Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

[Mad Swami]

Kid Buu has to be weaker than Super Buu. Super Buu is at least 3x stronger than Goku SSJ3 and it's never mentioned Goku's power rises significantly. SSJ3 Goku however was stronger than Kid Buu but wouldn't even dare of fighting Super Buu not even with Vegeta's help

[Grimlock]

I don't want to be a dick to you, Grim, but that part of my post was supposed to be sarcastic in response to Thunderbird's "point" about palette swaps and forms and designs are nothing different about the character except for a color swap and other minor aesthetic differences. So I was sarcastically saying that Kid Buu and Super Buu are the same even though they're not.

Oh I totally get the context of your conversation. That is why I intentionally left everything out and focused solely on that part. To bring my own point on something not actually related to the theme of your original conversation. I do that a lot, so if you didn't like it, just don't mind me and sorry. It's just that it kinda irks me a bit whenever I see Buu being referred as "Kid Buu". Anyway.

Dig the "Grim" nickname, though. First time someone does that.

[TheNingen]

I don't want to be a dick to you, Grim, but that part of my post was supposed to be sarcastic in response to Thunderbird's "point" about palette swaps and forms and designs are nothing different about the character except for a color swap and other minor aesthetic differences. So I was sarcastically saying that Kid Buu and Super Buu are the same even though they're not.

Oh I totally get the context of your conversation. That is why I intentionally left everything out and focused solely on that part. To bring my own point on something not actually related to the theme of your original conversation. I do that a lot, so if you didn't like it, just don't mind me and sorry. It's just that it kinda irks me a bit whenever I see Buu being referred as "Kid Buu". Anyway.

Dig the "Grim" nickname, though. First time someone does that.

Ah! I understand that! I have absolutely no issue with that at all. Just wanted to make sure that we were on the same page and there wasn't a misunderstanding (happens to me a lot). And yeah, I've seen a few of your posts and know that you like the correct usage of terms and names (No problems with that either ) it's just a bad habit I have using Dubisms when it comes to names.

Glad you dig the nickname though! I'll make sure to use it if we have future conversations

[Thunderbird]

Actually, yes, being thinner means he's not just a color palette swap, because then you can't have Goku Black just by switching Goku's colors.

Yes it does, you're trying to be overly literal to excuse what is obviously a palette swapped design. It's 90% Goku with different colours and 10% some simple tweaking, like sleeves...

Also that character design would be unoriginal if there wasn't an in-universe reason for it. Zamasu is a young Supreme Kai, so he's gonna look similar to Shin, another young Supreme Kai.

No this was already proven wrong what with South and Grand Supreme Kai not looking anything like Shin. Grand Supreme Kai could very well have looked like a member of a different race entirely. South Supreme Kai could pass as human.

There was no reason for Zamasu to look anything like Shin, he could have looked like anything.

Goku Black looks similar to Goku because he's Goku but with black clothes, obviously he's not going to be an eldritch monster with 3 mouths.

Of course but the point is that they went with that idea over anything that was actually unique. So they bring back old Frieza, then have a colour palette swapped Goku, then they bring back Broly, then now there's an animal antagonist.

The only real original antagonists have been Hit whose fine and Jiren who not only has a generic design but absolutely no unique abilities at all.

But the common denominator is that they all resemble each other in some way

In hairstyle and clothing. Clothing being understandable. The Kai's in DBZ all looked different with the exception of East Supreme Kai. That they look similar in Super would obviously be no argument because the show in its entirety is uncreative so naturally they almost look the same.

Did you ever see anyone criticize Bardock by saying that he's not creative because he's literally just Goku with a scar?

Bardock was not even designed by Toriyama I don't think. But back then it was uncommon, for every design that was lacking in creativity there was a whole batch that were creative.

Yeah there was Turles with his copycat unoriginal design but then you had Dr Wheelo before that. Now we can't even get a new character that looks like another character, they just bring back old ones for the movies.

