Manga 'retcons'(?)

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Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Witty User Name » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:28 am

I am enjoying a lot the way Toriyama (since he is the one who comes up with the stories -- Toyotaro just draws) fixes things regarded as 'plotholes' by many fans -- my favourite example so far being the way he explains how Android 17 got to recognize Goku's voice back in the Buu arc. That one was just brillant, IMO.

What y'all think about this topic? Do you feel the same way? Are there any other examples you can think of where Toriyama ''fixes'' incoherent stuff in the series?

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Grimlock » Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:14 am

No, but I do remember some incoherent stuff popping up, such as:

• The relatively "harmless" kid Vegeta with bangs.

• The major one "one day passes in the present, one day passes in the future" (this one simply destroys everything we know about AGES and cannot, under any circumstances, be considered. Unless you want a completely broken timeline, of course).

• That Trunks explains he knows Taiyo-ken because Gohan taught him, even though Gohan most certainly didn't know about that technique.

And, in a way, Toyotaro using Toei's Yadorat kinda contradicts Dragon Ball Online, as they don't have such appearance in there. He should have sticked with just Dragon Ball Online's design.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:17 am

Grimlock wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:14 am
And, in a way, Toyotaro using Toei's Yadorat kinda contradicts Dragon Ball Online, as they don't have such appearance in there. He should have sticked with just Dragon Ball Online's design.
Couldn't a species be diverse enough to have individuals with significantly different appearances?
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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:37 pm

Unfortunately as an addendum to Grimlock's post, Manga Goku also knows of the Mafuba and its backstory, even though he wasn't present for that tale being told and it's never shown he learned about it after Piccolo and Kami used it at the 23rd Tournament.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Witty User Name » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:15 pm

Well, regardless, the Android 17 bit was good.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by MCDaveG » Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:03 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:14 am
No, but I do remember some incoherent stuff popping up, such as:

• The relatively "harmless" kid Vegeta with bangs.

• The major one "one day passes in the present, one day passes in the future" (this one simply destroys everything we know about AGES and cannot, under any circumstances, be considered. Unless you want a completely broken timeline, of course).

• That Trunks explains he knows Taiyo-ken because Gohan taught him, even though Gohan most certainly didn't know about that technique.

And, in a way, Toyotaro using Toei's Yadorat kinda contradicts Dragon Ball Online, as they don't have such appearance in there. He should have sticked with just Dragon Ball Online's design.
Gohan certainly did knew Taiyouken, as Kuririn used it against Dodoria and Freeza on Namek.
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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Grimlock » Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:30 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:17 am
Couldn't a species be diverse enough to have individuals with significantly different appearances?
It could, but you're seeing this from an in-universe perspective. In out-universe, we know Dragon Ball Online ignores all fillers and so Toriyama came up with another design for them which didn't include Toei's one. That means Yadorat is made up of just one variation. Which is why I said "in a way" and "kinda", there's no problem having the two of them, but that's not quite how Toriyama sees it.
MCDaveG wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:03 pm
Gohan certainly did knew Taiyouken, as Kuririn used it against Dodoria and Freeza on Namek.
"Certainly"? Then tell me how the heck can someone learn anything in this situation?

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by MCDaveG » Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:34 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:17 am
MCDaveG wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:03 pm
Gohan certainly did knew Taiyouken, as Kuririn used it against Dodoria and Freeza on Namek.
"Certainly"? Then tell me how the heck can someone learn anything in this situation?
Man, I am not animated martial artist, but if I was in Toriyama's skin, I will reply something like Buu also learned kamehameha by watching it or better, Gohan learned it trough image training with Kuririn on their way to Namek or anywhere offscreen/offpanel.
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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:37 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:14 am
• The major one "one day passes in the present, one day passes in the future" (this one simply destroys everything we know about AGES and cannot, under any circumstances, be considered. Unless you want a completely broken timeline, of course).
how so?

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by SSJgogeto » Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:42 pm

Witty User Name wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:28 am
What y'all think about this topic? Do you feel the same way?
More or less, there are some things that I like and some things that I don't. The Yadorats are a good example, I really like it for two reasons: IMO it was a smart move and I really don't want to DBO to be the future of the main series.

