Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

[Cure Dragon 255]

When I was a wee lass I was a part of the generation that grew up trying to fight for uncut Dragon Ball and other cartoons, Yuugi-Ou! included. It always blows my mind that I am now old enough for younger folks to have grown up on 4Kids dubs and actually like them.

I have become a grandmother...

I know the last thing anyone should do is say a woman is old...but...

This is too cute...Julie-obaachan.

[GhostEmperorX]

-snip-

Also, forgive my rudeness earlier, I didn’t even realize you were quite the legendary figure on the net in these circles as well as being one of the main factors in Yamamoto finally getting exposed.

Watching JP DB with the broadcast audio really changes my initial thoughts on the Kikuchi score.
While I still don’t quite think it’s up there with the best of proper instrumental scores then, it does work with the show and isn’t as badly produced as I thought it was. Guess Toei’s 100% to blame for such a perception seeing as what they did to the proper audio. And the compositions themselves can be appreciated more.

[Planetnamek]

-snip-

Also, forgive my rudeness earlier, I didn’t even realize you were quite the legendary figure on the net in these circles as well as being one of the main factors in Yamamoto finally getting exposed.

Watching JP DB with the broadcast audio really changes my initial thoughts on the Kikuchi score.
While I still don’t quite think it’s up there with the best of proper instrumental scores then, it does work with the show and isn’t as badly produced as I thought it was. Guess Toei’s 100% to blame for such a perception seeing as what they did to the proper audio. And the compositions themselves can be appreciated more.

Whoa hold the phone, Kei was the reason Yamamoto got outed for being a plagiarist? Holy crap, I never knew that! Good job on doing that, I sure as hell never would've noticed the plagiarizing myself.

[GhostEmperorX]

-snip-

Also, forgive my rudeness earlier, I didn’t even realize you were quite the legendary figure on the net in these circles as well as being one of the main factors in Yamamoto finally getting exposed.

Watching JP DB with the broadcast audio really changes my initial thoughts on the Kikuchi score.
While I still don’t quite think it’s up there with the best of proper instrumental scores then, it does work with the show and isn’t as badly produced as I thought it was. Guess Toei’s 100% to blame for such a perception seeing as what they did to the proper audio. And the compositions themselves can be appreciated more.

Whoa hold the phone, Kei was the reason Yamamoto got outed for being a plagiarist? Holy crap, I never knew that! Good job on doing that, I sure as hell never would've noticed the plagiarizing myself.

He was mentioned on VegettoEX’s features on here, as well as mentioning that it was him who was one of the first to do a video on Yamamoto’s plagiarism.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Yamamoto: "And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!"

[GhostEmperorX]

Yamamoto: "And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!"

Perfect especially considering basically 20 years of this from him.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

Kei17 is quite legendary on this forum. He lives in Japan and has contacts with Toei, it seems.

1. He is rumored to have the broadcast audio for Dragon Ball and won't release it (like he wouldn't with DBZ).
2. He had the broadcast audio for all of DBZ and wouldn't give it up. He only tried giving it to Toei, and they had one of their automated response e-mails basically ignore him.
3. He has an entire film reel for an episode of Dragon Ball. He even made a YouTube video on it showing a bit of the remastering process. Naturally, he (one man) tried remastering an episode and ended up doing a better job than Toei (a huge corporation). Just shows how shitty they are. (I can't find the video or I'd link it. It's cool)
4. He (apparently) is a key factor in getting Kenji Yamamoto exposed for plagiarism, although this is the first I'm hearing of it. I always heard it was simply stealing from Avatar and Terminator Salvation that got Toei's attention.

He's a cool guy, but a bit of an asshole for not sharing the broadcast audio with the community like that one girl did once she got it all. But I will look at the glass as half full and be glad we got at least DBZ with broadcast audio instead of neither series with it.

Watching JP DB with the broadcast audio really changes my initial thoughts on the Kikuchi score.

This is something I've been wondering for a while. Anyone think that a part of the reason some people hate the Japanese score for Z so much is that they're listening to optical audio which sounds like shit in general?

When I was a wee lass I was a part of the generation that grew up trying to fight for uncut Dragon Ball and other cartoons, Yuugi-Ou! included. It always blows my mind that I am now old enough for younger folks to have grown up on 4Kids dubs and actually like them.

