How would you improve DB going forward?

[ABED]

I told myself I wouldn't add anything anymore, but regarding this idea of not switching MC - it seems to work splendidly for the Jojo franchise.

I've talked about this, that's baked into the DNA of that story since its inception. It's a story about generations. It's also not what I'm talking about. DB's a story about one man, and has been for several decades. I'm talking about stories where it follows a main character(s) for years and then changes the focus to another character. Often it happens in live action because the actor wants to leave and the writers create a new character to fill the spot. It happened on X-Files, That 70s Show, Suits, The Office, and the shows were never as good as they used to be. No matter how much I keep clarifying JoJo isn't an example of what I'm talking about, people keep bringing it up.

[Planetnamek]

I told myself I wouldn't add anything anymore, but regarding this idea of not switching MC - it seems to work splendidly for the Jojo franchise.

I've talked about this, that's baked into the DNA of that story since its inception. It's a story about generations. It's also not what I'm talking about. DB's a story about one man, and has been for several decades. I'm talking about stories where it follows a main character(s) for years and then changes the focus to another character. Often it happens in live action because the actor wants to leave and the writers create a new character to fill the spot. It happened on X-Files, That 70s Show, Suits, The Office, and the shows were never as good as they used to be. No matter how much I keep clarifying JoJo isn't an example of what I'm talking about, people keep bringing it up.

Two and a Half Men comes to mind, that show was never the same when Sheen was forced out and they replaced him with Kutcher(nothing against Kutcher but him and his character felt really out of place on the show). I'm still kind of bitter about how that all went down and the deeply unsatisfying series finale, that's kind of what led to me not watching live-action shows while they were ongoing anymore and instead waiting until they were finished before diving into them.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Anyway, long story short, Goku is the heart of the franchise, but anything can get old after a while, so switching up the formula could help spice things up again.

Even the best characters get trying after a while which is why if a series wants to span decades it really will inevitably need to reinvent itself.

Although, honestly, I think even if Dragon Ball decides to stay the Goku story it could still refresh itself if it were willing to scrap it's setting and throw Goku into a new environment. As much as I dislike them as a rule, the human-less fanfiction stories that focus on Saiyans do have the right idea. If the series is about Goku confronting ever greater challenges then the cast aside from Vegeta are a distraction. They are not credible threats to Goku and cannot realistically push him further so they have no business being in the story.

[ABED]

Anyway, long story short, Goku is the heart of the franchise, but anything can get old after a while, so switching up the formula could help spice things up again.

Even the best characters get trying after a while which is why if a series wants to span decades it really will inevitably need to reinvent itself.

Although, honestly, I think even if Dragon Ball decides to stay the Goku story it could still refresh itself if it were willing to scrap it's setting and throw Goku into a new environment. As much as I dislike them as a rule, the human-less fanfiction stories that focus on Saiyans do have the right idea. If the series is about Goku confronting ever greater challenges then the cast aside from Vegeta are a distraction. They are not credible threats to Goku and cannot realistically push him further so they have no business being in the story.

The end of the Tournament of Power makes the point that Goku's friends are a large source of Goku's strength.

What's your idea for Dragon Ball reinventing itself?

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

The end of the Tournament of Power makes the point that Goku's friends are a large source of Goku's strength.

What's your idea for Dragon Ball reinventing itself?

That's not what I took from the ToP. In fact it seemed pretty clear that Goku's "friends" were holding him back and it was enemies like Freeza that really got him anywhere.

I don't have an idea for Dragon Ball reinventing itself. I think a full reboot might do it, one where Goku is just another Saiyan fighter and the series skips to the things the fanbase (and the creators) spend the most time obsessing about. I also think nuking Earth and moving Goku somewhere else where he's back to beign the bottom of the totem pole might do it. But I don't have any fully thought out ideas. Dragon Ball seems to succeed no matter what so ultimately TOEI probably won't change anything.

[ABED]

The end of the Tournament of Power makes the point that Goku's friends are a large source of Goku's strength.

What's your idea for Dragon Ball reinventing itself?

That's not what I took from the ToP. In fact it seemed pretty clear that Goku's "friends" were holding him back and it was enemies like Freeza that really got him anywhere.

I don't have an idea for Dragon Ball reinventing itself. I think a full reboot might do it, one where Goku is just another Saiyan fighter and the series skips to the things the fanbase (and the creators) spend the most time obsessing about. I also think nuking Earth and moving Goku somewhere else where he's back to beign the bottom of the totem pole might do it. But I don't have any fully thought out ideas. Dragon Ball seems to succeed no matter what so ultimately TOEI probably won't change anything.

