Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

[10gigtriforce]

The Piccolo saga ends in a martial arts tournament. In Dragon Ball, the fighting is more skilled base - sweeps, counters, strategy, etc. etc.

in DBZ, it's all about power and brawling. That's why martial arts music works when Goku fights Tenshinhan, but not when Goku fights Furiza.

DBZ also has strategy, there are counters and techniques. When Goku is fighting Freeza he gets Freeza to cut himself in half by dodging his techniques then obscuring his vision. In the Cell arc, Goku fights Cell so Gohan can observe the way Cell fights.

Goku and Vegeta's whole mentality are those of martial artists.

In DBZ, martial arts is replaced primarily by power ups (Kaio-Ken, SSJ, fusions) and power levels.

In DB, Goku defeats his enemies by being stronger and better than they are with some help. I fail to see how someone like Tao Pai Pai is fundamentally different than Freeza. Goku loses his first fight against the hitman because he's not as strong. He wins the second fight because he trains and becomes stronger. Becoming stronger is a part of martial arts.

goku literally drinks make me strong water in dragon ball to beat piccolo

[ABED]

In DB, Goku trained in martial arts for the sake of learning skill (such as to win tournaments). in DBZ, they train because of an imminent Saiyan invasion. It was to raise their power levels.

1 - not important to whether it's martial arts, and 2 - more importantly, martial arts can be used in both competition AND self-defense.

[McDonaldsGuy]

Goku and Vegeta's whole mentality are those of martial artists.

In DBZ, martial arts is replaced primarily by power ups (Kaio-Ken, SSJ, fusions) and power levels.

In DB, Goku defeats his enemies by being stronger and better than they are with some help. I fail to see how someone like Tao Pai Pai is fundamentally different than Freeza. Goku loses his first fight against the hitman because he's not as strong. He wins the second fight because he trains and becomes stronger. Becoming stronger is a part of martial arts.

Being stronger doesn't mean you have the mentality of a martial artist. Vegeta wants to be the strongest more for selfish reasons for example.

Tao Pai Pai is just one small part of Dragon Ball. I am not saying DBZ has no martial arts, I am just saying it's not martial arts primarily. DBZ also has comedy and romance, but like martial arts, they just play a small part.

By the way, Tao Pai Pai WAS based on martial arts. he trained Tenshinhan in the Crane School. Total opposite of Furiza. If anything, using Tao Pai Pai - a literal martial arts master - proves my point even more.

[ABED]

Being stronger doesn't mean you have the mentality of a martial artist. Vegeta wants to be the strongest more for selfish reasons for example.

Martial artists can't be douchebags? Vegeta wants to be the best and wants everyone to know it, but he still has the mentality of a martial artist. He wants to win without relying on anyone else. He doesn't like throwing away his pride.

By the way, Tao Pai Pai WAS based on martial arts. he trained Tenshinhan in the Crane School. Total opposite of Furiza. If anything, using Tao Pai Pai - a literal martial arts master - proves my point even more.

What the hell does having a teacher have to do with martial arts? So what if Freeza didn't have to train to use ki? Oh wait, I forgot, ki isn't martial arts.

In the Saiyan arc, there is strategy during the battle against Raditz. Goku fights Raditz to keep him occupied as Piccolo gathers energy for a time consuming technique.

Your conception of what does and doesn't qualify as martial arts is ignorant.

[McDonaldsGuy]

Being stronger doesn't mean you have the mentality of a martial artist. Vegeta wants to be the strongest more for selfish reasons for example.

Martial artists can't be douchebags? Vegeta wants to be the best and wants everyone to know it, but he still has the mentality of a martial artist. He wants to win without relying on anyone else. He doesn't like throwing away his pride.

By the way, Tao Pai Pai WAS based on martial arts. he trained Tenshinhan in the Crane School. Total opposite of Furiza. If anything, using Tao Pai Pai - a literal martial arts master - proves my point even more.

What the hell does having a teacher have to do with martial arts? So what if Freeza didn't have to train to use ki? Oh wait, I forgot, ki isn't martial arts.

In the Saiyan arc, there is strategy during the battle against Raditz. Goku fights Raditz to keep him occupied as Piccolo gathers energy for a time consuming technique.