I was the same. My generation loved Yu-Gi-Oh! and I got super into it, but I was one of many who hated all of the edits 4Kids did to it. Now as an adult, I'm ashamed that there are people on here who like what 4Kids did. I don't care if they made it more popular, they did a horrible thing to the show that was completely faithless to the original version. I may have enjoyed the hell out of it, but 4Kids Yu-Gi-Oh! is shit.

I agree with your friend on Yu-Gi-Oh, I honestly do think 4Kids did a pretty good job with it all things considered.

Oh yeah, pointing fingers at people and turning saws that will cut your legs off into energy disks that send you to the "Shadow Realm" is a great job. /s

[10gigtriforce]

This is something I've been wondering for a while. Anyone think that a part of the reason some people hate the Japanese score for Z so much is that they're listening to optical audio which sounds like shit in general?

I'd be shocked if it wasnt part of it. yeah 16mm optical audio isnt the best even in the best of conditions(usually losing out to even more meh condition 35mm optical) but toei's was already horribly degraded by the time they digitized it - which wasnt for lack of ability, the dbz movies all got digitized sound tracks for their laserdiscs, as did the sailor moon series, which is why those still sound good on newer releases. they can go back to the digital audio from back in the day- so on of already being low tier audio it was also left for dead then the corpse reanimated.


sure i dont hate the faulconer and friends score, but the Japanese Z score is being held back by toei

[Planetnamek]

You joke but when you really think about it, the Shadow Realm kind of is a fate worse then death really. TVTropes has a whole page on Woolseyism(I.E. things a dub did that improves on the original) for the 4Kids dub and I agree with them:https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... ism/YuGiOh

Yes the gun censorship looks silly, but that's not really 4Kids fault, you can blame the FCC and network TV censors for that one as they are usually pretty fiercely against realistic firearms being depicted in any form in kids shows.

I also liked 4Kids dubs of Sonic X and Kirby.

And yes I do believe the crappy audio for the original version of DBZ played a major part in a decent chunk of people that grew up watching the dub preferring the Faulconer soundtrack.

[ABED]

I don't know if I or anyone else has made this point, but it feels like it's less the score than it is the show itself and the Faulconer score got residual goodwill from fans. Combine that with nostalgia and it's a potent mix.

[jjgp1112]

He's a cool guy, but a bit of an asshole for not sharing the broadcast audio with the community like that one girl did once she got it all.

Jesus Christ, people.

Kei is under NO obligation to share the audio. NONE. Fan entitlement is a moronic fucking thing.

[MasenkoHA]

This is something I've been wondering for a while. Anyone think that a part of the reason some people hate the Japanese score for Z so much is that they're listening to optical audio which sounds like shit in general?

No, there was no hate for it until Funimation started pushing their Z dub with it. There was no hate for it when it was kept in their Dragon Ball dub or when the first two Z movies aired with the Japanese music on Toonami.

The hate for the Kikuchi score is mUh NoStAlGiA!!!!!1! nothing more nothing less.

I was the same. My generation loved Yu-Gi-Oh! and I got super into it, but I was one of many who hated all of the edits 4Kids did to it. Now as an adult, I'm ashamed that there are people on here who like what 4Kids did. I don't care if they made it more popular, they did a horrible thing to the show that was completely faithless to the original version. I may have enjoyed the hell out of it, but 4Kids Yu-Gi-Oh! is shit.

I was in a similar boat. I was a fan of the show from 4th-6th grade and was quickly made aware of how I was watching a heavily ridiculously censored version and would download Japanese episodes on Kazaa and buy the uncensored Shonen Jump manga and I’d whine to anyone who would listen how we were getting a heavily censored dub with shitty replacement music and stupid voice acting.

Now as an adult, I’m more ashamed I was ever into Yu-gi-oh in the first place. No amount of characters threatening each other with death could change the fact that its a shameless commercial plug in for a card game where everyone treats Magic the Gathering for grade schoolers as the most popular thing in the world and also like most shonen series it doesn’t beat you over the head with themes of friendship as much as it violently assaults you and spits in your face with it.