Did you miss the part where they talk explicilty about this very issue? Vegeta got him where he needed, and even if Freeza isn't a friend, there is a begrudging respect from him. Fighting Goku changed everyone, from Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Vegeta, and now apparently Freeza. Without all of them, Goku doesn't get where he is.

No reboots, and everything you bring up isn't new territory. It's like having a new lead. It's just a paint job, and doesn't address any big issue the series has.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Did you miss the part where they talk explicilty about this very issue? Vegeta got him where he needed, and even if Freeza isn't a friend, there is a begrudging respect from him. Fighting Goku changed everyone, from Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Vegeta, and now apparently Freeza. Without all of them, Goku doesn't get where he is.

Exactly. They were only valuable to Goku in as much as they were challenges for him to overcome. Now that they're not they're completely worthless. Both to the plot and to Goku's continued growth. They have no worthwhile advice to offer him in combat or elsewhere and they don't make good sparring partners. With the exception of Vegeta, none of Goku's "friends" have grown as fighters.

Goku could have broken off all contact with them the minute he bested them and still be exactly where he is now.

[ABED]

Did you miss the part where they talk explicilty about this very issue? Vegeta got him where he needed, and even if Freeza isn't a friend, there is a begrudging respect from him. Fighting Goku changed everyone, from Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Vegeta, and now apparently Freeza. Without all of them, Goku doesn't get where he is.

Exactly. They were only valuable to Goku in as much as they were challenges for him to overcome. Now that they're not they're completely worthless. Both to the plot and to Goku's continued growth. They have no worthwhile advice to offer him in combat or elsewhere and they don't make good sparring partners. With the exception of Vegeta, none of Goku's "friends" have grown as fighters.

Goku could have broken off all contact with them the minute he bested them and still be exactly where he is now.

No "exactly." They aren't worthless. Their value to the story isn't merely about how value they are to whatever the plot is. Gohan did grow as a fighter. He employed strategies during the ToP and didn't rely on the power his emotions typically gave him.

Yeah, your last statement is so flat out and obviously false, I can't possibly believe you honestly believe that. Goku would've been killed by Vegeta, Freeza, Piccolo Daimao, and Buu had he broken off all contact the minute he bested them. This is so obvious that you have to be trolling me.

It was Kuririn and 18 that reminded Goku that he wasn't in a one on one tournament. His opponents won't necessarily fight him one on one fair fights.

[ronaldnorth_03]

I think the Super served as a great experiment for the franchise. They must analyze what worked and what didn't. What I hope for an eventual return of the series on TV:

1. Better production, at least six months of pre-production so that the series is well written and animated.

2. More villains. I don't particularly like tournaments because the script is limited to fights and expository dialogues.

3. A new character designer. I loved Shintani's style, but a part of me would like to see Takahashi bringing the old Dragon Ball.

4. Characters who don't run away from their personalities (Boo always bored, Goku acting like an imbecile).

5. Bring the Z warriors back (this time for real) and give them cool moments. It is frustrating to know that Krillin returned to active two times and still did not show anything (in the anime).

6. Really expand the franchise. We know almost nothing about universe 6 and 10 and absolutely nothing about the other universes. We need stories in these universes, otherwise the multiverse will become useless.

[JulieYBM]

Shintani and Takara would be nice for the next series but I also really want to see more kagenashi-style Dragon Ball. Tate Naoki definitely deserves a shot as being a character designer for the franchise. His Vegeta v. Hit is easily one of the best looks the franchise has had and I'd love to see that replicated in full episodes more often.

[ABED]

I think the Super served as a great experiment for the franchise. They must analyze what worked and what didn't. What I hope for an eventual return of the series on TV:

1. Better production, at least six months of pre-production so that the series is well written and animated.

2. More villains. I don't particularly like tournaments because the script is limited to fights and expository dialogues.

3. A new character designer. I loved Shintani's style, but a part of me would like to see Takahashi bringing the old Dragon Ball.

4. Characters who don't run away from their personalities (Boo always bored, Goku acting like an imbecile).

5. Bring the Z warriors back (this time for real) and give them cool moments. It is frustrating to know that Krillin returned to active two times and still did not show anything (in the anime).

6. Really expand the franchise. We know almost nothing about universe 6 and 10 and absolutely nothing about the other universes. We need stories in these universes, otherwise the multiverse will become useless.

The multiverse is useless. It's just another place that's no different from anywhere else in U7.
Kuririn did have cool moments. Dunno why you think otherwise, like when he sparred with Goku before the ToP or when he saved 18 from elimination or when he distracted that one fighter with his smelly shoe.
How does Goku act like more of an imbecile than he usually was?
The series is about the fights. More exhausting fights and clever moments in them, the better. The emphasis on the artwork is fine, but it's not where the energy needs to be.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

No "exactly." They aren't worthless. Their value to the story isn't merely about how value they are to whatever the plot is. Gohan did grow as a fighter. He employed strategies during the ToP and didn't rely on the power his emotions typically gave him.