Vegeta's pride has to do with his heritage, not his martial arts skills. Tao Pai Pai is an example of a martial artist who trains for evil reasons. He's a literal martial artist (not sure why you used him as your example, his brother is literally a Roshi-level martial artist).

In DBZ, the fights are more brawl-based and energy-ki based. Thus, I think the music should reflect this. it's why the martial arts music works great when Goku fights martial artist Tao Pai Pai, but when Goku fights Furiza it should be more action-based.

[ABED]

His race is a race of martial artists!

energy-ki based.

Ki is a martial arts concept.

[McDonaldsGuy]

His race is a race of martial artists!

energy-ki based.

Ki is a martial arts concept.

his race is a race of warriors/brutes. If anything, the Saiyans are the OPPOSITE of martial arts.

[ABED]

His race is a race of martial artists!

energy-ki based.

Ki is a martial arts concept.

his race is a race of warriors/brutes. If anything, the Saiyans are the OPPOSITE of martial arts.

Warriors and brutes that use martial arts. What is martial arts in your opinion?

[McDonaldsGuy]

His race is a race of martial artists!


Ki is a martial arts concept.

his race is a race of warriors/brutes. If anything, the Saiyans are the OPPOSITE of martial arts.

Warriors and brutes that use martial arts. What is martial arts in your opinion?

Just because they use martial arts, doesn't mean it's martial arts based. It's very different.

Martial arts is a disciplined form. Dragon Ball isn't based on martial arts because they fight. It's because they become martial artists. Martial arts is heavily based on tradition and a SYSTEM. That's the key. This is why Cell blows up the ring - because simple martial arts wasn't going to work. it had to be an all out brawl (and in the end, that's how Cell died).

Karate, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, etc. etc. are all martial arts. In DBZ, it's more all out brawls and energy blasts. Very little actual martial arts are used. In the first movie (Return Gohan), there IS quite a bit of martial arts. Same with the second movie (World's Strongest Fighter), that had plenty of martial arts as well.

Bringing it back to the OP and my example, look at Vegeta's Final Flash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUy8GBNd46k

This is very 70s martial arts-esque music. But that's not a martial arts scene. Not even remotely. It's an action packed scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugdge3Cn9L0 - Faulconer's score brings this great scene to another level

Faulconer with one piano note shows more intensity, epicness, and greatness than the entire Japanese orchestra. BTW any think it's cool Vegeta says his blasts in English? Awesome! Vegeta's Japanese voice is easily the best. I never cared for Sabat. Cell's Japanese voice is also incredible, but that's for another discussion lol.

[ABED]

They do use a system, even if only their own. You have drawn this ridiculous arbitrary line about schools as if that's the criterion for whether something is martial arts. Martial arts are systems of combat. Something being a brawl doesn't make it not martial arts, and even then I think you're being utterly reductive, since Cell and Goku are most definitely martial artists. The Kamehameha is a martial arts technique developed by a martial artist who has a school and Cell is a monster made from the DNA of the greatest martial artists and employs their techniques.

What don't you get about KI BLASTS ARE MARTIAL ARTS!?

Karate is a school of martial arts, but do you know what makes it a school of martial arts? It's techniques. I'm not the best at explaining it, but what distinguishes Karate from Jiu Jitsu to the best of my understanding and experience is the later is built around strikes whereas Jiu Jitsu is built around grappling and ground based attacks.

[MasenkoHA]

The fact that the very first character to use ki was a martial arts master should be the big hint here.


And there are people who honestly think Funimation skipping to Dragon Ball Z and using replacement music wasn’t a colossal fuck up of a mistake

[ABED]

Truth be told, Muten Roshi's school was barely a school. He makes a very explicit point about not teaching his students techniques. He toughens them up and improves their speed. It really was more about the mentality of a martial artist striving to become better for its own sake that he instills in his students.

[McDonaldsGuy]

They do use a system, even if only their own. You have drawn this ridiculous arbitrary line about schools as if that's the criterion for whether something is martial arts. Martial arts are systems of combat. Something being a brawl doesn't make it not martial arts, and even then I think you're being utterly reductive, since Cell and Goku are most definitely martial artists. The Kamehameha is a martial arts technique developed by a martial artist who has a school and Cell is a monster made from the DNA of the greatest martial artists and employs their techniques.