Yet again you're making the same mistake as before by pointing out a specific and not seeing the bigger point. Whatever uncreative designs were made back then were dwarfed by the amount of creative ones. Bardock was introduced around the same time as Frieza, Zarbon, Dodoroa, Cui, the Ginyu Force etc.

Nowadays, you only get uncreative designs. It's now become uncommon to get actually get a good creative character design.

[ABED]

Yet again you're making the same mistake as before by pointing out a specific and not seeing the bigger point. Whatever uncreative designs were made back then were dwarfed by the amount of creative ones. Bardock was introduced around the same time as Frieza, Zarbon, Dodoroa, Cui, the Ginyu Force etc.

But you gloss over important things like the similarities being used as a visual shorthand. You seem incapable of understanding that point.

Elder Kaioshin when he was younger looked a lot like the current Kaioshin.

Unique designs are a wonderful thing, but sometimes there are valid creative reasons to use a similar design.

[Thunderbird]

But you gloss over important things like the similarities being used as a visual shorthand. You seem incapable of understanding that point.

Because that's a copout.

Elder Kaioshin when he was younger looked a lot like the current Kaioshin.

So? "When he was younger"? Really? He appeared in like one whole panel in a flashback as opposed to the 99.9% of his other appearances where yet again he looked nothing remotely like Shin or Grand Supreme Kai or South Supreme Kai.

"Elder Kai kinda looked like Shin when he appeared very briefly in one panel so it's ok that a major antagonist and significant character looked had an unoriginal design on top of all the other lack of ideas".

Unique designs are a wonderful thing, but sometimes there are valid creative reasons to use a similar design.

But not in this case. As evidence shows there was never a need for Zamasu to look anything vaguely like Shin.

Gowasu had a more unique design than Shin. He's old and he don't look like Elder Kai so why does Zamasu have to look like Shin?

Let's not pretend there's any other reason behind it but that Toriyama hasn't got any ideas left in him and hasn't for a very long time.

[SupremeKai25]

I mean, you keep dismissing all the elements that make Zamasu different as me being "overtly literal" (even though hairstyle, nose, eyes, etc. are very important and distinguishing features in a character design), so there really isn't much left to discuss.

[ABED]

I'm so happy you gave that any consideration. Nope, you don't do that. Disappointing, but not surprising.

Because that's a copout.

Or you're just incapable of listening.

But not in this case. As evidence shows there was never a need for Zamasu to look anything vaguely like Shin.

It doesn't have to be necessary for it to be effective, and the Kaioshin all clearly look like members of the same race. There's nothing vague about it.

so there really isn't much left to discuss.

This was never a discussion. It's a lot of "lol, you guys are all stupid and wrong. I'm right and so smart."

[TheNingen]

I'm so happy you gave that any consideration. Nope, you don't do that. Disappointing, but not surprising.

Because that's a copout.

Or you're just incapable of listening.

But not in this case. As evidence shows there was never a need for Zamasu to look anything vaguely like Shin.

It doesn't have to be necessary for it to be effective, and the Kaioshin all clearly look like members of the same race. There's nothing vague about it.

so there really isn't much left to discuss.

This was never a discussion. It's a lot of "lol, you guys are all stupid and wrong. I'm right and so smart."

I mean, we ARE debating with the dude who just made the point that Gowasu should look like Elder Kai because he's old...when Elder Kai looks the way he does because he fused with an Old Witch and thus took on attributes of her appearance...And isn't just old old like Gowasu is...

We are clearly debating someone who is the epitome of inside-out understanding of Dragon Ball and has a strong understanding of the characters and why Toriyama does things the way he does. I mean, go over that point again. Just sheer genius! Who would have thought that a Kai who fuses with an old witch and took on some of her physical traits would look nothing like an unfused old kai? Clearly we are the dumb ones here, ABED.

[ABED]

The shame is, Thunderbird has SOME points worth considering. If only they weren't so condescending.

