Manga 'retcons'(?)

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Grimlock
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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Grimlock » Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:29 pm

Then I'm gonna need a source where it outright states "it took three years to recharge the machine" like you said.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by SSJgogeto » Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:04 pm

Sadly I can't give it, it's in spanish and I don't have an account in a site like IMGUR to upload it. But then, in the same version of this it's said that it took three months to charge the time machine, so the mention about three years is probably wrong.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:24 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:20 pm
This don't make sense, and looks a little like headcanon.
No, it makes perfect sense.
In Trunks The Story it's stated the Time Machine requires about 8 months to recharge(source: https://imgur.com/a/I0KbNPd )

And without the Androids to cause troubles, there is no real reason for Trunks to delay his travel back to the past for so longer than the time to recharge.
He was also perfectly ready to fight Cell: most likely, therefore, he just waited to defeat Cell so to tell everybody in the past(if he actually went back) he completely cleaned up the future from the menace of the Androids, Cell included.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Grimlock » Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:45 pm

Exactly. Trunks waited three years because of Cell's appearance, not to recharge the Time Machine. That much is clear. He could have made the trip earlier, but he chose to wait for Cell.

By the way, it's kinda ironic seeing SSJgogeto saying I'm using "headcanon" (when I'm clearly not) when he's the one willing to ignore official stuff to favor his own preference. As explicit in this quote:

SSJgogeto wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:06 pm
Seems like it's only "inexplicable" if you count the guides and maybe the games, so I'm okay with that.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by SSJgogeto » Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:12 pm

I can say the same to you, you just ignored what Bulma said about the 17 years. I don't know why, maybe because it would mess with everything you know, or invalide something in the games, maybe.
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:24 pm
SSJgogeto wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:20 pm
This don't make sense, and looks a little like headcanon.
No, it makes perfect sense.
In Trunks The Story it's stated the Time Machine requires about 8 months to recharge(source: https://imgur.com/a/I0KbNPd )

And without the Androids to cause troubles, there is no real reason for Trunks to delay his travel back to the past for so longer than the time to recharge.
He was also perfectly ready to fight Cell: most likely, therefore, he just waited to defeat Cell so to tell everybody in the past(if he actually went back) he completely cleaned up the future from the menace of the Androids, Cell included.
That's reasonable, but I still have some doubts. He still could have travelled some years before and then used the time machine as a decoy.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Grimlock » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:10 pm

You're talking about when it comes to Trunks' first travel? If so, it's not that I ignored, that information must be ignored so that everything else can make sense. Also, you can't even compare, you are willing to ignore all the official stuff to favor your headcanon, I'm ignoring one line to favor another official line so that things make sense.

It is a fact that Trunks' first travel is twenty years and it cannot be changed. It's his next travels that are seventeen years.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by SSJgogeto » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:36 pm

Nah, not really. It only must be ignored if you use data from Daizenshuu, as far as I know. When it comes exclusively to manga it means nothing, unless you can prove it. And I'm not ignoring anything, I just said that the conclusion about all of that being Trunks plan don't make sense for me. You can say that about some things in the series, but it will not change the fact that these things happened.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Grimlock » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:57 pm

I don't need to prove anything. Again, the timeline seen in the guidebook was made based on AGE 788 in the manga. If you think they were wrong, all you need to do is making a timeline of your own based on the year already mentioned in the manga and see if they really were wrong. You can't accuse someone or something if you aren't willing to debunk. You yourself can show up with the evidence here.

And even if you show up with your own AGES (which I guarantee you it will be the same one the guidebooks presented, because they were not wrong. But that you'll see for yourself), you will have to consider both Trunks' line saying he came from "20 years" in the future and Bulma's erroneous line saying that Trunks will travel "17 years" into the past and you will have to choose either one. But hey, to you "what comes next is always what counts", right? Then, who knows? Maybe in your timeline, identical to the official one, Trunks' first travel being the "17" one will make sense? I doubt, but again, do it and we'll see it.

Also, why it doesn't make sense? Why wouldn't Trunks wait for Cell to defeat him? Why would he take any chances?

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by SSJgogeto » Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:33 pm

Grimlock wrote:You can't accuse someone or something if you aren't willing to debunk. You yourself can show up with the evidence here.
But I already did that:
The guide was based in age 738? Ok, but seems like they used outdata to complete all the information. The manga have a lot of retcons and they just didn't take this retcon into account, so it's fair to say that the guide is at least partially incorrect. It's more or less like SS2, how Daizenshuu calls it, Super Saiyan Grade 5? If that's true, you will probably stick with the guide, right?

Also, when someone says "I don't need to prove anything" it generally means "I don't know how to prove it". So if you don't know, just admit it, man.
Grimlock wrote:Why would he take any chances?
Precisely, why would he take any chances? The time machine was there, charged and possibly with the destiny already programmed. What if Cell fooled Trunks and/or made Bulma a hostage then stealled the time machine?

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Grimlock » Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:28 am

SSJgogeto wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:33 pm
It's more or less like SS2, how Daizenshuu calls it, Super Saiyan Grade 5? If that's true, you will probably stick with the guide, right?
And with this, you just confirmed you don't even know what you're talking about. Maybe someone else could explain to you why you are also wrong with this failed attempt to compare apples and oranges, not gonna do it. Anyway.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by SSJgogeto » Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:26 am

Wow.

Seriously, this probably is one of the best examples of "go off on a tangent" I've ever seen in this forum. Well played, bro.

