Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

[Majin Buu]

This is where you lose me. Music is needed, but what the Faulconer score does is not needed? Because "the visuals exist"?

Correct. What the Falconer score does as music is redundant in my opinion. Just because music is needed doesn't mean the music produced can't be inadequate, or redundant, or otherwise not work for what the show needs most. It all depends on the material. For me, in the context of Dragon Ball, what the Falconer score does is redundant and inadequate for the show.

You're still saying "the show already conveys this through some non-musical way, therefore, x music isn't needed."

What I've been saying is "the show already adequately conveys this through some non-musical way, therefore, it's unnecessary for x music to focus on this and instead should have focused on more important elements."

More important elements existing doesn't mean the less important elements don't need music.

Again, I never said otherwise; just that the Falconer score redundantly takes those less important elements and makes them the primary focus; again, to the detriment of those more important elements.

[Melee_Sovereign]

What's cool changes from person to person.

As does any aesthetic quality you may find in an artistic medium.

Care to give an example?

I think this song is meaningful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsTd10HaD5s

[Melee_Sovereign]

What the Falconer score does as music is redundant in my opinion. Just because music is needed doesn't mean the music produced can't be inadequate, or redundant, or otherwise not work for what the show needs most.

Saying it's inadequate is one thing. Saying it's redundant is another. But I guess they're both fair opinions either way.

What I've been saying is "the show already adequately conveys this through some non-musical way, therefore, it's unnecessary for x music to focus on this and instead should have focused on more important elements."

So theoretically, a given fiction can convey more meaningful qualities without the need for music? Just Dragon Ball isn't one of them and therefore needs the Japanese tracks?

Again, I never said otherwise; just that the Falconer score redundantly takes those less important elements and makes them the primary focus; again, to the detriment of those more important elements.

Okay. I guess what you're saying is the "coolness" of Dragon Ball is already obvious, where as other qualities are not and need the aid of music to convey them.

Fair enough if that's the case.

I don't think coolness is necessarily less important than other qualities though. I think the real problem is, the Faulconer soundtrack specifically is an overall more shallow soundtrack than the Japanese soundtrack. I think this holds true even with Faulconer tracks that attempt to convey things like sadness, drama, seriousness etc... which, it has plenty of those. The Japanese tracks just plainly do it better.

I don't think coolness in the most general sense, is inherently more shallow than these other qualities though. Especially for young kids watching. It can inspire confidence, self-esteem, and motivation in an impressionable youth, and it can do it for adults too.

[ABED]

I don't think coolness in the most general sense, is inherently more shallow than these other qualities though. Especially for young kids watching. It can inspire confidence, self-esteem, and motivation in an impressionable youth, and it can do it for adults too.

Sure, given how ill defined the term is, I guess it could, though I don't really see how, and I think you are reaching on that point.

As does any aesthetic quality you may find in an artistic medium.

But it's not clear unlike emotions an artist might try to convey like sadness or love or terror. They might not hit the mark, but at least they have the benefit of being clear and not dependent on trends.

I think this song is meaningful.

Not remotely helpful

[XanatosVanBadass]

The main issue beyond all the bullshit is simple. Funimation, an American company, dared to think they new better then the people who ACTUALLY made the anime. They even did this long after replacement scores were unpopular. I don’t get how anyone in this community can be for the blatant Americanism and how fucking problematic it is.

[Valerius Dover]

The main issue beyond all the bullshit is simple. Funimation, an American company, dared to think they new better then the people who ACTUALLY made the anime. They even did this long after replacement scores were unpopular. I don’t get how anyone in this community can be for the blatant Americanism and how fucking problematic it is.

Slight nitpick here. They stopped doing replacement scores in 2007, and I'd say it wasn't until a few years back that it became more common for kid's anime dubs to retain the original music.

[Melee_Sovereign]

I think you are reaching on that point.

Well, I'm not trying to reach.

'Coolness' is often intimately associated with qualities of confidence, composure, competence, capability and general things to admire. It's also a synonym of spectacular (as in, things that are a spectacle). Kids, especially young boys, tend to admire things they find cool. It's all over things like Hip-Hop culture (hence the song example).

Goku powers up to Super Saiyan. Que awesome sounding music. Kids go awe over the spectacle. They admire him, want to be like him, and are inspired by him.

But it's not clear unlike emotions an artist might try to convey like sadness or love or terror. They might not hit the mark, but at least they have the benefit of being clear and not dependent on trends.

Of course it's not clear. You listen to a classical orchestra with no lyrics, is it clear what it's trying to convey? Or are you gonna have a subjective and emotional interpretation of it?

There isn't always a mark to be hit.

Not remotely helpful

What kind of example are you looking for?

The song conveys 'coolness' (it's literally in the title). The lyrics, rather explicitly, associate it with the aforementioned qualities.

[Cure Dragon 255]

What if kids like Kikuchi? Literally outside the USA millions upon millions of chilren have loved the Kikuchi score?

[ClutchBangstrip]

I agree, I like Faulconer 's OST more, too. For mostly the same reasons. That said, the original score isn't bad at all. Both are good, IMO, one is just better.

[ABED]

There isn't always a mark to be hit.

In a film or TV score, you bet there is. Your classical music example isn't a good one because film and TV scores are by definition not ends in themselves. They are 1 part of a whole. They can be appreciated by themselves but they are made for the purpose of supporting something else.

Coolness' is often intimately associated with qualities of confidence, composure, competence, capability and general things to admire. It's also a synonym of spectacular (as in, things that are a spectacle). Kids, especially young boys, tend to admire things they find cool. It's all over things like Hip-Hop culture (hence the song example).