[MasenkoHA]

Yes the gun censorship looks silly, but that's not really 4Kids fault, you can blame the FCC and network TV censors for that one as they are usually pretty fiercely against realistic firearms being depicted in any form in kids shows.

Justice League, Static Shock, The New Batman Adventures, Superman the animated series, Batman Beyond. Also the edited form of Dragon Ball.

Just a handful of cartoons that aired around Yu-gi-oh’s time that had no problem with showing realistic firearms. There was no FCC guidelines against it.

And yes I do believe the crappy audio for the original version of DBZ played a major part in a decent chunk of people that grew up watching the dub preferring the Faulconer soundtrack.

Somehow I doubt people who grew up with this shit:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnriaELk_pw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EdGa-2BSFiI

[url] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2kFF2vOynUo[/url

And think it was the most epic thing ever are that critical on things like audio quality.

[10gigtriforce]

He's a cool guy, but a bit of an asshole for not sharing the broadcast audio with the community like that one girl did once she got it all.

Jesus Christ, people.

Kei is under NO obligation to share the audio. NONE. Fan entitlement is a moronic fucking thing.

Didnt some of his tapes come from people giving him tapes so the audio would be sent out?

[GhostEmperorX]

Kei17 is quite legendary on this forum. He lives in Japan and has contacts with Toei, it seems.

2. He had the broadcast audio for all of DBZ and wouldn't give it up. He only tried giving it to Toei, and they had one of their automated response e-mails basically ignore him.
3. He has an entire film reel for an episode of Dragon Ball. He even made a YouTube video on it showing a bit of the remastering process. Naturally, he (one man) tried remastering an episode and ended up doing a better job than Toei (a huge corporation). Just shows how shitty they are. (I can't find the video or I'd link it. It's cool)

Really not surprised at any of this considering the company we're talking about. Not even sure why so many go to them to have their series adapted or why they have so many iconic titles in the first place that they consistently fail to manage.

He's a cool guy, but a bit of an asshole for not sharing the broadcast audio with the community like that one girl did once she got it all. But I will look at the glass as half full and be glad we got at least DBZ with broadcast audio instead of neither series with it.

Who knows, maybe he just isn't willing to risk any negative encounters with law enforcement in Japan who crack down hard on piracy or anything that can be construed as such, though it likely wouldn't have come to this if Toei didn't take double the number of steps backwards as it does forward.

This is something I've been wondering for a while. Anyone think that a part of the reason some people hate the Japanese score for Z so much is that they're listening to optical audio which sounds like shit in general?

That may be it, in which case Toei is largely to blame once again.

[XanatosVanBadass]

I don't know if I or anyone else has made this point, but it feels like it's less the score than it is the show itself and the Faulconer score got residual goodwill from fans. Combine that with nostalgia and it's a potent mix.

Exactly my thoughts. These fans go on and on about how “epic” Perfect Cell’s theme is when in reality, it’s repetitive garbage by any standard. Cell is the epic one and you people associate that with his theme. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a fanbase in anime that’s as outright hostile towards the original Japanese like DBZEE fanboys. Not even Robotech fans.

[GhostEmperorX]

Exactly my thoughts. These fans go on and on about how “epic” Perfect Cell’s theme is when in reality, it’s repetitive garbage by any standard. Cell is the epic one and you people associate that with his theme. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a fanbase in anime that’s as outright hostile towards the original Japanese like DBZEE fanboys. Not even Robotech fans.

Even the SSJ3 theme is extremely simplistic, most of it is just the first 5 notes of C minor.
Meanwhile the popular DB clone anime aren't perceived anywhere near the same light when it comes to their original versions.

No, there was no hate for it until Funimation started pushing their Z dub with it. There was no hate for it when it was kept in their Dragon Ball dub or when the first two Z movies aired with the Japanese music on Toonami.

There was also none in other parts of the world that had it and didn't replace anything. Even the Ocean dub apparently didn't completely replace it, it just fused it with some of their own tracks.

[Planetnamek]

Yes the gun censorship looks silly, but that's not really 4Kids fault, you can blame the FCC and network TV censors for that one as they are usually pretty fiercely against realistic firearms being depicted in any form in kids shows.