[SupremeKai25]

For your interest, Zamasu is one of the villains with the most forms, because he has:

- Present Zamasu/ Future Zamasu (yellow/green potara respectively)
- Goku Black:
-- SS1 Goku Black
-- SSRosé Goku Black
- Fused Zamasu:
-- Fused Zamasu (Corrupted Anime, he has purple goo on one side of his body)
-- Fused Zamasu (Corrupted Manga, one half is Black, one half is Zamasu)
-- "Mecha" Fused Zamasu from Heroes, with an eyepatch and mechanical support covering his formerly corrupted side
- Infinite Zamasu (Anime he is the thing on the sky, Manga he is the 1.000+ Fused Zamases)

So to say he's just uncreative trash, nothing more than a "Green Shin", is so disingenuous. A lot of work went into fleshing-out the various forms and techniques of this villain. A villain who appeared only for one arc, which lasted a total of 21 episodes (so not even a long arc).

[damn]

For my money DB went to shit after Freeza and never recovered.
Cell saga was the worst arc in the series and pretty much killed whatever future the series could have possibly had by being a massive slap in the face to long time fans in the worst way possible.
Boo saga was a little better but still just as bad.

I only watched the first episode of Super and dropped it after that...have not seen a single episode since then.
Not that I had any hopes for it but the moment I saw Goten and Trunks struggling against some snake it became clear to me just how little Toei(or Tori) cared.

If only I could go back in time and prevent DB Evolution from ever existing. Maybe DB Super would never happen then.
Some things just need to end and DB already ended 2 arcs too late originally.

[ABED]

damn, that seems extreme. The Cell arc killed the future of the series? You checked out because Goten and Trunks struggled against a snake?

I agree DB went past it's logical end, but it feels like your reasons for disliking the subsequent arcs are a tad shallow (e.g. power scaling).

[Skar]

In all honesty, it kind of seems like these forums are the only real place where you see people saying less than enthusiastic things about Super, and even then, that’s hardly the universal consensus on Kanzenshuu.

There isn't a universal consensus on this thread . I think it comes down to fan expectations. There are many fans who get their hopes up and then feel disappointed or misled. Some people complain that DBS focuses too much on fan service, callbacks, and nostalgia. I think it does but Toei and Toriyama are pretty open about appealing to fans in interviews. I wouldn't say it's 100% creatively bankrupt but I don't think anyone could argue it's more creative than the original series but the same with every revival. The original established the world, characters, and their development while a revival might add some new elements but mostly focuses on what made that series popular.

In the 30 year anniversary interview, Toriyama talked about struggling to come up with ideas after Freeza and that he wanted to end it with Buu because he didn't think he could create a stronger antagonist at the time. Toriyama is honest when ideas are suggested to him in DBS so he's not trying to hide the fact that he's still struggling now. I can't blame him because I don't know if there's going to any author who is going to put in as much effort decades after retiring than during their prime. I would prefer if an author ends their story at that point but I can't say it was all bad. I enjoyed his more light-hearted simpler stories like BoG and Broly. They work better in my opinion since DBS is taking place during a timeskip of peace.

[ABED]

The original established the world, characters, and their development while a revival might add some new elements but mostly focuses on what made that series popular.

And therein lies the problem. Instead of appealing to viewers, it appeals to fans. Hell, revivals appeal to fans instead of what made people fans. The best moments in any of these revivals have been when the story and characters progress. If all this stuff weren't streaming, I don't think i"d watch.

Nostalgia is a drug and like a drug, that high inevitably comes crashing down and chasing that same feeling becomes more and more a fool's errand.

[Matches Malone]

For my money DB went to shit after Freeza and never recovered.

I understand the criticism that's brought up against Cell and Buu, but they still offered great content and character development that enhanced the the manga's overall story.

The Cell arc gave us Ssj2 Gohan and someone other than Goku saving the day.
Future Trunks and his timeline were among the few tragic stories in the franchise.
Vegeta finally reached Ssj after all he went through on Namek.
Piccolo and Kami finally resolved their differences and became one again.
Cell and the androids all brought something unique and interesting to the table.