Yeah, your last statement is so flat out and obviously false, I can't possibly believe you honestly believe that. Goku would've been killed by Vegeta, Freeza, Piccolo Daimao, and Buu had he broken off all contact the minute he bested them. This is so obvious that you have to be trolling me.

It was Kuririn and 18 that reminded Goku that he wasn't in a one on one tournament. His opponents won't necessarily fight him one on one fair fights.

Nobody, not the creator of the series, not the fanbase, and not the characters themselves, remember how the Vegeta vs Goku fight went down. As far as the story is concerned, Goku overcame Vegeta, humbling him. Krillin, Gohan, and Yajirobe outsmarting Oozaru Vegeta is the same as Yamcha overcoming Oozaru Goku; it goes against the way the characters are being presented and is being ignored by the story.

Gohan grew briefly up until the Cell Arc, regressed in Buu, got better half through, regressed again, and is now about where he had been in his late teens. Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Krillin haven't grown at all and would likely still struggle against a Ginyu level threat. Roshi is the only one that has risen above where we had seen him last. They're worthless. More so than they ever have been and these guys were pushing irrelevance all the way back in the Red Ribbon Arc.

[ronaldnorth_03]

I think the Super served as a great experiment for the franchise. They must analyze what worked and what didn't. What I hope for an eventual return of the series on TV:

1. Better production, at least six months of pre-production so that the series is well written and animated.

2. More villains. I don't particularly like tournaments because the script is limited to fights and expository dialogues.

3. A new character designer. I loved Shintani's style, but a part of me would like to see Takahashi bringing the old Dragon Ball.

4. Characters who don't run away from their personalities (Boo always bored, Goku acting like an imbecile).

5. Bring the Z warriors back (this time for real) and give them cool moments. It is frustrating to know that Krillin returned to active two times and still did not show anything (in the anime).

6. Really expand the franchise. We know almost nothing about universe 6 and 10 and absolutely nothing about the other universes. We need stories in these universes, otherwise the multiverse will become useless.

The multiverse is useless. It's just another place that's no different from anywhere else in U7.
Kuririn did have cool moments. Dunno why you think otherwise, like when he sparred with Goku before the ToP or when he saved 18 from elimination or when he distracted that one fighter with his smelly shoe.
How does Goku act like more of an imbecile than he usually was?
The series is about the fights. More exhausting fights and clever moments in them, the better. The emphasis on the artwork is fine, but it's not where the energy needs to be.

If it is to bring back Krillin to deceive someone with foot odor, it is better to leave him retired and be consistent with the ending of Z (he appears with hair for the third time )

Goku is silly. But in Z this is very balanced, in Saga Boo when he meets Shin he does not act like an imbecile compare the way he acts with Shin and Zamasu.

[ABED]

No "exactly." They aren't worthless. Their value to the story isn't merely about how value they are to whatever the plot is. Gohan did grow as a fighter. He employed strategies during the ToP and didn't rely on the power his emotions typically gave him.

Yeah, your last statement is so flat out and obviously false, I can't possibly believe you honestly believe that. Goku would've been killed by Vegeta, Freeza, Piccolo Daimao, and Buu had he broken off all contact the minute he bested them. This is so obvious that you have to be trolling me.

It was Kuririn and 18 that reminded Goku that he wasn't in a one on one tournament. His opponents won't necessarily fight him one on one fair fights.

Nobody, not the creator of the series, not the fanbase, and not the characters themselves, remember how the Vegeta vs Goku fight went down. As far as the story is concerned, Goku overcame Vegeta, humbling him. Krillin, Gohan, and Yajirobe outsmarting Oozaru Vegeta is the same as Yamcha overcoming Oozaru Goku; it goes against the way the characters are being presented and is being ignored by the story.

Gohan grew briefly up until the Cell Arc, regressed in Buu, got better half through, regressed again, and is now about where he had been in his late teens. Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Krillin haven't grown at all and would likely still struggle against a Ginyu level threat. Roshi is the only one that has risen above where we had seen him last. They're worthless. More so than they ever have been and these guys were pushing irrelevance all the way back in the Red Ribbon Arc.

Just that first statement alone is false. If you have to make stuff up, this isn't worth continuing.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Just that first statement alone is false. If you have to make stuff up, this isn't worth continuing.