What don't you get about KI BLASTS ARE MARTIAL ARTS!?

Think of it like The Matrix. The Matrix is primarily an action science fiction movie with martial arts elements. Actually, The Matrix had more martial arts than DBZ, but I digress. DBZ is very similar in that it's primarily action science fiction. And funny enough, The Matrix has a similar "synth" OST like Faulconer's DBZ. But when Morpheus and Neo first train, you can hear some Asian motifs in the music.

In Dragon Ball, mastering martial arts is pretty much the main story along with adventure for the Dragon Balls. DBZ, it's totally different. Mastering martial arts takes a back seat and outside the journey to Namek, there is very little adventuring.

Thus, the music should have changed to reflect that.To see what I think the soundtrack should have been like, listen to the soundtrack of Ultimate Battle 22. That's more action packed.

[McDonaldsGuy]

The fact that the very first character to use ki was a martial arts master should be the big hint here.

And?

[ABED]

Except the Matrix wasn't just an action film, it was in fact focused on the speculative and philosophical aspects of its premise. The science fiction WAS the point.

In Dragon Ball, mastering martial arts is pretty much the main story along with adventure for the Dragon Balls. DBZ, it's totally different. Mastering martial arts takes a back seat and outside the journey to Namek, there is very little adventuring.

It doesn't. Goku lets Vegeta go because he had never seen someone as powerful and resilient as him. He wants to fight him. DB falls in the category of wuxia or mystical/superhuman martial arts. Everything else, be it adventure, sci-fi, etc. are simply seasoning. Ki blasts are martial arts.

[MasenkoHA]

The fact that the very first character to use ki was a martial arts master should be the big hint here.

And?

And you keep using the emphasis on ki blast as evidence as Z not being a martial arts series when that’s clearly not the case here?

[McDonaldsGuy]

Except the Matrix wasn't just an action film, it was in fact focused on the speculative and philosophical aspects of its premise. The science fiction WAS the point.

Just as DBZ isn't focused on martial arts. In DBZ, the fights are more ki-centered than martial arts centered. I am not saying there was no martial arts, but to say the fights in DBZ are as martial arts focused as DB is so hilarious that you tried to use Tao Pai Pai as an example when he was literally a martial arts master.

[ABED]

Except the Matrix wasn't just an action film, it was in fact focused on the speculative and philosophical aspects of its premise. The science fiction WAS the point.

Just as DBZ isn't focused on martial arts. In DBZ, the fights are more ki-centered than martial arts centered. I am not saying there was no martial arts, but to say the fights in DBZ are as martial arts focused as DB is so hilarious that you tried to use Tao Pai Pai as an example when he was literally a martial arts master.

It's in one ear and out the other with you. Ki IS martial arts!

Tao Pai Pai is a martial arts master not because he went to a school, that fact wasn't established. He's a martial arts master because he employs martial arts. He's an assassin.

[McDonaldsGuy]

The fact that the very first character to use ki was a martial arts master should be the big hint here.

And?

And you keep using the emphasis on ki blast as evidence as Z not being a martial arts series when that’s clearly not the case here?

Furiza uses ki blasts and he's not a martial artist.

[McDonaldsGuy]

Except the Matrix wasn't just an action film, it was in fact focused on the speculative and philosophical aspects of its premise. The science fiction WAS the point.

Just as DBZ isn't focused on martial arts. In DBZ, the fights are more ki-centered than martial arts centered. I am not saying there was no martial arts, but to say the fights in DBZ are as martial arts focused as DB is so hilarious that you tried to use Tao Pai Pai as an example when he was literally a martial arts master.

It's in one ear and out the other with you. Ki IS martial arts!

No, it's fighting. Martial arts is very specific. Just because Indiana Jones throws a punch doesn't mean he's a martial artist lmao.

An example of a martial artist is Tao Pai Pai. He trained under martial arts.

Also, the fact DBZ video games and Super has a more "action packed" orchestra compared to the original Z OST is more evidence the martial arts themes don't fit in DBZ.