Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

[Thunderbird]

I don't necessarily see that as a good thing. I rather them just reuse an established character than give us a carbon copy.

And that line of thinking is why they don't try anymore.

[Melee_Sovereign]

I don't necessarily see that as a good thing. I rather them just reuse an established character than give us a carbon copy.

And that line of thinking is why they don't try anymore.

What do you mean? We got Beerus, Hit, Zamasu and Moro who are all quite original (two of them aren't villains per se, but they were antagonists), and also aren't some off-shot of a pre-existing character.

[SupremeKai25]

"Dont try anymore" when:

- Freeza got a ton of character development in both the RoF and ToP arcs as well as a new form;

- Hit is pretty much one of the most unique characters in the franchise, since he relies on cunning and subterfuge rather than sheer strength like a lot of other antagonists;

- Zamasu is a very elaborate villain, with a unique personality, motivations, a ton of special techniques and creative fighting style (making use of both Saiyan strength and immortality, as well as being the same person so having perfect coordination), and several different forms (Present Zamasu, Future Zamasu, Fused Zamasu, Infinite Zamasu, Goku Black);

- Jiren, a character who at the very least does seem to be a lot more than just a walking wall of plot strength. They tried to write him as an unstable person who refused to make bonds ever again, after friendship could not save his parents and his master. Meeting Goku opened his eyes and made him realize the power of trust. This already puts him above pretty much every Z movie villain, at least he actually shows a personality;

- Broly, they brought him back and tried to overhaul his personality and improve his design, as well as better developing all of his forms and powers. They didnt just copy paste him like the Broly sequels did in Z.

I am not counting Moro because I havent read the manga, but from what I have heard he is quite unique with his planet absorption technique.

[ABED]

-Freeza's development is fairly stock. He has a weird bond with Goku, but we've seen that sort of thing before plenty of times where an antagonist fights Goku and begins changing due to the purity of Goku's motives.

-Jiren is really a walking wall of "plot strength". It works in this context and I like the character, but there's not much there. He serves his function well.

-Broly's boring in any incarnation, no matter that he's now canon and a good guy.

-I know you love Zamasu, but I wish they hadn't combined it on the Future Trunks arc. Despite the differences, it feels very been there done that.

Dragon Ball is at its best when it is either treading new ground or in the little moments. Bringing back Freeza was one of its worst ideas, even if I do get to hear more of Ayres' Freeza.

[Grimlock]

What comedic unprofessional BS?

Finishing a story by making you living with yourself.

[ABED]

What comedic unprofessional BS?

Finishing a story by making you living with yourself.

Are you talking about the Zen Oh's?

[Grimlock]

No (though Zeno being affected by timelines is also a silly thing to do), I'm talking about Trunks.

[Thunderbird]

What do you mean? We got Beerus, Hit, Zamasu and Moro who are all quite original (two of them aren't villains per se, but they were antagonists), and also aren't some off-shot of a pre-existing character.

Beerus was fine but the others aren't that original. Hits ability to stop time is just what Guldo could do but with a different spin on it and his abilities are the most creative in the entirety of Super too.

Zamasu is just a green Shin with immortality which Garlic Jr had.

Moro is yet another humanoid animal character, his magic boils down to eating energy to get stronger like Cell and there's nothing to him but being generically evil.

Then Jiren had nothing going for him. Broly is just a villain from the past. They brought Frieza back from the past. Goku Black was just an evil Goku.

It's not really a good showing over the last seven years.

[ABED]

Zamasu is just a green Shin with immortality which Garlic Jr had.

Same species, but COMPLETELY different personalities. Now you are reaching for reasons to hate on modern DB.

No (though Zeno being affected by timelines is also a silly thing to do), I'm talking about Trunks.

Then I don't see your point.

[Melee_Sovereign]

Hits ability to stop time is just what Guldo could do but with a different spin on it and his abilities are the most creative in the entirety of Super too.

Hit has general time manipulation powers, not just stopping time.

Also, Guldo's is just an ability of his slapped onto his character. Hit having the ability fits his entire design as an assassin. It's less about who came first and more about who overall has the better design to go with the ability. Hit is a far better designed character than Guldo despite Guldo being a Z character.

Also I think Hit's Time-Skip is just that. Skipping time, not freezing it (though he can do that too, but I think this is a separate technique). Meaning if he performs an action, he can skip over some segment of that action.

Also how can you criticize Hit having a similar ability to Guldo, but otherwise is a completely different character, but say that the Z movie villains are original? We literally got Frieza 2.0, Cell 2.0, and Buu 2.0 in those movies.

Zamasu is just a green Shin with immortality which Garlic Jr had.

Zamasu is one of the only villains in Dragon Ball who is self-rightous and a genuinely a corrupt and disturbed individual. Most other villains (including Garlic Jr.) are just plain evil for the sake of being evil.

You're focusing way too much on what these characters look like and what abilities they have rather than their characterization.

Moro is yet another humanoid animal character, his magic boils down to eating energy to get stronger like Cell and there's nothing to him but being generically evil.

In all honesty, I haven't read the manga yet. I just thought Moro was interesting from what I've read about him. But fair enough.

They really dropped the ball with Jiren. He could have been a much better character than what we got, but it's not too late for him to have better character development in the future. He looks cool at least.