But the number of things I like is low, and there's a lot that I think doesn't make sense, like Porunga understanding Goku's wish.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Grimlock » Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:33 pm

MCDaveG wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:34 pm
if I was in Toriyama's skin, I will reply something like Buu also learned kamehameha by watching it
If you did that, you wouldn't have a point. Gohan is not Buu. If I remember correctly, Buu's ability of learning just by seeing once is even regarded by Goku as an impressive feat. Which means not everyone does that.
MCDaveG wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:34 pm
or better, Gohan learned it trough image training with Kuririn on their way to Namek or anywhere offscreen/offpanel.
"A bit" (and I'm being generous) far-fetched, isn't? Learning something Gohan doesn't even know Kuririn has it through mental images (not that that "mental training" makes sense to begin with but anyway). Even if that were the case, Gohan was never seen using Taiyo-ken anyway. Gohan was very close to Piccolo but also seemingly didn't learn Makankosappo too, let alone he would learn a technique he only "saw" once in an unfavorable situation to learn anything.
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:37 pm
how so?
If one day passing in the present equals to one day passing in the future, that obviously means time works the same way between present and future. That means, for example, if three years passes in the present, three years passes in the future too. Which is not the case at all. When Trunks first arrived in the present (in AGE 764) and returned three years later (in AGE 767), in the future only one year had passed (AGE 784 is the year he went 20 years in the past. AGE 785 is the year he returns and kills the androids).

But if we apply this Toyotaro's logic, then Trunks should have killed the androids in AGE 787 (because three years should have passed in the future too). There is a three-year timeskip until Cell appears and is defeated by Trunks, instead of the original AGE 788, it would be AGE 790. The gap between Cell and Goku Black is eight years (originally: AGE 788 - AGE 796), with Toyotaro's thing, that eight-year gap would mean Future Trunks saga takes place in AGE 798. This time, Trunks went seventeen years back in time, so: AGE 798 - 17 = AGE 781. That means Trunks should have appeared two years after the original year (AGE 779) and one year after the events of the Universe Survival saga and he should've got to know his little sister.

See? We can't consider that information at all (and the same goes to that "41 years ago" in Dragon Ball Super Broly too. Causing equally headache).

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Peach » Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:46 pm

I don't care about the manga. The Super tv show and comic book are both really bad.

I only care about the films, tbh.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:50 am

Peach wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:46 pm
I don't care about the manga. The Super tv show and comic book are both really bad.

I only care about the films, tbh.
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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by emperior » Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:18 am

I have no problems with Gohan knowing Taiyoken or Goku the Mafuuba. Those “retcons” (they aren’t retcons in my opinion) served the story.

So what if Goku was the one remembering the Mafuuba and not Piccolo? It was a way to advance the plot faster, as having Piccolo conveniently be there to suggest it would serve no purpose. And we don’t have to see Goku being told all about the Mutaito story - we just assume that, at some point, someone told him that.

And exactly why shouldn’t Future Gohan know of Taiyoken? Do you really think he only saw the technique when Krillin did it on Namek? Perhaps Goku taught him it.
But most likely he really learned it there on Namek, it’s not like it was a particularly difficult technique to learn considering Goku and Krillin could emulate it with ease after Tenshinan used it at the tournament.
A fighting genius like Gohan should have no problems using it. And he probably used it many times to run away from the androids.
And by the way the manga never told if Z warriors all died in the first fight with the androids. Maybe Krillin or Tenshinan or even Chaozu (who probably didn’t join the first fight) were able to survive the first encounter with the androids, and tried to train Gohan a little and taught him some moves?
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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:13 pm

emperior wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:18 am
I have no problems with Gohan knowing Taiyoken or Goku the Mafuuba. Those “retcons” (they aren’t retcons in my opinion) served the story.

So what if Goku was the one remembering the Mafuuba and not Piccolo? It was a way to advance the plot faster, as having Piccolo conveniently be there to suggest it would serve no purpose. And we don’t have to see Goku being told all about the Mutaito story - we just assume that, at some point, someone told him that.

And exactly why shouldn’t Future Gohan know of Taiyoken? Do you really think he only saw the technique when Krillin did it on Namek? Perhaps Goku taught him it.
But most likely he really learned it there on Namek, it’s not like it was a particularly difficult technique to learn considering Goku and Krillin could emulate it with ease after Tenshinan used it at the tournament.
A fighting genius like Gohan should have no problems using it. And he probably used it many times to run away from the androids.
And by the way the manga never told if Z warriors all died in the first fight with the androids. Maybe Krillin or Tenshinan or even Chaozu (who probably didn’t join the first fight) were able to survive the first encounter with the androids, and tried to train Gohan a little and taught him some moves?
I agree, Gohan not learning on-screen a quite simple technique(the simplest technique ever maybe? sure looks easier than flying) doesn't prevent him from learning it off-screen nor does it mean he COULD NOT learn it at all some other time off-screen. From many people really, not just from Krilin. It's not like Gohan wasn't anywhere near Earth after Namek and had no contact with anybody. Hell, it's such a simple technique that I wouldn't be surprise if he just saw it on Namek and then tried to replicate it on his own. We also never got to see Krilin or Yamcha learn how to fly, but there they are, harder stuff can be learned off-screen.