Well, back in to the topic, I think nobody here talked about Vegetto and the time limit. I think the idea is very good, we finally get a good explanation about what happened in Boo saga, but I don't like the execution in the manga.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:37 am

Well I like how Fused Zamasu in the manga is 100% immortal. It never made sense that Fused Zamasu had an half-mortal body in the anime, because there are no middle grounds in a fusion. For example, Vegito was not in a limbo between life and dead in the Buu arc, he was 100% alive despite one of the fusées being dead. Since Future Zamasu was clearly the dominant personality, Fused Zamasu should've been 100% immortal, like in the manga.

However, it's stupid that Fused Zamasu in the manga was not an official Supreme Kai. How could Future Zamasu use the time ring if he had not officially ascended to Supreme Kai? This felt like a lazy way to give Fused Zamasu a disadvantage, since he'd be too OP if he had immortality and no time limit.
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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by ABED » Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:57 am

Didn't Trunks originally say the cyborgs that would destroy the world were 19 & 20, not 17 & 18?
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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:49 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:57 am
Didn't Trunks originally say the cyborgs that would destroy the world were 19 & 20, not 17 & 18?
Yeah even Viz kept that translation in.
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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:03 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:12 pm
That's reasonable, but I still have some doubts. He still could have travelled some years before and then used the time machine as a decoy.
Absolutely possible, nothing forbids multiple trips.

It never made sense that Fused Zamasu had an half-mortal body in the anime,
Always interpreted it as Fused Zamasu' body being immortal but not perfectly regenerating, at least over a small amount of time.
We WERE given the hypothesis of a Potara Fusion actually weaker than the strongest component(Goku+Satan), if just by an unreliable source like Goku

So Merged Zamasu losing a part of his regeneration while remaining fully immortal is not without a base.

If anything, it's the manga with Zamasu remaining merged after the time-limit that makes no sense whatsoever.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:52 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:03 pm
SSJgogeto wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:12 pm
That's reasonable, but I still have some doubts. He still could have travelled some years before and then used the time machine as a decoy.
Absolutely possible, nothing forbids multiple trips.

It never made sense that Fused Zamasu had an half-mortal body in the anime,
Always interpreted it as Fused Zamasu' body being immortal but not perfectly regenerating, at least over a small amount of time.
We WERE given the hypothesis of a Potara Fusion actually weaker than the strongest component(Goku+Satan), if just by an unreliable source like Goku

So Merged Zamasu losing a part of his regeneration while remaining fully immortal is not without a base.

If anything, it's the manga with Zamasu remaining merged after the time-limit that makes no sense whatsoever.
The problem is that in the anime it's stated that he no longer had a fully invincible body, the regeneration being flawed is a consequence of that. They explain why (there's an unstable balance between his immortal soul and half-mortal body), but I never really liked the explanation. Zamasu's immortal state was granted to him by the most powerful artifacts in the cosmos, it should have "overwritten" the mortal half of Black and made the fusion fully immortal. At the same time I can't really blame them. Fused Zamasu in the anime was OP as fuck and had no time limit, so if he was also 100% immortal then they'd have to use Zeno immediately. But then Fused Zamasu would die in 10 seconds, and that's boring.

I found the manga explanation for Zamasu remaining fused interesting. It plays into the idea that Fused Zamasu is really just Zamasu^2, which made them merge at a cellular level. It just makes sense to me that the fusion of two people who are the same person would be more unique and resistant than a normal fusion.
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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Witty User Name » Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:31 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:57 am
Didn't Trunks originally say the cyborgs that would destroy the world were 19 & 20, not 17 & 18?
Yes, and this is a know ''plothole'' in the manga -- I think the anime corrected it, IIRC?

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Witty User Name » Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:34 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:26 am
Wow.

Seriously, this probably is one of the best examples of "go off on a tangent" I've ever seen in this forum. Well played, bro.
Yeah, seems like only a few got interested in the question proposed in the OP. lol

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by Grimlock » Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:58 pm

But what you proposed is something that there wouldn't be enough to discuss to begin with (which is why I brought the opposite of what you asked). Since you created this thread in the Dragon Ball Super category, supposedly you'd want to hear stuff from said series. The problem is that we don't know everything that came from Toriyama that "fixes" something in the Dragon Ball Super.

Do we even know if Android 17 remembering Goku's voice comes from Toriyama? We can't say for sure that "Toyotaro just draws", as you put it. Always keep in mind that the Namekuseijin book comes from Toriyama but Toyotaro didn't include it in his manga (yet curiously, Toei did), among other things.

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Re: Manga 'retcons'(?)

Post by ABED » Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:45 pm

Witty User Name wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:31 pm
ABED wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:57 am
Didn't Trunks originally say the cyborgs that would destroy the world were 19 & 20, not 17 & 18?
Yes, and this is a know ''plothole'' in the manga -- I think the anime corrected it, IIRC?
I think it qualifies as a retcon, not a plot hole but I think you're correct about the anime correcting it.
VERY BROADLY speaking, it's the correct term. But it's almost never used in such broad way.

A better term in this instance would be "reveal". I think.
I'm usually all for being pedantic, but in this context given the nature of the subject, I think having an overly exact definition is fruitless. A hot dog can arguably fall under the category of a sandwich but if you ask someone for any kind of sandwich would you want them to give you a hot dog?

A reveal gives the audience information it didn't have before. A retcon supplants old information and acts like it was always the case. In this case, Toriyama changing the cyborgs numbers would fall under the category of retcon.
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