[Grimlock]

Then I don't see your point.

Probably because you liked that ending (?).

[WittyUsername]

On the subject of original villains, I really wish we’d get a villain who has a grudge against the gods. We got a villain who hates humans/mortals with Zamasu, but what about someone who hates gods like Beerus for understandable reasons? I’ve had this idea of a villain who’s home planet was destroyed by Beerus, and decides to get revenge by targeting Beerus’ favorite planet, which would be Earth in this case.

Hell, that throwaway line in Super about how Freeza wanted to overthrow Zen-Oh would’ve made for a pretty damn interesting story. I’d much rather have an arc about Freeza trying to overthrow the gods over making him into a villain from an 80s Saturday morning cartoon.

[SupremeKai25]

Zamasu and Shin don't even look similar, I don't know how anyone could confuse them Of all the flaws you could've pointed out about this character, you chose something that is objectively wrong.

On the subject of original villains, I really wish we’d get a villain who has a grudge against the gods. We got a villain who hates humans/mortals with Zamasu, but what about someone who hates gods like Beerus for understandable reasons? I’ve had this idea of a villain who’s home planet was destroyed by Beerus, and decides to get revenge by targeting Beerus’ favorite planet, which would be Earth in this case.

Hell, that throwaway line in Super about how Freeza wanted to overthrow Zen-Oh would’ve made for a pretty damn interesting story. I’d much rather have an arc about Freeza trying to overthrow the gods over making him into a villain from an 80s Saturday morning cartoon.

Hearts in Heroes is that, he is a mortal who hates Zeno and wants to free mortals from his tyranny. Probably because a kid should not have the power to, you know, wipe out all of existence in seconds. Also, I guess this is spoiler territory about Heroes

Spoiler:

when Hearts become the "ultimate godslayer", his first and only victim ironically is Fused Zamasu, because he wanted to end all Gods.

[ABED]

Then I don't see your point.

Probably because you liked that ending (?).

Maybe, but I can understand something without agreeing. I don't understand what your specific issue is with the ending. What about the two Trunks's at the end bothered you?

[Grimlock]

I don't have a specific issue, I have everything against this notion. From imagining that this is a thing to its execution. Or would this be better than Trunks staying in the present? Better than him becoming a Time Patroller? Or, who knows, better than killing him off?



A lot of people out there don't like Trunks "dating" Mai for their natural difference in age, I don't see much problem with that. But maybe whatever they have against that idea is what I have against this nonsense.

[JulieYBM]

I don't have a specific issue, I have everything against this notion. From imagining that this is a thing to its execution. Or would this be better than Trunks staying in the present? Better than him becoming a Time Patroller? Or, who knows, better than killing him off?

I feel like there should really be a Vegeta story arc where he tries to get Shen Long to restore Trunks' timeline but Shen Long is unable to, so he and Gokuu go to the Zen-Ou and they agree to restore it only if he goes on a quest for them to retrieve a lost item (which turns out to be something stupid, like a Gameboy link cable so that the two kids can play together). That's probably enough material for three or four episodes.

A lot of people out there don't like Trunks "dating" Mai for their natural difference in age, I don't see much problem with that. But maybe whatever they have against that idea is what I have against this nonsense.

The age difference doesn't matter if they're both adults, which I assume is what you were referring to.

With Present Trunks and Present Mai it's more of a gag than anything else. Even then it's hardly the biggest deal. Go read all the gender-bender or body-swap doujinshi where a 'guy' is given a younger girl's body and gets fucked by their previous best friend from when they were a 'guy'.

[SupremeKai25]

That's the point of the ending. It's to show that Future Trunks didn't win. He wanted to protect his timeline from Zamasu and he failed. So now he has to spend the rest of his days living with an alternate copy of all the people he knew. The existence of those alternate copies is proof of his failure and that's what he has to carry with him forever, almost like a burden.

That's why the Future Trunks arc has the darkest ending in Dragon Ball, there's no happy ending and the actions of the villain can't be undone. Maybe the Super Dragon Balls can restore the Future timeline, it depends if they transcend time, but Trunks seems to be okay living in a carbon copy of his old timeline.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I feel like there should really be a Vegeta story arc where he tries to get Shen Long to restore Trunks' timeline but Shen Long is unable to, so he and Gokuu go to the Zen-Ou and they agree to restore it only if he goes on a quest for them to retrieve a lost item (which turns out to be something stupid, like a Gameboy link cable so that the two kids can play together). That's probably enough material for three or four episodes. .

There is nothing frivolous about a link cable! I'd wage a few intergalactic wars myself for the chance to play Pokemon Red and Blue in the old way.

[ABED]

I'm really confused. What is all this talk about Two Trunks's? I don't recall that beside Future Trunks and Chibi Trunks

[Koitsukai]

I'm really confused. What is all this talk about Two Trunks's? I don't recall that beside Future Trunks and Chibi Trunks

Trunks is sent to live to another timeline, one before Zamasu gets all of his wishes and Beerus can erase him properly, a timeline where Trunks and Mai and Bulma are still alive and "our" Future Trunks will have to live with another version of himself and so will Mai.

While I don't care much for that ending, I'm more at odds with having Zeno come out of nowhere and pull the plug to the whole thing.