Could a "Dragon Ball: Next Generation" show work?

[Zestanor]

Toriyama always adds some link between the arcs. Someone reading or watching the Saiyan arc will likely wonder where Vegeta (and Piccolo, since by the 23rd TB we know he’s an alien) came from, which leads us to Namek and Freeza.

But someone in the Freeza Arc is not going to wonder whether a mad scientist might create cyborgs and a monster based on the strongest people’s DNA which absorbs said cyborgs.

And someone in the Cell Arc wouldn’t begin to suspect whatever happened in the Buu Arc might happen.

It’s fine to surprise the viewer with a twist or new characters and villains, but there is a limit to how many times it’s believable that a totally unexpected threat shows up in an otherwise peaceful world. Eventually you have to appeal to fate and the Gods to justify this. Personally I think this is a very good trope, and I’m glad Toriyama went there, and GT with the evil dragons, but it signals the end of the story. If the story has been escalated to God level, you’ve reached the end.

[ABED]

Not always. There's no connection between the first two arcs and the Red Ribbon Army. The one connection is the RRA and Goku have the same goal - collect the DB's. That brings them into direct conflict. That's all that's needed.

If the audience is on board with monkey boys riding clouds, anthropomorphic animals, shooting blasts from ones hands, and the general weirdness of the world, I doubt the lack of connection from the previous arc(s) is a barrier. It's a fine structure, but the plots don't always have to connect from the previous ones.

World threatening evil is a story trope DB uses, but it's not what the story is about. It's about Goku seeking to overcome his limits, he's not a superhero protecting his world from oncoming threats. If they don't come to him, he'd seek them out. Given that it's fiction, these sort of "coincidences" for lack of a better word, are a convention I think most people are fine with.

Anyway, I think all that can be said, has been said about the world of DB. It's not a big universe that's in desperate need of exploration, certainly not with a next generation and the themes that would imply.

[Zestanor]

BTW the fate/destiny thing I’m talking about IS Goku. Not that he’s this prophesied hero or anything like that, but that he, and the Dragon Balls, are the reason and the glue that brings all the arcs together in the span of like 30 years.

I think we’re in agreement. My point is that whatever shenanigans they’d come up with to justify super Big Bads attacking the next generation would be beyond my limit for accepting it, breaking my immersion. It would cheapen the Buu arc, and GT, which imo together sucked dry what remained to be escalated for dramatic purpose in Dragon Ball.

[ABED]

I'm not sure we are, and that's fine. I have little issue with Buu's lack of connection to previous big bads. That's the least of that arc's issues. My problem is I generally don't find next gen stories that interesting unless of course, the original story is that. DB, especially early DB, in many ways was built around that theme.

I think DB has escalated to such a degree that the scale is so huge it's damn near impossible to dramatize.

The next generation is usually about improving upon the previous, but how does the next generation get bigger and better than Goku?

[Robo4900]

What themes and ideas are dying to be explored that can only happen with the next generation?

I think the big thing we'd get out of a next generation type idea would be that Dragon Ball could finally shed a lot of baggage that held the Boo arc, GT, and Super back, and sort of have a fresh start. A lot of the expectations of fans going into Dragon Ball could be ignored/subverted.

I imagine there's no shortage of people out there who have big ideas for what Dragon Ball could do if there wasn't a strict adherence to the status quo like there is in Super.

Then again, I guess a lot of these ideas could be done in a Super 2.0 that takes place after the end of the original manga... But at the same time, everyone's getting old, so if Dragon Ball is to continue past that, probably they should do some stuff with the younger cast. Otherwise we'll be watching The Grand Adventures Of Grand Dad Goku.

'Course another solution is for Toei to actually let this corpse of a franchise die, but with the amount of money Super's been making, I doubt we'll see that happen.

I think DB has escalated to such a degree that the scale is so huge it's damn near impossible to dramatize.

I think a move to a next generation might help alleviate this.
Take Goku and Vegeta off the board, de-emphasise the conections with the gods (maybe have Beerus go back to sleep, and Whis just pops in now and then to dine and chat with Bulma, but isn't really interested in being involved in actual storylines), and we can tell smaller stories.