I also don't see a problem with Goku knowing ABOUT mafuuba, he did spent a great deal of time training with Kami, why wouldn't he know about it if it was what stopped Piccolo the 1st time? he even saw it in action when Kami was in Shen's body. It's not like he knew how to do it all along, he still had to learn the technique before going to the future.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:06 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:33 pm
When Trunks first arrived in the present (in AGE 764) and returned three years later (in AGE 767), in the future only one year had passed (AGE 784 is the year he went 20 years in the past. AGE 785 is the year he returns and kills the androids).
You are forgetting he moved forward 3 years in the SAME timeline, instead of moving back to his future.

And the parallel chronal displacement is only stated between Future Timeline<->Main Timeline

As fare the Time Machine is concerned, then, it spent only 1 year in "not the original timeline".
See? We can't consider that information at all (and the same goes to that "41 years ago" in Dragon Ball Super Broly too. Causing equally headache).
how so?
I think the only headache is Goku's actual age, which we never knew for sure

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Grimlock » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:18 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:06 pm
You are forgetting he moved forward 3 years in the SAME timeline, instead of moving back to his future.
Not forgetting anything, that's all there is to it. And no, when Trunks leaves the present, he goes back to his future. He doesn't go anywhere else.
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:06 pm
how so?
Because it also forces all the events to change dates, thus causing problems.
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:06 pm
I think the only headache is Goku's actual age, which we never knew for sure
Not really. Goku's birth year was always AGE 737. But if we consider that Goku spent a full three years inside the incubator, that means his new birth year is AGE 736. Fortunately, there's a simple solution for that. The problems that "41 years ago" brings is far more worrying than just a mere difference of one year in birth years.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by MCDaveG » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:17 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:33 pm
MCDaveG wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:34 pm
if I was in Toriyama's skin, I will reply something like Buu also learned kamehameha by watching it
If you did that, you wouldn't have a point. Gohan is not Buu. If I remember correctly, Buu's ability of learning just by seeing once is even regarded by Goku as an impressive feat. Which means not everyone does that.
MCDaveG wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:34 pm
or better, Gohan learned it trough image training with Kuririn on their way to Namek or anywhere offscreen/offpanel.
"A bit" (and I'm being generous) far-fetched, isn't? Learning something Gohan doesn't even know Kuririn has it through mental images (not that that "mental training" makes sense to begin with but anyway). Even if that were the case, Gohan was never seen using Taiyo-ken anyway. Gohan was very close to Piccolo but also seemingly didn't learn Makankosappo too, let alone he would learn a technique he only "saw" once in an unfavorable situation to learn anything.
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:37 pm
how so?
If one day passing in the present equals to one day passing in the future, that obviously means time works the same way between present and future. That means, for example, if three years passes in the present, three years passes in the future too. Which is not the case at all. When Trunks first arrived in the present (in AGE 764) and returned three years later (in AGE 767), in the future only one year had passed (AGE 784 is the year he went 20 years in the past. AGE 785 is the year he returns and kills the androids).

But if we apply this Toyotaro's logic, then Trunks should have killed the androids in AGE 787 (because three years should have passed in the future too). There is a three-year timeskip until Cell appears and is defeated by Trunks, instead of the original AGE 788, it would be AGE 790. The gap between Cell and Goku Black is eight years (originally: AGE 788 - AGE 796), with Toyotaro's thing, that eight-year gap would mean Future Trunks saga takes place in AGE 798. This time, Trunks went seventeen years back in time, so: AGE 798 - 17 = AGE 781. That means Trunks should have appeared two years after the original year (AGE 779) and one year after the events of the Universe Survival saga and he should've got to know his little sister.

See? We can't consider that information at all (and the same goes to that "41 years ago" in Dragon Ball Super Broly too. Causing equally headache).
We are discussing a kids’ manga anyways, so you have a point, but still. It’s the same as Goku learning teleport on Yadrat or fusion off-screen and simply told us in a text bubble.
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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by SSJgogeto » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:29 pm

There's any mention about ages in the original work? If not, maybe the "17 years" thing could work, because the whole "one day in present = one day in future" makes a lot of sense.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Grimlock » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:05 pm

MCDaveG wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:17 pm
It’s the same as Goku learning teleport on Yadrat or fusion off-screen and simply told us in a text bubble.
Not the same at all. Like you said, Goku learned those off-screen but then we all see both being used on-screen. And like I said, we don't see Gohan using Taiyo-ken on-screen at all to begin assuming he learned it off-screen or through mental images.
SSJgogeto wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:29 pm
There's any mention about ages in the original work?
Yes. All the events and their dates as we know it were based on this single mention.

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