Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

[ABED]

And?

And you keep using the emphasis on ki blast as evidence as Z not being a martial arts series when that’s clearly not the case here?

Furiza uses ki blasts and he's not a martial artist.

Fill in the blanks: Ki blasts are _______ ____.

He trained under martial arts.

We know very little of his background, and is it the training or his techniques that make him a martial artist?

You say martial arts are very specific, but specific what?

Indiana Jones isn't using martial arts, he's throwing wild haymakers and shooting pistols. Goku and Freeza are throwing punches, kicks, and shooting ki blasts which are energy from their body they can draw out and turn solid. Goku's using martial arts, just more sophisticated martial arts than striking or grappling. In Goku's case, he can even draw in energy from everything in his surroundings.

[McDonaldsGuy]

And you keep using the emphasis on ki blast as evidence as Z not being a martial arts series when that’s clearly not the case here?

Furiza uses ki blasts and he's not a martial artist.

Fill in the blanks: Ki blasts are _______ ____.

He trained under martial arts.

We know very little of his background, and is it the training or his techniques that make him a martial artist?

You say martial arts are very specific, but specific what?

Ki blasts are energy attacks.

Martial arts examples include karate, judo, jiu jitsu. You learn from a martial arts master, who specifically trained for that. And no, training to fight doesn't make one a martial artist.

There aren't many Dragon Ball games, but the ones that exist the OST is very similar to the show (which is martial arts based). On the other hand, in almost all DBZ games, those soundtracks sound NOTHING like the original DBZ OST.

Funny enough, when you look at older threads, the general consensus is that DBZ is not martial arts focused. Only when I use that fact to criticize the OST did DBZ all of a sudden become as martial arts focused as DB.

[ABED]

Your conception of martial arts and even fictional mystical martial arts are COMPLETELY mistaken.

Why does being an energy attack preclude something from being martial arts? If martial arts are about techniques one employs in combat, would it not stand to reason that if you had the ability to take your energy and turn it into a projectile, it's just as much martial arts as grappling, or a strike, or a block?

[VegettoEX]

Stubbornness is not a virtue, and you are not obligated to respond within moments to other users. Consider your words, consider your viewpoint, consider someone else's viewpoint, and consider the bounty of resources provided to you.

[McDonaldsGuy]

Your conception of martial arts and even fictional mystical martial arts are COMPLETELY mistaken.

Why does being an energy attack preclude something from being martial arts?

In Dragon Ball, martial arts is no different than in real life.

Fighting doesn't = martial arts. That's not martial arts. Martial arts is specific. Notice ARTS in the name. Look at the Matrix example again. Is Neo a martial artist because he fights? No, it's because he specifically learned and trained in martial arts ("I know Kung Fu"). It's DBZ, the goal isn't to get more skilled at martial arts but to get stronger and surpass your limits. There is SOME martial arts in DBZ, but it's not even close to what it was in DB.

Tao Pai Pai is a martial artist BECAUSE he trained in martial arts. Furiza is not a martial artist because AFAIK he never trained in the martial arts (in Z at least). The fights in Z are more brawler/energy based than pure martial arts like in DB. Some of the fights in Z have martial art ELEMENTS, yes. Just like it has elements from other combat sports such as wrestling.

Dragon Ball's OST is very "adventure" "martial arts" like. DBZ is more action based and sci-fi based. So while martial arts music works during martial arts fights like with Tao Pai Pai

[ABED]

Your conception of martial arts and even fictional mystical martial arts are COMPLETELY mistaken.

Why does being an energy attack preclude something from being martial arts?

In Dragon Ball, martial arts is no different than in real life.

Fighting doesn't = martial arts. That's not martial arts. Martial arts is specific. Notice ARTS in the name. Look at the Matrix example again. Is Neo a martial artist because he fights? No, it's because he specifically learned and trained in martial arts ("I know Kung Fu"). It's DBZ, the goal isn't to get more skilled at martial arts but to get stronger and surpass your limits. There is SOME martial arts in DBZ, but it's not even close to what it was in DB.

Tao Pai Pai is a martial artist BECAUSE he trained in martial arts. Furiza is not a martial artist because AFAIK he never trained in the martial arts (in Z at least). The fights in Z are more brawler/energy based than pure martial arts like in DB. Some of the fights in Z have martial art ELEMENTS, yes. Just like it has elements from other combat sports such as wrestling.

Dragon Ball's OST is very "adventure" "martial arts" like. DBZ is more action based and sci-fi based. So while martial arts music works during martial arts fights like with Tao Pai Pai

Specifically what!? Yes, Neo becomes a martial artist because he does martial arts. It doesn't matter how he learned it. If you paint, you're a painter, if you're sing, you're a singer, if you write, you're a writer. It's not about whether you've gone to school to learn. And "arts" in this context simply means skill derived from learning OR practice.

