Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

[ABED]

it shouldn't take away from the qualities in a show you already recognize are there.

But it does. If the music is at odds with the mood, it can ruin imersion in the story. For instance, I love the scene where Tao Pai Pai kills Bora, sending Goku into a rage. The music is great, but that damn BOING sound ruins a lot of that feeling. It's a goofy sound and has no place in the scene.

The first time I watched Dragon Ball Z in Japanese, it felt like I was watching it for the very first time again. That wouldn't have happened for me without the Faulconer track existing.

Which feels more akin to appreciating health after you've been ill, e.g. the phoenix effect.

[Melee_Sovereign]

But it does. If the music is at odds with the mood, it can ruin imersion in the story.

Right. I'm saying according to his line of reasoning, thats is not the case. i.e. "Faulconer music (and by extension, any music) isn't needed to enhance the cool factor, because the show is already cool" which is a line of reasoning that I disagree with. But if I were to entertain that line of reasoning, then I submit to him that background music that you don't like, shouldn't take away from any good qualities you already recognize in the show.

Basically, the line of reasoning states that music is a non-factor, both in not being needed to accentuate any qualities, and also not having any positive or negative effect.

It's wrong. I agree.

Which feels more akin to appreciating health after you've been ill, e.g. the phoenix effect.

That analogy probably only works for people who straight up didn't like the Faulconer track, but was initially the only version of the show they were familiar with. Or for people who liked it, but don't like it retrospectively after experiencing other versions of the show.

Me, I still like it retrospectively, even after viewing other versions of the show. Don't try to convince me that I enjoy being sick though.

[ABED]

I don't think it has anything to do with whether you like dub/dub music. It's not seeing it again for the first time. At best, you were chasing a high and you saw a much better version. I don't think you would've gotten that rush had the experience been in reverse - you saw the original first and then the adaptation with its cheap inferior ill-fitting music second.

[Melee_Sovereign]

It's not seeing it again for the first time.

Not literally, no. But it can elicit that feeling of seeing it for the first time.

I don't think you would've gotten that rush had the experience been in reverse - you saw the original first and then the adaptation with its cheap inferior ill-fitting music second.

It has nothing to do with what version is superior or not. It has to do with how fresh it feels. I got the same "first time" feeling from watching Kai, which I watched after seeing the Japanese version, despite the Japanese version being my favorite way to experience the show.

I got the "first time" feeling because I had never seen Kai before at that point, and therefore it felt "fresh".

[ABED]

It's not seeing it again for the first time.

Not literally, no. But it can elicit that feeling of seeing it for the first time.

I don't think you would've gotten that rush had the experience been in reverse - you saw the original first and then the adaptation with its cheap inferior ill-fitting music second.

It has nothing to do with what version is superior or not. It has to do with how fresh it feels. I got the same "first time" feeling from watching Kai, which I watched after seeing the Japanese version, despite the Japanese version being my favorite way to experience the show.

I got the "first time" feeling because I had never seen Kai before at that point, and therefore it felt "fresh".

I do think the clear superiority of one over the other plays directly into how it feels. A step up feels better than a step down.

It can't either literally or figuratively. It can approximate it, but it can only ever come somewhere close to giving that feeling of a first time.

Regardless, the bastardization of the show isn't worth someone chasing a nostalgia high.

[Melee_Sovereign]

I do think the clear superiority of one over the other plays directly into how it feels.

Sure. If something is superior, the feeling that it will elicit is "this thing is more joyful than that other thing." And it did elicit that feeling for me too, but that's still a distinct feeling from "it felt like I was watching it for the first time". The latter feeling was elicited by the fact that both the music, and dialogue was different than what I was familiar with. A feeling of freshness is merely elicited by something being unfamiliar to one's experience.

If I watch the Japanese version 20 times in a row, that fresh feeling will invariably go down. I can still conclude with myself that it's my favorite, but it will no longer feel fresh at all.

It can't either literally or figuratively. but it can only ever come somewhere close to giving that feeling of a first time.

I've been calling it a feeling this whole time and nothing more.

[ABED]

But you were familiar with it and you getting a nostalgic high in no way justifies changing the music. Those fans who do in fact like the music, sorry, that feeling you got from it is meaningless to me. Changing the show isn't worth it even if a bunch of kids got a rush from it after school.

One thing I don't like about it now is the dumb justification that it accentuated how cool that action is. Cool is such a vague term. Actual emotions are far more concrete and sticks with people more than just cool shit.

[Melee_Sovereign]

But you were familiar with it and you getting a nostalgic high in no way justifies changing the music. Those fans who do in fact like the music, sorry, that feeling you got from it is meaningless to me. Changing the show isn't worth it even if a bunch of kids got a rush from it after school.

But I wasn't familiar with it (the Japanese music and dialogue). And it wasn't a nostalgic high. It was a "this is a new experience" high. Rather the opposite of nostalgia.