The current manga storyline is exhaustingly over-powerscaled... We're working with a villain whose deal is "This guy can destroy an entire planet in seconds and Goku and Vegeta are powerless against him!! OOOHHHH!", and I just don't care. And I'm not alone in that. Partially, the plot is to blame (or perhaps, the lack of plot. And there's not much characterisation either), but also as you note, we've escalated to a point where it's just ridiculous. Very hard to tell a new Super storyline when things are so utterly stupid in scale.

A new cast who are just generally quite strong might set up for more interesting stories. Maybe do something like GT's concept of a "Grand Tour in space" but make it even smaller than that; for instance, Gohan and Piccolo decide to take the young'uns to Namek to meet Piccolo's people. But there's some kind of smalltime threat there (say, a sudden outbreak of Namekians who are similar to Piccolo Daimao and God, and they're trying to wipe out the rest of Namekian civilisation, and at the centre of it, maybe there's a cult who worship some kind of demon god), which the gang has to deal with. In Super, it'd be a 2-episode filler storyline we'd all forget about a week later. In a show with a lower-powered cast, it could be a longer storyline that takes its time to really zero in on the characters, and make you feel the stakes. End the story with some lasting consequences (perhaps the Namekian population has been significantly reduced, their planet laid waste to, and Gohan and Piccolo suggest they come to earth. Maybe add a young Namekian to the regular cast), and you're already doing a more daring show than Super.
Not exactly earth-shaking stuff, but if done right, stories like this could be fun.

[Peach]

Define "random" in this context.

Well, maybe a completely new character (similar to Korra) who encounters an elderly Master Krillin or Master Uub. Where Goku is a distant legend or something. And they have their own adventures maybe on earth, in the world tournament, in space, unambitious to make a wish, meet friends along the way.

[Zestanor]

A story set centuries or a thousand years later might work, using the events of DB as a distant legendary golden age. The heroes and villains could be weaker without sacrificing drama, like the way Lord of the Rings is more dramatic than the Silmarillion, where even though the temporally posterior story has a weaker evil and weaker heroes, and basically no divine intervention tropes, the stakes feel higher.

But then, why? Why make this new thing tied to Dragon Ball? Just to cash in?

[ABED]

Completely different types of stories. DB was all about reaching greater and greater heights. I've never read the Silmarilion, but I have read The Lord of the Rings and that was a straightforward good vs. evil tale. It didn't matter whether the evil was stronger or weaker than the previous generation, just that the stakes were high enough for the heroes.

I feel about next generation stories the same way I do about wrestling tag teams with New in front of their name - bored. The sole exception being The New Age Outlaws, but that's because they weren't using the name of an old tag team.

I think the big thing we'd get out of a next generation type idea would be that Dragon Ball could finally shed a lot of baggage that held the Boo arc, GT, and Super back, and sort of have a fresh start. A lot of the expectations of fans going into Dragon Ball could be ignored/subverted.

I don't think that's the case. As long as it's DB or not it will always have to overcome expectations of the previous series.

[Zestanor]

Completely different types of stories. DB was all about reaching greater and greater heights. I've never read the Silmarilion, but I have read The Lord of the Rings and that was a straightforward good vs. evil tale. It didn't matter whether the evil was stronger or weaker than the previous generation, just that the stakes were high enough for the heroes.

That post was a response to the other guy, but again I agree with you. The Silmarillion is the myth (though in-universe it’s more or less accurate history), and LoTR is a novel whose backstory is that myth. I brought this up as an example of a “next generation” story that worked very well without cheapening the older story. But since DB is such a different kind of story, I don’t think it’s capable of following this pattern believably. Just so it’s clear, I don’t think I’ve disagreed with anything you’ve said, ABED, besides not liking fate/destiny tropes, which is a matter of taste anyway.

[ABED]

I don't like fate/destiny tales because it's not a matter of choice. It's playing out a story layed out by something or someone else. Sometimes it's interesting if there's a twist like Harry Potter where there's a question of whether Voldemort would've gone after Harry had he not seen that prophecy to begin with. In effect, his choice to listen to it created a self fulfilling prophecy. The other is if the fate or destiny in question is not a good one. Instead of "you are special and will save everyone", it's "you're screwed", like with Bardock.