Justice League, Static Shock, The New Batman Adventures, Superman the animated series, Batman Beyond. Also the edited form of Dragon Ball.

Just a handful of cartoons that aired around Yu-gi-oh’s time that had no problem with showing realistic firearms. There was no FCC guidelines against it.

And yes I do believe the crappy audio for the original version of DBZ played a major part in a decent chunk of people that grew up watching the dub preferring the Faulconer soundtrack.

Somehow I doubt people who grew up with this shit:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnriaELk_pw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EdGa-2BSFiI

[url] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2kFF2vOynUo[/url

And think it was the most epic thing ever are that critical on things like audio quality.

I fail to see how liking Faulconer's soundtrack automatically means one isn't critical on things like audio quality, that makes zero sense

Also this notion that "nostalgia" is the ONLY possible reason that someone could be kind of eh on the original score is blatantly false , you've got absolutely no possible of way proving that for an absolute cold hard fact.

I don't know if I or anyone else has made this point, but it feels like it's less the score than it is the show itself and the Faulconer score got residual goodwill from fans. Combine that with nostalgia and it's a potent mix.

Exactly my thoughts. These fans go on and on about how “epic” Perfect Cell’s theme is when in reality, it’s repetitive garbage by any standard. Cell is the epic one and you people associate that with his theme. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a fanbase in anime that’s as outright hostile towards the original Japanese like DBZEE fanboys. Not even Robotech fans.

Blatantly false, it's bad by YOUR standard, not everyone else's. This kind of nonsense is what always annoys me about these kinds of debates-the purists insisting their opinions are somehow superior and more "correct" then those that disagree with them

Sorry but hating the dub score does not make you special or unique, this isn't 1999 anymore, the dub is long since over and even Funi themselves stopped using that score, so I fail to see how still remaining angry and bitter towards people that unironically like it is going to solve anything.

I fail to see how preferring one score over another somehow equals being "hostile" towards it

If i'm "hostile" to anyone it's towards Toei for not taking better care of their own properties and allowing Funi to show them up by having better audio quality, I guarantee you if we'd had the original broadcast audio there wouldn't be nearly as many debates in regards to the score as there are now.

FYI I barely even noticed the score as a kid, I was too focused on the action to really pay much attention to the music, it wasn't until rewatching it as an adult a few years ago that I really paid any attention to the score and I found that I liked it quite a bit and I do listen to it outside of the show(hell I was just listening to it last night while playing a game). So at least for me it's definitely not a case of nostalgia(BTW I do get ever so tired of sub purists constantly throwing that word around as if it's the only possible explanation for liking a dub ).

I also find it amusing how many people stereotype the Funi soundtrack as being nothing but hardcore rock and techno when in reality that's far from being the case as there are plenty of slower and more melodic moments as well.

[MasenkoHA]

. Even the Ocean dub apparently didn't completely replace it, it just fused it with some of their own tracks.

With the exception of the 3 movies under Pioneer any dub with the Ocean cast completely replaced the music.

[MasenkoHA]

I fail to see how liking Faulconer's soundtrack automatically means one isn't critical on things like audio quality, that makes zero sense

I wasn’t talking about the Faulconer music I was talking specifically about the poor audio quality and sound mixing of the 1999 dub in general.

Also this notion that "nostalgia" is the ONLY possible reason that someone could be kind of eh on the original score is blatantly false , you've got absolutely no possible of way proving that for an absolute cold hard fact.

That’s not what I said at all. I said nostalgia is the reason the Japanese music gets hate NOW. And it is true because again there wasn’t this large amount of hate for it from Dragon Brawl Zeeeeee fans when it was used in the Dragon Ball dub or Dead Zone and World’s Strongest. Again it was only around the orange bricks did the hate for the Japanese music come up and only because it was “replacing the music they grew up” ergo nostalgia.

Had Funimation not been so stupid as to change the music (inb4 whatever excuse it was a decision they clearly made and there was no good reason to do so) at worst the average reaction to the Kikuchi score would be “meh” not this asinine “the music is gay” “the music sounds like Looney Tunes “ “the music isn’t epic like Faulconer. Bruce Faulconer made Dragon Ball Z” “the mUsIc fiT dRaGoN BalL bUt nOt zEeeE!”