General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

[Zestanor]

The anime & manga are in 2 different timelines, just as the movies & most of the specials are, as is GT, which follows more in the footsteps of the anime than the manga by either referencing or outright saying.

If we ignore GT, the TV specials, and the movies for a second, you can see more clearly what I’m saying. The point of the anime was to render the manga as faithfully as possible for television, and generally they were successful. Wherever the anime deviates from the manga: 1. the paucity of these cases are the exceptions that prove the rule, and 2. they only exist for padding. There is no motive besides padding.

At most, occasionally the anime “breaks out” from the manga timeline to do its own thing for a few minutes, then falls back in. But for 90% of screen time, the manga and anime are completely identical. This makes it a stretch to say they are in two different continuities.

(GT/movies is its own thing. Clearly those were made for their own sakes, not for padding the manga.)

In other words, it is hardly possible (perhaps impossible) for someone to separate the manga and the anime in their headspace, except when it comes to exceptional filler, which is rare.

[KBABZ]

(GT/movies is its own thing. Clearly those were made for their own sakes, not for padding the manga.)

In other words, it is hardly possible (perhaps impossible) for someone to separate the manga and the anime in their headspace, except when it comes to exceptional filler, which is rare.

Huh, to me GT is the proof that the anime is its own timeline since it connects directly to Z.

There are significant points in the anime that do contradict or deviate from the anime. For example, even in non-filler Goku's fight against Frieza is much less one-sided than it is in the manga, not to mention the introduction of lava which wasn't originally present either. There's also that bit much later where it's stated that King Cold is more powerful than Frieza, where in the manga they're said to be about equal. Or Trunks specifying 19 and 20 in the manga, or...

[Zestanor]

Huh, to me GT is the proof that the anime is its own timeline since it connects directly to Z.

GT connects directly to Z, but EoZ (identical in anime and manga) does not connect directly to GT. There’s nothing in the last few episodes of Z to hype up a continuation. Pan and Trunks, for example, don’t get extra attention in that part of the anime, and the ending narration doesn’t say “come back next week for GT.” The only connection between EoZ and GT is the Next Episode Preview. GT works as a continuation of the manga just as well as it works as a continuation of the Z anime. Likewise, it’s just as unnecessary for someone who watched the anime as someone who read the manga.

There are significant points in the anime that do contradict or deviate from the anime. For example, even in non-filler Goku's fight against Frieza is much less one-sided than it is in the manga, not to mention the introduction of lava which wasn't originally present either. There's also that bit much later where it's stated that King Cold is more powerful than Frieza, where in the manga they're said to be about equal. Or Trunks specifying 19 and 20 in the manga, or...

About the Freeza fight: I suspect they didn’t have the intention to deviate. They were in a bind for that stretch of episodes, because they were right up against the manga. And in the manga, that fight is more action-driven than any other part. It was probably the hardest thing to adapt to animation. “There was lava” is the biggest deviation not related to padding, but that’s hardly significant.

They changed that line of Trunks’ dialogue (perhaps the only line not rendered verbatim from the manga) because it did not make any sense in the manga. They were playing damage control for Toriyama.

I consider these exceptions to prove the rule: the anime is intended to tell the exact same story as the manga, and besides a few glitches, it does this. The anime and manga are far too identical episode by episode, chapter by chapter, to be considered separate timelines. The fact that Kai could be made just by trimming the filler proves that the anime is the same as the manga.

[MasenkoHA]

GT connects directly to Z, but EoZ (identical in anime and manga) does not connect directly to GT. There’s nothing in the last few episodes of Z to hype up a continuation.

What are you even on about? Z ends with Goku taking Oob to train. GT begins with Goku sparring with Oob. GT connects directly with how Z ended.

Pan and Trunks, for example, don’t get extra attention in that part of the anime, and the ending narration doesn’t say “come back next week for GT.”

So what? Character prominence goes in and out. The ending narration for Dragon Ball didn’t say “Come back next week for Z” they said the next adventure begins 5 years from now and played a preview for Z episode 1.

Why does the narrator need to mention GT when the next episode preview for GT plays right after?

. GT works as a continuation of the manga just as well as it works as a continuation of the Z anime.

For the most part yes although movie exclusive villains show up in cameo scenes in GT.

They changed that line of Trunks’ dialogue (perhaps the only line not rendered verbatim from the manga) because it did not make any sense in the manga. They were playing damage control for Toriyama.

. The anime and manga are far too identical episode by episode, chapter by chapter, to be considered separate timelines. .

The anime is an adaptation of the manga. That’s it. It’s that simple.

[Zestanor]

(I think the lack of a mention of GT in Z 291 proper proves that the Z anime was only interested in adapting the manga verbatim, but this isn’t the crux of my argument.)

I’m trying to make a technical point that it’s irrational to separate the story as told and presented in the manga and the story as told and presented in the anime. It’s the same story, down to the choreography and background artwork. The medium is different, but the contents are far too nearly identical to be considered alternate universes, which is a mental construct we use, ultimately, to help us ignore, smooth over, or rectify inconsistencies and continue the willing suspension of disbelief.

“Not the same canon” (alternate universe) is the nuclear option of maintaining the willing suspension of disbelief. There are far, far less drastic approaches that should be used first. It is overkill to assert two separate canons. Instead, we should say there’s one canon, but recognize occasional deviations from a real unity.

The opposite would be true, by the way (from what I’ve heard) regarding DBS and Battle of Gods. Those are different enough that there’s no believable way those are the same without proposing a trope like “alternate universe” or “unreliable narrator.” In other words, the differences are not accidental, but fundamental.