In DBZ, getting stronger and more skilled. Surpassing limits and strength is part of martial arts.

Training isn't what makes you a martial artist. And as far as you know, who did Tao Pai Pai train under?

In DB, the martial arts were absolutely different than in real life. They used ki blasts all the time. What you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge for some unfathomable reason is the whole point is Goku starts off as a knowledgeable but still green martial artist and as he goes along, he learns more, and becomes more sophisticated. That includes using ki blasts which are martial arts!

DBZ isn't sci-fi based. Freeza and Vegeta employ techniques that aren't fundamentally different than Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Tao Pai Pai.

[Zestanor]

Martial arts just means fighting techniques. Mars was the god of war, etc. “Martial” does not imply anything more than this.

[ABED]

Martial arts just means fighting techniques. Mars was the god of war, etc. “Martial” does not imply anything more than this.

Facepalm. How did I not realize the Mars connection?

Bottom line, the music from DB through DBZ should change to reflect the changing genres, tropes, scope, passage of time, etc. but it shouldn't be so radically different that we don't see clearly that it's all the same story - the story of Son Goku, a martial artist who desires to become as good of a martial artist as he can be.

[McDonaldsGuy]

Your conception of martial arts and even fictional mystical martial arts are COMPLETELY mistaken.

Why does being an energy attack preclude something from being martial arts?

In Dragon Ball, martial arts is no different than in real life.

Fighting doesn't = martial arts. That's not martial arts. Martial arts is specific. Notice ARTS in the name. Look at the Matrix example again. Is Neo a martial artist because he fights? No, it's because he specifically learned and trained in martial arts ("I know Kung Fu"). It's DBZ, the goal isn't to get more skilled at martial arts but to get stronger and surpass your limits. There is SOME martial arts in DBZ, but it's not even close to what it was in DB.

Tao Pai Pai is a martial artist BECAUSE he trained in martial arts. Furiza is not a martial artist because AFAIK he never trained in the martial arts (in Z at least). The fights in Z are more brawler/energy based than pure martial arts like in DB. Some of the fights in Z have martial art ELEMENTS, yes. Just like it has elements from other combat sports such as wrestling.

Dragon Ball's OST is very "adventure" "martial arts" like. DBZ is more action based and sci-fi based. So while martial arts music works during martial arts fights like with Tao Pai Pai

Specifically what!? Yes, Neo becomes a martial artist because he does martial arts. It doesn't matter how he learned it.

In DBZ, getting stronger and more skilled. Surpassing limits and strength is part of martial arts.

Training isn't what makes you a martial artist. And as far as you know, who did Tao Pai Pai train under?

In DB, the martial arts were absolutely different than in real life. They used ki blasts all the time. What you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge for some unfathomable reason is the whole point is Goku starts off as a knowledgeable but still green martial artist and as he goes along, he learns more, and becomes more sophisticated. That includes using ki blasts which are martial arts!

DBZ isn't sci-fi based. Freeza and Vegeta employ techniques that aren't fundamentally different than Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Tao Pai Pai.

Martial arts is a very specific genre. Rocky isn't a martial arts film, but Ip Man, Way of the Dragon, and Bloodsport are. Watch classic Hong Kong martial arts movies (I have seen many). You can see how they influenced Dragon Ball. Another example is a Jet Li movie Fearless, which has the same martial arts genre motifs: training under a teacher, learning specific martial arts, and a tournament.

All the movies have different plots, but the motifs are generally the same. Dragon Ball is an almost remake of classic Hong Kong action movies. DBZ is not even remotely similar to those action movies. DBZ is closer to Star Wars than it is Enter the Dragon.

For example, you say "training isn't what makes you a martial artist." That's not true. in fact, training under a Sensei (teacher) is a huge part of martial arts. Tao Pai Pai is a martial artist specifically because he trained to be one and we know that because he trained under his brother's school and trained Tenshinhan specifically in martial arts.

DBZ is more akin to Rush Hour or The Matrix. Martial arts is used a bit, but it's not the main genre. When you say martial artists used Ki blasts, all you are saying is that martial artists use ki blasts. Not that all people who use ki blasts are martial artists.

[ABED]

Martial arts is a very specific genre. Rocky isn't a martial arts film, but Ip Man, Way of the Dragon, and Bloodsport are. Watch classic Hong Kong martial arts movies (I have seen many). You can see how they influenced Dragon Ball. Another example is a Jet Li movie Fearless, which has the same martial arts genre motifs: training under a teacher, learning specific martial arts, and a tournament.

