming a Super Saiyan for the first time, Vegeta sacrificing himself to kill Majin Boo and Goku killing Kid Boo with the Genki Dama.

Faulconer's score constantly goes for the big and bombastic direction with every track, and as such, any sort of proper harmony with the tone of the scene is lost and backgorund music consequentially also just feels like noise that just happens to playing while there is a scene going on. This is especially jarring, and personally quite grating, for moments where there doesn't need to be any music. Faulconer's score, and it's implementation of it, singlehandedly ruins one of the most powerful moments in the show with Gohan becoming a SSJ2. It's blaring and droning music destroys the ambiance of the scene. Making it less of a calm-before-the-storm moment that suddenly erupts into something powerful and triumphant, but instead feels like "screaming/action scene #52" with generic the music infused into it.

The Faulconer score doesn't do anything to elevate any moment in the show and make it stand out. Kikuchi''s score bring more out of the scene, with the music not just being great music on its own, but being very fitting for the context of the scene it was used in. As I stated before, Kikuchi''s score is diverse, which helped by the fact it was done by a live orchestra, so the tracks don't blend with each-other like Faulconer score does. Kikuchi''s score is the perfect mold for the kind of show Dragon Ball Z is. Faulconer's score would honestl fit more with a Transformers TV show from the 80s than marital arts wuxia influenced TV show like Dragon Ball Z.

[GhostEmperorX]

Especially what makes people go so far as to attack those who say they may not like it. But I understand a bit more than I did then, even if my view didn’t change all that much. More silence and empty space in the series than most others.

Is this why you think people like it or merely prefer it to the replacement scores - silence? If so, that's reductive.

Not really, no, it’s also because the score is done with a proper orchestra, but frankly there isn’t much else for me to even consider most of the tracks themselves as favorably as you do because one scale only (F minor) for so many soundtracks like the anachronism it was said to be (worse for me because I’m rather sensitive to details like this). Literally no other composer or score at the time or later had such a monotony going on. Couldn’t some pieces at least have been transposed to different keys or something so they don’t all sound basically the same? It’s ridiculously easy to do after the score is complete.

GhostEmperorX strongly believes that people here love and give credit to Kikuchi because they know very little about anime music in general

I'm not a massive anime fan, but I've seen my share, including some of the classics like Evangelion, Ghost In The Shell, and Yu Yu Hakusho. Kikuchi's score is definitely a standout. I don't remember any melodies from these shows the same way I do with Dragon Ball's OST.

How is this the case though? Is it because they’re products of their time or something? Or what exactly, if I’m being too presumptuous?

Team Faulconer's score may feel like a viable anime score, but it doesn't do anything for Dragon Ball. It would be great in some sci-fi or Mecha series though.

No, it wouldn’t work in a mecha series at all, especially given that a lot of them use traditional orchestra as well as synths and electric guitars. Percussion especially is an element that FP’s score is lacking in.

To also be fair who knows if Toriyama had any sort of music in mind when creating the manga.

That’s one thing I thought about, it’s Toriyama, maybe the kind of music I was suggesting wouldn’t even sit well with him at all in the first place, in which case nothing can be done about that.

Just tell him “It was all one manga there is no Dragon Ball Z outside of English translations there’s no reason for the music to change so drastically mid-story”

Wrong, because just like Naruto which came later and added “Shippūden” to the post-timeskip portion of the anime but remained just Naruto in the manga, the “Z” addition is literally something Toei added to the 2nd anime themselves.
Of course Dragon Ball was one name throughout the manga, but not so for the anime.
The manga can’t even have an OST to begin with, not to mention a lot of them being composed for the unrelated movies originally.

[MasenkoHA]

Wrong, because just like Naruto which came later and added “Shippūden” to the post-timeskip portion of the anime but remained just Naruto in the manga, the “Z” addition is literally something Toei added to the 2nd anime themselves.
Of course Dragon Ball was one name throughout the manga, but not so for the anime.

.........I was referring to the manga

[GhostEmperorX]

Wrong, because just like Naruto which came later and added “Shippūden” to the post-timeskip portion of the anime but remained just Naruto in the manga, the “Z” addition is literally something Toei added to the 2nd anime themselves.
Of course Dragon Ball was one name throughout the manga, but not so for the anime.

.........I was referring to the manga

I know, but do you think nobody actually knew that? OST’s can’t even be applied to manga because the anime always alters stuff, and a lot of them were made for the movies to begin with.