I don't think DB falls into that category. It's why I prefer the Bardock TV special to the backstory given in Broly. Goku's special because of his drive, not because he's some chosen one.

[Zestanor]

I don't like fate/destiny tales because it's not a matter of choice. It's playing out a story layed out by something or someone else. Sometimes it's interesting if there's a twist like Harry Potter where there's a question of whether Voldemort would've gone after Harry had he not seen that prophecy to begin with. In effect, his choice to listen to it created a self fulfilling prophecy. The other is if the fate or destiny in question is not a good one. Instead of "you are special and will save everyone", it's "you're screwed", like with Bardock.

I don't think DB falls into that category. It's why I prefer the Bardock TV special to the backstory given in Broly. Goku's special because of his drive, not because he's some chosen one.

You’re right; DB is not a fate/destiny story, and I probably should have called it something else.

I don’t think you’re being fair to the destiny trope though. It usually doesn’t preclude free will or the possibility of failing to fulfill the destiny. I suppose I’m partial to this trope though because I believe in a certain predestination (Thomistic basically) in real life, so fiction which draws and exaggerates on what I consider a real life trope appeals to me.

This is a different discussion, but everyone brings his or her own experiences to the table when absorbing works of fiction, and may arrive at wildly different interpretations of it than most others and even the author, and may enjoy a work for reasons totally unexpected reasons. I have a pet theory for why it is good and valuable for all people to enjoy fiction, including fantasy, as part of their leisure, but it’s not a very developed theory. Maybe some day.

[MasenkoHA]

Toriyama always adds some link between the arcs. Someone reading or watching the Saiyan arc will likely wonder where Vegeta (and Piccolo, since by the 23rd TB we know he’s an alien) came from, which leads us to Namek and Freeza.


But someone in the Freeza Arc is not going to wonder whether a mad scientist might create cyborgs and a monster based on the strongest people’s DNA which absorbs said cyborgs.

The Artificial Human arc is linked to the Red Ribbon army arc.

And someone in the Cell Arc wouldn’t begin to suspect whatever happened in the Buu Arc might happen.

Sure but someone in the 23rd Budokai arc wouldn’t expect the Saiyan arc. Someone in the 21st Budokai arc wouldn’t expect Red Ribbon. You’re reaching here.

It’s fine to surprise the viewer with a twist or new characters and villains, but there is a limit to how many times it’s believable that a totally unexpected threat shows up in an otherwise peaceful world.

The Red Ribbon Army was unexpected, Piccolo Daimao was unexpected, the Saiyans were unexpected. The only villain that had some sort of foreshadowing was Freeza and only because it was reasonable that the Saiyans were answering to someone since they wiped out life on planets and sold them for profit.

And Cell and the Cyborgs at least comes from the idea of “Goku didn’t kill every last member of the red ribbon army and a lot of them believed in Commander Red’s “new world order” he had fed to them. Someone could want revenge.

[s younger but it's a show with smiley faced poop.

The only issue I have with Buu in this context is it's awfully coincidental that he was buried on Earth, but again, ehhhh...

To be fair it’s also awfully coincidental that Goku would be sent to a planet and raised by a man who would nurture the same love of fighting that is encoded in his people’s dna and that his grandpa would have a dragon ball that would attract Bulma to him and they would meet his grandpa’s old sensei who had a history with the demon king who came from an alien that lived on a a planet that would be targeted by the same space warlord that wiped out Goku’s home planet.

[ABED]

LIfe has coincidences, but it's a huge stretch to go from "these coincidences that had to line up due to a backstory we created well after the fact are very convenient" to "this ultimate evil of universe threatening proportions just so happens to be buried on our planet even though it didn't really need to for the plot to function." I get your point, though.

[Zestanor]

Sure but someone in the 23rd Budokai arc wouldn’t expect the Saiyan arc.

If they knew the manga was not going to be cancelled, they would predict Piccolo would return, and the Piccolo connection goes straight to Planet Namek and Freeza. The readers would not be able to predict the details, but at least after the fact they would see the consistent movement in that direction. The Cell arc on the other hand is a “what-if” scenario. What if Freeza didn’t die, what if time travel were possible, what if Vegeta and Bulma had a kid, what if a mad scientist made cyborgs. No one could have predicted any of these things to come during the Freeza arc, hence Cell and the androids are villains independent of the Freeza arc villains.