All the movies have different plots, but the motifs are generally the same. Dragon Ball is an almost remake of classic Hong Kong action movies. DBZ is not even remotely similar to those action movies. DBZ is closer to Star Wars than it is Enter the Dragon.

For example, you say "training isn't what makes you a martial artist." That's not true. in fact, training under a Sensei (teacher) is a huge part of martial arts. Tao Pai Pai is a martial artist specifically because he trained to be one and we know that because he trained under his brother's school and trained Tenshinhan specifically in martial arts.

DBZ is more akin to Rush Hour or The Matrix. Martial arts is used a bit, but it's not the main genre. When you say martial artists used Ki blasts, all you are saying is that martial artists use ki blasts. Not that all people who use ki blasts are martial artists.

yes about The Matrix, but because Matrix is closer to the kinds of films you claim DBZ isn't. Wuxia - look it up. Just use the search function on this forum "wuxia" should bring up plenty of images to show you just how wrong you are.

Training isn't what makes someone a martial artist. It helps to learn from someone better than you, but it's not a criteria of what makes someone a martial artist.

And do we know for a fact that Tao Pai Pai trained under Tsurusennin?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44571&p=1635222&hil ... a#p1635222

[jjgp1112]

Chis is one of the basic foundations of martial arts fiction. There's an entire subgenre of martial arts/kung-fu fiction that's all about strange chi attacks, fighting space aliens, and obsessive warriors.

You're applying arbitrary, and extremely myopic definitions of martial arts to try to differentiate the Z portion of the series. While yes, DB had a far greater emphasis on the hand-to-hand combat, the very source of energy attacks that are ubiquitous in the Saiyan arc and beyond is about as distinctly Asian martial arts as you can get. Funimation simplifying and bastardizing it to generic "energy" doesn't change that.

[MasenkoHA]

Funny enough, when you look at older threads, the general consensus is that DBZ is not martial arts focused. Only when I use that fact to criticize the OST did DBZ all of a sudden become as martial arts focused as DB.

There had never been a consensus that DBZ isn’t martial arts based except Faulconer fans who want to pretend the company that couldn’t remember who killed Grandpa Gohan had any clue what they were doing.


Anyways it really doesn’t matter if Freeza and what not aren’t martial artist. The Pilaf Gang aren’t, Commander Red isn’t, Baba isn’t. The villains not being martial artist doesn’t change that the central character is a martial artist who trains to get stronger.

By your logic Dragon Ball is only a martial arts series during the tournament arcs

[McDonaldsGuy]

Martial arts is a very specific genre. Rocky isn't a martial arts film, but Ip Man, Way of the Dragon, and Bloodsport are. Watch classic Hong Kong martial arts movies (I have seen many). You can see how they influenced Dragon Ball. Another example is a Jet Li movie Fearless, which has the same martial arts genre motifs: training under a teacher, learning specific martial arts, and a tournament.

All the movies have different plots, but the motifs are generally the same. Dragon Ball is an almost remake of classic Hong Kong action movies. DBZ is not even remotely similar to those action movies. DBZ is closer to Star Wars than it is Enter the Dragon.

For example, you say "training isn't what makes you a martial artist." That's not true. in fact, training under a Sensei (teacher) is a huge part of martial arts. Tao Pai Pai is a martial artist specifically because he trained to be one and we know that because he trained under his brother's school and trained Tenshinhan specifically in martial arts.

DBZ is more akin to Rush Hour or The Matrix. Martial arts is used a bit, but it's not the main genre. When you say martial artists used Ki blasts, all you are saying is that martial artists use ki blasts. Not that all people who use ki blasts are martial artists.

yes about The Matrix, but because Matrix is closer to the kinds of films you claim DBZ isn't. Wuxia - look it up. Just use the search function on this forum "wuxia" should bring up plenty of images to show you just how wrong you are.

Training isn't what makes someone a martial artist. It helps to learn from someone better than you, but it's not a criteria of what makes someone a martial artist.

And do we know for a fact that Tao Pai Pai trained under Tsurusennin?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44571&p=1635222&hil ... a#p1635222

I am sure DBZ takes some Wuxia elements (Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon) but it's not a Wuxia show. Dragon Ball, sure.

Dragon Ball was based off of old Hong Kong martial arts movies, and you can tell. Going to train at a school. Tournaments. etc. etc. DBZ it disregards this totally and focuses more on power ups and power levels than pure martial arts.

Because of this, the martial arts-type music doesn't work.