[KBABZ]

What I'm getting at with this distinction is that I think it's a big mistake to assume the anime has any bearing back onto the manga, which is what a LOT of people do (the anime IS more beloved than the manga in ANY region of the world, after all). For me that just doesn't work because they aren't written by the same people despite the anime's panel-for-panel adaptation style. There's just going to be inherent differences between the two.

I think the only thing from the anime that we can recursively apply back to the manga is the voice artists from the opening two arcs, particularly Goku, since they were personally selected by Toriyama and he's said that after Nozawa was cast, that was the voice he'd hear in his head when writing the manga itself.

[Zestanor]

What I'm getting at with this distinction is that I think it's a big mistake to assume the anime has any bearing back onto the manga,

What’s an example of this? (Like Blue being a pedophile?)

Also let me throw a monkey wrench into all of this: I think the Funi dub is the same canon as the Japanese version, but that dub errors shouldn’t be applied to the source material.

[Scsigs]

Also let me throw a monkey wrench into all of this: I think the Funi dub is the same canon as the Japanese version, but that dub errors shouldn’t be applied to the source material.

Dub errors are more concrete than filler or minor changes to how scenes are played, but they're not too different, honestly. It's stuff added on to or changed from the source material. They're added on to the material already presented in a specific way.

[Matches Malone]

A reminder that as far as Toei are concerned, there is no "canon", they're completely unconcerned about the subject.

When promoting Broly, they said something along the lines of Toriyama finally introducing Broly and Gogeta into the main timeline/canon. They may not have cared years ago, but their statement on those 2 characters tells a different story about their thoughts now.

If no one cared about "canon", they wouldn't have gone out of their way to re-introduce Broly in Super, and would've instead just brought back the original back to life.

As far as Toei and Toriyama are concerned, the only things that are taken into account while coming up with new stories are the original manga (Pilaf-Buu) and the stories currently being written by Toriyama. That's DB's current canon. If anything else is to be taken into account (old movies, GT, games, etc.), it'll be developed from the ground up instead of taking the original version into account, just as the 3 Broly movies were left behind in favor of a new version.

[Grimlock]

This is one of the many reasons Future Trunks saga was a complete waste. I mean, if at least they had done what Xenoverse 2 did, we wouldn't still be having these debates by now, or at least, not with so many polarized expectations.

The tools were already there at their disposal, Toriyama had already established the alternate dimension concept (in-universe). Goku Black opened up a rift in the sky that could have lead anywhere... All you needed to do was playing the cards right. To use, correctly, the tools that were already there. Not that I think canon would truly be gone, there will always be those crazy about it unfortunately, but with a little hope, this wouldn't pop up quite often. And we wouldn't have to put up with people thinking their "headcanon" to be official/fact or something. Lots of missed opportunities.

[Xeogran]

For the most part yes although movie exclusive villains show up in cameo scenes in GT.

I should check this out, but I recall it was only Cooler, in that one scene above. Not sure whose idea it was to put him in, but that's honestly the one contradiction I know. And who's to say Cooler didn't get killed by someone else in this timeline? He didn't need to have the same story from Movie 5.

[ABED]

Why does anyone want alternate realities/dimensions?

[Xeogran]

Why does anyone want alternate realities/dimensions?

I know it's a mess, but it's already been done in videogames and Heroes anime, and nothing we can do about that.
I also do prefer it when the story was just a normal line of events.

[Zestanor]

Why does anyone want alternate realities/dimensions?

That’s Trunks’s fault for time-traveling back in 1991...
(Or, was it Cell who time traveled first? Chronologically Trunks was first, but logically Cell was prior, or something like that.)

[Psajdak]

Why does anyone want alternate realities/dimensions?

Because more possibilities.

[Grimlock]

Not sure whose idea it was to put him in, but that's honestly the one contradiction I know.

What contradiction?

And who's to say Cooler didn't get killed by someone else in this timeline? He didn't need to have the same story from Movie 5.

That would be an assumption, though. We must work with what we have, and what we have are his movies.

[Xeogran]

What contradiction?

Neither of Cooler movies fitting in the anime timeline. Movie 5 would be almost fine, if Gohan didn't have a tail and looked older than he was. Also Goku was having too much difficulty turning SSJ in there.

[MasenkoHA]

if Gohan didn't have a tail and looked older than he was. Also Goku was having too much difficulty turning SSJ in there.

If Goku’s tail could grow back twice on its own and need intervention from God to finally remove it for good Gohan’s tail could grow back during the three year gap before the cyborgs. He has his Namek era bowl cut but oh well Chi Chi gave him the stupid haircut twice I guess.

Goku’s dramatic Super Saiyan transformation could be chalked up to dramatic storytelling.

[ABED]

Why does anyone want alternate realities/dimensions?

Because more possibilities.

Such as?

[Scsigs]

For the most part yes although movie exclusive villains show up in cameo scenes in GT.

Spoiler:

I should check this out, but I recall it was only Cooler, in that one scene above. Not sure whose idea it was to put him in, but that's honestly the one contradiction I know. And who's to say Cooler didn't get killed by someone else in this timeline? He didn't need to have the same story from Movie 5.

That moment was weird. Granted, GT influences several other things from anime-only stuff & the entire arc's a rip-off of Fusion Reborn, so I'm not surprised they got carried away with that.
However, with his original design getting used & him being in his final form, the animators & producers just expected the audience to remember at least his first movie & how he died there to fill in the blanks.

Why does anyone want alternate realities/dimensions?

It's not like we WANT them, but that's just the easiest way to explain away everything that was made separate from the manga like the first 17 DB films, filler, & other stuff. It's the current official stance of the franchise anyways, so it's not like it's coming out of nowhere. Especially as they're cherry-picking things to reboot in the main one they depict nowadays.