Those fans who do in fact like the music, sorry, that feeling you got from it is meaningless to me

No one needs their feelings to be meaningful to you. They only need to be meaningful to themselves. And you don't need to apologize for it.

One thing I don't like about it now is the dumb justification that it accentuated how cool that action is. Cool is such a vague term. Actual emotions are far more concrete and sticks with people more than just cool shit.

I don't think anyone is really trying to justify it. Just, some people like it, and some people don't.

[ABED]

I don't think anyone is really trying to justify it. Just, some people like it, and some people don't.

Um, that's exactly what people are trying to do, especially when they bring up how the dub music made those cool moments EPIC for them. I've seen too many of these sorts of threads and comments to think you're correct on this issue. You're verifiable mistaken.

But I wasn't familiar with it (the Japanese music and dialogue). And it wasn't a nostalgic high. It was a "this is a new experience" high. Rather the opposite of nostalgia.

But it wasn't new. You had experienced the series, albeit in a bastardized form. By your own admission it was like watching it again for the first time. And I get it, that feeling of wanting to experience something you like or even love like you did the first time. Being drawn into a story and surprised by it is such a emotionally powerful thing. Nostalgia is probably not the right word. It implies a passage of at least a few years.

[Melee_Sovereign]

Um, that's exactly what people are trying to do, especially when they bring up how the dub music made those cool moments EPIC for them. I've seen too many of these sorts of threads and comments to think you're correct on this issue. You're verifiable mistaken.

Fair enough I guess. That said, it doesn't need to be justified. It's just music on a cartoon.

I'm certainly not trying to justify it. I'm just acknowledging that it exists, and that I genuinely like it for what it is, and what it aims to do.

But it wasn't new. You had experienced the series, albeit in a bastardized form. By your own admission it was like watching it again for the first time. And I get it, that feeling of wanting to experience something you like or even love like you did the first time. Being drawn into a story and surprised by it is such a emotionally powerful thing.

Japanese music and dialogue I had not experienced. That part was new, and that part elicited a feeling of freshness, because it was new to me. That was not nostalgia.

Obviously the series it self wasn't new to me.

[ABED]

I would argue that even the score of a cartoon needs to feel justified. Either slapping on the score of a completely different series to save money or producing a score at odds with the story is disservice to the show.

[dougo13]

Apologies in advance for double posting.

They didn't. Japanese Dragon Ball now sounds the way it does because the audio masters were thrown out by Toei after each episode aired for the first time. The show's audio quality was much higher when it originally aired.

Shamelessly plugging myself to back you up.

I saw this video as well.
First, Toei throws out the audio masters, then Funimation spreads the wrong 16:9 version instead of 4:3. Why does this franchise have to suffer from so much mishandling?

It wasn't just Toei though. Many studios and channels in Japan and outside japan have tossed or locked away stuff so no one can get at it. As such, we have no idea what exists or doesn't anymore. NHK I assume did not keep a lot of productions from the 1960s through the 1980s. I'm trying to preserve as much as I can, especially interview shows as many of the creators, voice actors, etc. have since passed on. TVOntario in Canada destroyed most of their back library in a cost cutting move in the 1980s. Sad to think that I and a handful of others in the province have more old material than that station currently has. Then there were all the old pilot episodes of shows that never made it. They used to air them in summer months for a number of years but there is no video release that I know of. I have a lot of them as a friend recorded many of those shows and gave me his discs when he got out of DVD recording. But I guess something will always be missing. ..

[GhostEmperorX]

It wasn't just Toei though. Many studios and channels in Japan and outside japan have tossed or locked away stuff so no one can get at it. As such, we have no idea what exists or doesn't anymore. NHK I assume did not keep a lot of productions from the 1960s through the 1980s. I'm trying to preserve as much as I can, especially interview shows as many of the creators, voice actors, etc. have since passed on. TVOntario in Canada destroyed most of their back library in a cost cutting move in the 1980s. Sad to think that I and a handful of others in the province have more old material than that station currently has. Then there were all the old pilot episodes of shows that never made it. They used to air them in summer months for a number of years but there is no video release that I know of. I have a lot of them as a friend recorded many of those shows and gave me his discs when he got out of DVD recording. But I guess something will always be missing. ..

That may be so but when a studio is as big as Toei with many successful properties this stuff shouldn’t be happening. Look at Sunrise and all that they’ve preserved over the years even though they just became their own company in 1977, very few of their big TV shows (like the Gundam series) are languishing in lack of proper material. Same is true of Gainax and even Pierrot. Toei still discarding proper audio even into the 90’s is just inexcusable. Not to mention the fact that they won’t even accept the proper broadcast audio from those of you who have the recordings, even now so it shows that it was never a priority for them.

[Majin Buu]

You can say that for any background music. By that same token, the Japanese soundtrack isn't going to convince anyone that it enhances the drama or emotion of the show. You don't need it either. The show already has it.