[ABED]

Sure but someone in the 23rd Budokai arc wouldn’t expect the Saiyan arc.

If they knew the manga was not going to be cancelled, they would predict Piccolo would return, and the Piccolo connection goes straight to Planet Namek and Freeza. The readers would not be able to predict the details, but at least after the fact they would see the consistent movement in that direction. The Cell arc on the other hand is a “what-if” scenario. What if Freeza didn’t die, what if time travel were possible, what if Vegeta and Bulma had a kid, what if a mad scientist made cyborgs. No one could have predicted any of these things to come during the Freeza arc, hence Cell and the androids are villains independent of the Freeza arc villains.

I don't see your point. The Piccolo thing was a nice connection but that's not the same thing you were talking about with the link between the villains. I also still don't understand why each villain has to be connected to the previous one. It's not bad storytelling to start things anew and not have EVERYTHING connected. Not every case a detective works on in the mystery genre is connected. I don't see why the same thing shouldn't apply here.

The element that connects the villains is the hero, not the previous villains.

[Zestanor]

]I don't see your point. The Piccolo thing was a nice connection but that's not the same thing you were talking about with the link between the villains. I also still don't understand why each villain has to be connected to the previous one. It's not bad storytelling to start things anew and not have EVERYTHING connected. Not every case a detective works on in the mystery genre is connected. I don't see why the same thing shouldn't apply here.

The element that connects the villains is the hero, not the previous villains.

I wasn’t making a point. Not every villain needs to be connected for it to be good, and I never said that. But if they fast forward to a new generation, it would not make sense for a “new threat” comparable to Freeza/Cell/Buu to show up out of nowhere with no connection to them. If Goku and everyone are out of the picture, then it may as well not be Dragon Ball anyway.
I think you’re misunderstanding my reason for participating in this thread. I don’t have a wholly consistent case to make, besides being generally opposed to a NG story, and throwing some ideas out there. I may have contradicted myself at some point, but generally I haven’t disagreed with anything you said.

[ABED]

And fair enough; even if it doesn't make sense, whatever that means in this context, this is one of those issues viewers don't fret over.

[emperior]

Dragon Ball: Next Generation could work if written well. As everything can. The question is, would we want it? Would it still feel like Dragon Ball?

I am on the board of those who wouldn’t mind this kind of series at all. Especially if, as some user suggested, it followed Dragon Ball Online’s lore and story (but please, give me the Goku vs Vegeta fight as a movie and make many happy fanboys and much money).

But Dragon Ball is Goku’s story. It’s his quest to self improvement. Remove that out of the picture and it may not even feel like the same series anymore. But it could still be cool, I guess, due to the charm of the DB world.

And the main reason I wouldn’t mind this is because I wouldn’t want anyone else other than Toriyama to touch Goku’s story. Let him first finish whatever he wants to do with Super, and once that’s over and he doesn’t want to write anymore Dragon Ball then Toei/Toyotaro can jump on a next generation story still set in the DB world, but with Goku out of the picture.
Toriyama may even supervise it, and they may even market it as canonical and I wouldn’t care as long as they make it clear Goku’s story is over.

(An idea I have is that the protagonist could be a kid who loves martial arts and, during a journey to get stronger, ends up discovering a book where the legend of Goku is written. Believing everything to be true, the kid’s goal becomes that to meet and fight Goku and so a new quest to improvement begins. Dragon Balls would be involved, and so would other old characters and their descendants and many ideas would be borrowed by Dragon Ball Online but it would be more grounded so nothing of the stuff they wrote to fit in with it being an MMO RPG, so no public knowledge of Ki for example)

[WittyUsername]

On the subject of a next generation story in Dragon Ball, back in the day, I did used to wonder what a series about Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. from the end of GT would’ve been like.

Anyway, I think a next generation story about characters like Goten, Trunks, Pan, Oob, and Bra might have potential, but it would be difficult to pull off in a way that doesn’t get Goku and Vegeta involved in the plot.

[coola]

I'm all for it, i ve got burned out with Goku and Vegeta, especially with how Super/Toriyama portray them (mainly Goku)