The Buu arc gave us closure to Vegeta's arc.
Mr Satan got his own arc here, despite being envisioned as a one time joke character.
The final battle, from the Spirit bomb, to Vegeta's plan, everyone played a part in it.
Fusion, a new concept that was very fresh at the time.
It gave each of the main 3 characters exciting new forms (Ssj3 for Goku, Mystic for Gohan, and Majin/Ssj2 for Vegeta)

Despite the problems pointed out with them, I can't look at the above points and others, and see a reality where the original manga is better off without these 2 arcs. When it comes to modern DB, I think the BOG movie capped off DB's story in a perfect way, so I would've been satisfied if that was the only story we got from it.

[ABED]

The Cell arc gave us Ssj2 Gohan and someone other than Goku saving the day.

It didn't really. Without Goku, Gohan was useless.

The Buu arc gave us closure to Vegeta's arc.
Mr Satan got his own arc here, despite being envisioned as a one time joke character.

These are the sort of things that matter, not power scaling BS. I have the occasional eye roll with that sort of thing but it doesn't bother me that much in the scheme of things. It's a well realized character arc that I'm looking for.

[Matches Malone]

It didn't really. Without Goku, Gohan was useless.

Are you really going to argue that Gohan didn't save the day ? Sure Goku supported him mentally and Vegeta distracted Cell for a split second, but Gohan was the real focus on the scene.

[ABED]

It didn't really. Without Goku, Gohan was useless.

Are you really going to argue that Gohan didn't save the day ? Sure Goku supported him mentally and Vegeta distracted Cell for a split second, but Gohan was the real focus on the scene.

No, but without Goku even telling him to not lay down and die, Gohan was ready to give in to fear had Goku not said anything. The real conflict didn't feel like Gohan vs. Cell. It still felt like Gohan was the gun, but Goku was the one who aimed and pulled the trigger.

[Thunderbird]

I mean, you keep dismissing all the elements that make Zamasu different as me being "overtly literal" (even though hairstyle, nose, eyes, etc. are very important and distinguishing features in a character design), so there really isn't much left to discuss.

Because those are minor tweaks. For that arc, the two main villains were not created from scratch. Goku Black was Goku with minor changes and Zamasu was Shin with simple alterations. Anyone could take a design and alternate like that. Anyone could take Jiren and slam on some hair, change his skin tone and make him less muscular.

That's not creative.

It doesn't have to be necessary for it to be effective, and the Kaioshin all clearly look like members of the same race.

Only based on clothing otherwise South Supreme Kai looks more like Android 16 than he does Shin.

It's a lot of "lol, you guys are all stupid and wrong. I'm right and so smart."

Well I definitely am right and I explained why already.

Resurrection F was not creative at all from its story, it's new transformations and bringing back Frieza.

The Universe 6 Saga was a standard Tournament with a format that had already been used. Predictable outcomes and only three of the eight new characters had truly original designs.

The Future Trunks Saga was a retooled version of the Android Saga except the characters go into the future where they find two uncreative characters. Uncreative new form for Trunks, another character that they had to bring back.

The Tournament of Power was yet another Tournament only half a year after they'd just finished the other one. Nothing but a big free for all. Another colour palette swapped transformation for Goku and Vegeta. Jiren was generic. Predictable outcome.

Broly obviously wasn't creative in any way. No need to elaborate on that, everyone knows that already.

Then this Moro arc has no creativity at all. It's a retooled version of the Namek, Buu Golden Frieza sagas combined with as generic a villain as you could come up with.

That's seven years worth of material where we've had a few creative designs like Beerus and Whis and Magetta...no creative transformations for the main characters...a few things in the story like there being a God of Destruction and Super Saiyan God....yeah really not much else at all.

The worst thing of all is that of all the possibilities there's really been no worthwhile new locations introduced. No new places on Earth of interest. Basic Tournament arenas. Namek again. Yadrat again. Colour palette swapped Supreme Kai's planet. Such a shame.

I mean, we ARE debating with the dude who just made the point that Gowasu should look like Elder Kai because he's old...

Incorrect, I never said that at any point. Please read carefully.