Yes, the story does already have drama and emotion in it, but we're not talking about a medium where music is a non-existent element like the manga. A television show with no music period would be an extremely difficult thing to pull off. If you're adapting this story into a medium that typically uses music (and you're not aiming for some high concept execution that uses no music), then you have to figure how to most effectively use that additional element.

What do you think the entire point of background music is? It's to accentuate the qualities a show already has (as well as help set a certain tone).

Of course. I never said otherwise.

Different types of background music has different purposes. Faulconer's music aims to accentuate the "cool" factor, but it doesn't intend to do much more than that (and fair enough if you think it does a bad job at this one thing).

I do think it does a bad job at conveying "coolness" too. Again, it feels more like it's trying and failing to convey "coolness" more than anything else.

My point here is that the Falconer score performs a function that is redundant due to the visuals being more than adequate, while other areas that need that kind of emphasis more are under-served. I simply don't think it's necessary for the score to accentuate "coolness" when the visuals do a good job at that already and because the elements that I think need it most are....

The Japanese tracks aims to accentuate the mood, drama, and emotional weight of the show.

This. I believe these are the more important elements the score should be focusing on for this story, rather than non-stop screaming at you that this stuff is cool like the Falconer score does.

[Melee_Sovereign]

Yes, the story does already have drama and emotion in it, but we're not talking about a medium where music is a non-existent element like the manga. A television show with no music period would be an extremely difficult thing to pull off. If you're adapting this story into a medium that typically uses music (and you're not aiming for some high concept execution that uses no music), then you have to figure how to most effectively use that additional element.

What do you think the entire point of background music is? It's to accentuate the qualities a show already has (as well as help set a certain tone).

Of course. I never said otherwise.

Alright, so we agree. Music is needed.

My point here is that the Falconer score performs a function that is redundant due to the visuals being more than adequate, while other areas that need that kind of emphasis more are under-served. I simply don't think it's necessary for the score to accentuate "coolness" when the visuals do a good job at that already and because the elements that I think need it most are....

This is where you lose me. Music is needed, but what the Faulconer score does is not needed? Because "the visuals exist"?

You're still saying "the show already conveys this through some non-musical way, therefore, x music isn't needed."

This. I believe these are the more important elements the score should be focusing on for this story, rather than non-stop screaming at you that this stuff is cool like the Falconer score does.

More important elements existing doesn't mean the less important elements don't need music.

[ABED]

I would say the score isn't needed to convey "cool" because cool isn't an emotion.

[Melee_Sovereign]

I would say the score isn't needed to convey "cool" because cool isn't an emotion.

Soundtracks aim to elicit emotions, not convey them (though they can convey them). Soundtracks often convey aesthetics, and aesthetics are intimately tied to emotions. And aesthetics also elicit emotions (which is why soundtracks convey them).

'Cool' is an aesthetic, just like 'sexy', 'scary(not fear)', 'dramatic', 'unsettling' are aesthetics. These all elicit emotional responses. A sexy scene comes up in a show, you can almost be certain there will be sexy music to convey general 'sexiness', which in-tern may elicit things like lust.

[ABED]

I know this is weird coming from me, but you're hung up on the words, not my meaning, which I'm sure you understood. Cool is vague and an ever moving target. What is cool in the 80s isn't cool in the 90s. Accentuating that through the music is next to meaningless. Thanks for the lesson, though. Cool is utterly meaningless here. It's not about character. How about music that conveys fear or elation or something more tangible than "cool", which tells us nothing about the characters and what they're going through.

[Melee_Sovereign]

I know this is weird coming from me, but you're hung up on the words, not my meaning, which I'm sure you understood. Cool is vague and an ever moving target. What is cool in the 80s isn't cool in the 90s. Accentuating that through the music is next to meaningless. Thanks for the lesson, though. Cool is utterly meaningless here. It's not about character.

Coolness is just an aesthetic. It has plenty of meaning in culture, even if it is loosely defined.

But okay, I'll try to read between the lines here. By meaningless, I think you mean shallow? I think what you're really trying to say here is, conveying coolness is a shallow thing to do. Often because many things that try to convey coolness overlook other things. That's indeed often the case, but I think it's important not to conflate the two. It's very much possible to convey coolness and also have it be meaningful.

The problem with the Faulconer track is simple. It's not that it conveys coolness. It's that it overlooks conveying other things. But again, it's important not to conflate the two. The way the Faulconer track conveys anything may be a bit shallow (including when it attempts to convey other things like sadness, or peacefulness). But it doesn't meany conveying coolness in a general sense, is shallow.

How about music that conveys fear or elation or something more tangible than "cool"

There's no reason why we can't have all of these things. Again, conflating the two, as if we can't have one if we have the other.

[ABED]

What's cool changes from person to person.

By meaningless, I think you mean shallow?

yes, and I very much mean that it's meaningless. Cool doesn't convey anything meaningful in a narrative.

It's very much possible to convey coolness and also have it be meaningful.

Care to give an example?