[MasenkoHA]

To add to this, isn't it enough that the score is actually still included at all on the Season Sets, despite all those legal issues that occurred? They could've easily left it out altogether.

Actually, come to think of it. What exactly were the results of that lawsuit anyway? I'm a little out of the loop with that one.

Did those legal issues and lawsuits amount to anything? I feel like nothing must have come from it since they’re able to include the Faulconer score at all.

I heard the lawsuit is the reason Funimation won’t use the Faulconer score for their streams but given how they don’t use the Menza version of GT either I think it’s just Funimation not wanting to be associated with replacement music in general and wanting to push their 16:9 remastered uncut dub with the Kikuchi score as their “truest version” or whatever.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

To add to this, isn't it enough that the score is actually still included at all on the Season Sets, despite all those legal issues that occurred? They could've easily left it out altogether.

Actually, come to think of it. What exactly were the results of that lawsuit anyway? I'm a little out of the loop with that one.

Did those legal issues and lawsuits amount to anything? I feel like nothing must have come from it since they’re able to include the Faulconer score at all.

I heard the lawsuit is the reason Funimation won’t use the Faulconer score for their streams but given how they don’t use the Menza version of GT either I think it’s just Funimation not wanting to be associated with replacement music in general and wanting to push their 16:9 remastered uncut dub with the Kikuchi score as their “truest version” or whatever.

Hmm that's interesting as i didn't know the streaming versions didn't include them, so that makes the replacement scores home video exclusive at this point.

[GhostEmperorX]

Anyway, as a Japanese DB fan-

Wait, you’re Japanese yourself? That changes everything then. Since it’s your country we’re talking about (and only your country).

[Zestanor]

What’s this about F minor? Call me a rube, but only someone with perfect pitch is really going to notice which minor key a piece is in, or someone who has been trained to associate certain frequencies to with certain moods according to the musical tradition (which is entirely subjective).

[PremiumSalt]

To add to this, isn't it enough that the score is actually still included at all on the Season Sets, despite all those legal issues that occurred? They could've easily left it out altogether.

Actually, come to think of it. What exactly were the results of that lawsuit anyway? I'm a little out of the loop with that one.

Did those legal issues and lawsuits amount to anything? I feel like nothing must have come from it since they’re able to include the Faulconer score at all.

I heard the lawsuit is the reason Funimation won’t use the Faulconer score for their streams but given how they don’t use the Menza version of GT either I think it’s just Funimation not wanting to be associated with replacement music in general and wanting to push their 16:9 remastered uncut dub with the Kikuchi score as their “truest version” or whatever.

FUNimationNow, which is I'm pretty sure the only place to stream the GT dub, uses the Menza score.

[GhostEmperorX]

What’s this about F minor? Call me a rube, but only someone with perfect pitch is really going to notice which minor key a piece is in, or someone who has been trained to associate certain frequencies to with certain moods according to the musical tradition (which is entirely subjective).

You just described my situation, but even before I realized it, I noticed they sounded rather similar.
Also, for the sake of neutrality between Ab Major and F minor names, let’s just call it the 4-flat key signature.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

To add to this, isn't it enough that the score is actually still included at all on the Season Sets, despite all those legal issues that occurred? They could've easily left it out altogether.

Actually, come to think of it. What exactly were the results of that lawsuit anyway? I'm a little out of the loop with that one.

Did those legal issues and lawsuits amount to anything? I feel like nothing must have come from it since they’re able to include the Faulconer score at all.

I heard the lawsuit is the reason Funimation won’t use the Faulconer score for their streams but given how they don’t use the Menza version of GT either I think it’s just Funimation not wanting to be associated with replacement music in general and wanting to push their 16:9 remastered uncut dub with the Kikuchi score as their “truest version” or whatever.

FUNimationNow, which is I'm pretty sure the only place to stream the GT dub, uses the Menza score.

Though it's still most likely to be the Green Brick version with the dubbed Dan Dan on the opening and the dubbed editions of the four ED songs, which obviously means that Step Into the Grand Tour isn't there though of course i have already said before that it was a god awful crap fire of an opening theme which clearly reflected the reversioning hardcore, edgy mindset that FUNi had circa 2003 so good riddance and i'm glad they ditched it later on when revisiting GT for the season releases.

[GhostEmperorX]

I don’t know why sounding older has to mean bad.

One more thing BTW, going off of this, do you think using animation or filming standards from the 60’s or 70’s would be acceptable in the later decades even now?