If you say so. I've seen a lot of DB iconography, played most of the games, and talked with a lot of fans of the series. Except for Vegeta fangirls defending Vegeta's honor, nobody considers the humans and Gohan to have played a significant part in the battle. The iconic picture is Goku staring up defiantly at Vegeta, not Goku passing on the genki dama to Krillin.

[ABED]

I've been around the DB online fandom since pretty much its inception. People remember it was Goku, Gohan, and Kuririn. If anything people point to their combined efforts as a strength of that arc and specific fight.

[emperior]

Just that first statement alone is false. If you have to make stuff up, this isn't worth continuing.

If you say so. I've seen a lot of DB iconography, played most of the games, and talked with a lot of fans of the series. Except for Vegeta fangirls defending Vegeta's honor, nobody considers the humans and Gohan to have played a significant part in the battle. The iconic picture is Goku staring up defiantly at Vegeta, not Goku passing on the genki dama to Krillin.

What? Where does such an absurd and nonsensical claim come from?
The iconic picture of the fight being Goku vs Vegeta does not mean everyone is a braindead idiot who forgot how the second half of the battle unfolded.

Shintani and Takara would be nice for the next series but I also really want to see more kagenashi-style Dragon Ball. Tate Naoki definitely deserves a shot as being a character designer for the franchise. His Vegeta v. Hit is easily one of the best looks the franchise has had and I'd love to see that replicated in full episodes more often.

Tate was my favorite supervisor on Super and I love his style, but unfortunately he’s the least one “deserving” to be CD if we go by the general consensus of the fans, as he’s not only “ep. 5 guy” but also the “low budget guy who drew the Goku and Vegeta fusing part in Broly” and that part was, and still is, the most criticized bit from the movie.
There’s no way they would let him be the CD for a movie or TV show.

I wish they could let him, at least, handle designs on a TV special or on some short-episodes like the Twilight Wings Pokemon ones.

[JulieYBM]

Tate was my favorite supervisor on Super and I love his style, but unfortunately he’s the least one “deserving” to be CD if we go by the general consensus of the fans, as he’s not only “ep. 5 guy” but also the “low budget guy who drew the Goku and Vegeta fusing part in Broly” and that part was, and still is, the most criticized bit from the movie.
There’s no way they would let him be the CD for a movie or TV show.

I wish they could let him, at least, handle designs on a TV special or on some short-episodes like the Twilight Wings Pokemon ones.

Uh...I don't really care what stupid people think, though. If people don't like Tate Naoki--the animator to easily do the most amount of good work on the TV series--that is up to them. Their influence has no part on my fantasy scenario.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

What? Where does such an absurd and nonsensical claim come from?
The iconic picture of the fight being Goku vs Vegeta does not mean everyone is a braindead idiot who forgot how the second half of the battle unfolded.

It comes from interacting with parts of the fandom that aren't devoted to cataloguing the names of every animator and studio. Actually watching the series and reflecting on how it treats older plot points too. You should try it.

Uh...I don't really care what stupid people think, though. If people don't like Tate Naoki--the animator to easily do the most amount of good work on the TV series--that is up to them. Their influence has no part on my fantasy scenario.

The ideal solution to most things in life.

[emperior]

What? Where does such an absurd and nonsensical claim come from?
The iconic picture of the fight being Goku vs Vegeta does not mean everyone is a braindead idiot who forgot how the second half of the battle unfolded.

It comes from interacting with parts of the fandom that aren't devoted to cataloguing the names of every animator and studio. Actually watching the series and reflecting on how it treats older plot points too. You should try it.

You act as if I only interact with the super-informed-about-everything part of the fandom. Which is not the case. Never have I read, not even in YouTube comments, of fans not knowing Vegeta lost to a teamwork fight against Goku.
Sure, Goku did him the most damage not only physically but psychologically too as he was a low-class Saiyan who made him bleed and forced him to go Oozaru, and then begged Krillin not to kill him.

And sorry, but the “fans” you are talking about didn’t watch the series. So you should try interacting with people who actually either watched or read DB in its entirety, not to new fans who maybe only saw Z, and did so 10 or more years ago and saw it dubbed by Funimation. Or those who probably played some DBZ game where the fight with Vegeta ends with the Galick Gun vs Kamehameha clash, like Burst Limit - and never bothered watching the show in its entirety.

Even my super casual friends who didn’t watch DB and who last saw Z many years ago know that Vegeta wasn’t brought down by Goku alone in their first fight.

One thing I will admit is that, yes, all the flashbacks and references to that fight only show Goku vs Vegeta. But of course flashbacks of any kind rely on a few key moments, so unless you are a fan who only watched/read from Namek onwards then it’s impossible to forget how the fight with Vegeta went on.