See the Gohan-Goku Kamehameha against Cell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-NQyC1vmcs

It's supposed to be an end of the world, super attack that can destroy planets. The music doesn't reflect that. The music doesn't reflect the danger Cell poses to the planet. In martial arts movies, the world isn't at risk if a blast hits the core of the planet. But in sci-fi movies, such as Star Wars (the Death Star), one blast can destroy a planet and the music should reflect that.

This is where Faulconer shines. His music is epic and reflects what is happening: a battle to save the world. Not a martial arts fight like in Ip Man or Bloodsport or Dragon Ball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0WaiRulyoY

Tell me you don't get chills when you hear the piano. Damn it's awesome. The way it goes from end of the world music to the piano is amazing. Now I am gonna go on a YouTube watching binge lol.

[ABED]

Toriyama didn't change the fundamental genre 1/3 of the way through. And DB isn't a superhero story. It's not about saving the world. Hell, in the Cell arc, the main characters allow the antagonist to create enemies who in a possible future kill them all because they want to fight them.

No, I don't get the chills when I hear that song.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I am throughly unchilled. I get that there isnt an objective "The Japanese Music is just better" but your "Faulconer is objectively better. LOOK AT HOW AWESOME it is" is not much better.

EDIT:Gotta admit the Vegeta theme is awesome and does go with the scene. If it had played the entire time it would have been terrific.

[McDonaldsGuy]

Chis is one of the basic foundations of martial arts fiction. There's an entire subgenre of martial arts/kung-fu fiction that's all about strange chi attacks, fighting space aliens, and obsessive warriors.

You're applying arbitrary, and extremely myopic definitions of martial arts to try to differentiate the Z portion of the series. While yes, DB had a far greater emphasis on the hand-to-hand combat, the very source of energy attacks that are ubiquitous in the Saiyan arc and beyond is about as distinctly Asian martial arts as you can get. Funimation simplifying and bastardizing it to generic "energy" doesn't change that.

I don't see your point in this. The Force is based off of Chinese mythology too, but Star Wars isn't a kung fu movie. Hell, Star Wars literally ripped off Asian ideas (Samurai helmet for Vader; Hidden Fortress; etc. etc.). I mean, the way the Jedi behave is pretty much a rip off of Asian culture.

The martial arts genre is very specific. Dragon Ball is based off of those 70s/80s Hong Kong movies (Enter the DRAGON). However, by the time Raditz invades Earth, the influences from those movies are zilch.

[McDonaldsGuy]

I am throughly unchilled. I get that there isnt an objective "The Japanese Music is just better" but your "Faulconer is objectively better. LOOK AT HOW AWESOME it is" is not much better.

EDIT:Gotta admit the Vegeta theme is awesome and does go with the scene. If it had played the entire time it would have been terrific.

I am not doing that. I explained why I thought Faulconer was better - because it fit what is happening, and that is a battle for the end of the world. On the other hand, I felt the Japanese music doesn't fit the scene.

I am saying that the adventure/martial arts music that dominated Dragon Ball doesn't fit in with the more sci-fi action based DBZ. Faulconer would make 0 sense in Dragon Ball.

[Cure Dragon 255]

It tries harder to fit but In my opinion it at least it doesnt fit. The Vegeta section is awesome but I still prefer the Japanese tracks this time. I am glad you arent a blind fanboy.

[jjgp1112]

Chis is one of the basic foundations of martial arts fiction. There's an entire subgenre of martial arts/kung-fu fiction that's all about strange chi attacks, fighting space aliens, and obsessive warriors.

You're applying arbitrary, and extremely myopic definitions of martial arts to try to differentiate the Z portion of the series. While yes, DB had a far greater emphasis on the hand-to-hand combat, the very source of energy attacks that are ubiquitous in the Saiyan arc and beyond is about as distinctly Asian martial arts as you can get. Funimation simplifying and bastardizing it to generic "energy" doesn't change that.

I don't see your point in this. The Force is based off of Chinese mythology too, but Star Wars isn't a kung fu movie. Hell, Star Wars literally ripped off Asian ideas (Samurai helmet for Vader; Hidden Fortress; etc. etc.). I mean, the way the Jedi behave is pretty much a rip off of Asian culture.

The martial arts genre is very specific. Dragon Ball is based off of those 70s/80s Hong Kong movies (Enter the DRAGON). However, by the time Raditz invades Earth, the influences from those movies are zilch.

Yes, the influences from one type of Kung-Fu movie are gone by Z, but the Wuxia movies are hella prevalent. Do yourself a favor and just google "Kunzait" and "wuxia" because you're making it painfully clear with every post that you're not qualified for this conversation right now.

[ABED]

You are blatantly ignoring the more fantastical martial arts stories.