Then the score should convey those things because they are specific and apply to the story and characters.

What kind of example are you looking for?

The song conveys 'coolness' (it's literally in the title). The lyrics, rather explicitly, associate it with the aforementioned qualities.

Explain how it applies to your point. You just linked to it, as if it's self evident why that song is meaningful.

[simtek34]

What if kids like Kikuchi? Literally outside the USA millions upon millions of chilren have loved the Kikuchi score?

Hey,

I was 6 back in 2010 when Kai was on. I watched it every week on The CW 4Kids. The music was great in my opinion, Yamamoto, and later Kikuchi after the scandal happened in 2011. When NickToons started airing movies 4-13, the TV Specials, and GT when I was 7, besides wondering when the Boo arc of Kai would come, I didn't like the music at all. Faulconer, Menza, or the "real bands" that they had do the soundtracks. At this point, I had already finished all of Kai via the Japanese version. After the Yamamoto scandal, Kai went on a 2-month hiatus on NickToons from March-May of 2011, I had gone to the internet and continued watching fansubbed Kai on illegal streaming sites after Episode 63 up until 98. After that, I watched some of the Saiyan arc of Z Sub and Dub when FUNi had full episodes from Hulu for free on dragonballz.com, furthering my love for Kikuchi. The ratings were pretty good as well, for a Saturday Morning show at 11am CT, in the millions if I remember seeing from one of your posts a few years ago. I've even converted some friends of mine from Faulconer to Kikuchi to Kai as well. Still trying to work on getting them on the Original Japanese Version for about Two Years...

So in short, In my opinion, many people here in the USA would have had no problem if Kikuchi was used all the way from 1995-2003. It's not like people watched the show for the music and it would have failed miserably without it *coughthessultimategokucough*. Even for us Kai babies, who experienced Kikuchi first, we got to know what Dragon Ball was supposed to sound like.
Sorry for the whole life story, I just like to tell my unique experience compared to others on the forum.

[GhostEmperorX]

The main issue beyond all the bullshit is simple. Funimation, an American company, dared to think they new better then the people who ACTUALLY made the anime. They even did this long after replacement scores were unpopular. I don’t get how anyone in this community can be for the blatant Americanism and how fucking problematic it is.

You see what I mean by “exceptionalism” don’t you?

[XanatosVanBadass]

The main issue beyond all the bullshit is simple. Funimation, an American company, dared to think they new better then the people who ACTUALLY made the anime. They even did this long after replacement scores were unpopular. I don’t get how anyone in this community can be for the blatant Americanism and how fucking problematic it is.

You see what I mean by “exceptionalism” don’t you?

What the fuck are you on about? I mean I can’t tell if you’re agreeing with me or are pretending Americans DON’T make everything about them. If it’s the former, I apologize.

[Melee_Sovereign]

In a film or TV score, you bet there is.

What specific emotion does this track unequivocally convey?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLDvRcUht7I

Then the score should convey those things because they are specific and apply to the story and characters.

I think some of Faulconer's tracks do. But you know.... interpretation.

Explain how it applies to your point. You just linked to it, as if it's self evident why that song is meaningful.

The lyrics associate coolness with other qualities. Literally.

[GhostEmperorX]

What the fuck are you on about? I mean I can’t tell if you’re agreeing with me or are pretending Americans DON’T make everything about them. If it’s the former, I apologize.

Read through the previous page on the thread and you'll see that it's indeed the former.

[ABED]

What specific emotion does this track unequivocally convey?

It's a battle theme, so it could mean tension, anxiety, excitement, etc.

Also, you keep bringing up music that isn't score. Score's inherently different in that it's meant specifically to help a story, it's not the end in itself.

[Melee_Sovereign]

What specific emotion does this track unequivocally convey?

It's a battle theme, so it could mean tension, anxiety, excitement, etc.

"Could mean" i.e. an interpretation.

[ABED]

What specific emotion does this track unequivocally convey?

It's a battle theme, so it could mean tension, anxiety, excitement, etc.

"Could mean". i.e. an interpretation.

It's battle so it's not interpretation, it also depends on how it's placed. What's the story of the scene? Not an interpretation, at least not on the part of the viewer.

[Planetnamek]

The main issue beyond all the bullshit is simple. Funimation, an American company, dared to think they new better then the people who ACTUALLY made the anime. They even did this long after replacement scores were unpopular. I don’t get how anyone in this community can be for the blatant Americanism and how fucking problematic it is.

You see what I mean by “exceptionalism” don’t you?

What the fuck are you on about? I mean I can’t tell if you’re agreeing with me or are pretending Americans DON’T make everything about them. If it’s the former, I apologize.

That's not solely unique to Americans though, we've also been seeing a lot of that in the U.K. ever since this whole Brexit nonsense started.

[Melee_Sovereign]

It's battle so it's not interpretation

Your previous answer was an interpretation. And "battle" is not an emotion, and you only know it's about battle from the title, not the track alone.

It also depends on how it's placed. What's the story of the scene?

You can literally make the same point with the Faulconer track.

And an entire scene with its music, will still often be unclear with what emotions its trying to convey.

Not an interpretation, but thanks for playing.

I'm not trying to be condescending dude. Saying something "could be" under this contexts, basically means you're having an interpretation. Your answer to what emotions the track itself conveyed, was an interpretation. It wasn't a "this track objectively conveys these emotions" type answer.