Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Noah
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:44 pm

Can anyone explain why Goku never attempted to go Super Saiyan 2 while in Blue?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:16 pm

Noah wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:44 pm
Can anyone explain why Goku never attempted to go Super Saiyan 2 while in Blue?
Perhaps it would be pointless, since he already can use Kaioken x20 in SSBlue. Using a SS2Blue wouldn’t give him as much as benefit and combining it with kaioken could be suicide. Using it with SSBlue alone is pretty taxing and has a low chance of success.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:46 am

If Super Saiyan Blue is just supposed to be Super Saiyan + Super Saiyan God. Then why is Super Saiyan Blue portrayed as being so significantly more powerful when Super Saiyan should be worthless alone.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:53 am

Noah wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:44 pm
Can anyone explain why Goku never attempted to go Super Saiyan 2 while in Blue?
Probably it's not "literally" SSJ1 + SSG, but more like "SSJ power/energy" + SSG, something like that. After all, Toriyama did state that SSJ2 and 3 are just enhacements of the SSJ1 form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Alruneia » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:06 am

Noah wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:44 pm
Can anyone explain why Goku never attempted to go Super Saiyan 2 while in Blue?
Toriyama once said that SS2 and SS3 are just powered up variations of SS1, and he essentially said that they'd be phased out. Honestly, I don't think SS2 or SS3 for Goku and Vegeta (and Black) have ever been part of Toriyama's outlines for the Super story arcs, and that's why SSG is only combined with SS1. (Though, in case it's not obvious, this is speculation.)
For an in-universe answer, there's no use for an SSGSS2. In the anime, the Kaioken multiplier is most likely better than SS2's multiplier over SS1, and in the manga they'd collapse instantly due to Blue being a draining form (to the point where they needed to invent the no-aura version) and SS2 also supposedly being draining.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:09 am

Noah wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:44 pm
Can anyone explain why Goku never attempted to go Super Saiyan 2 while in Blue?
If the series or other official sources didn't explain it, no one will. Why neither Goku nor Vegeta tried to use the power of Super Saiyan God while in Super Saiyan 2 we'll probably never know. It should be the case since it would be the strongest form, not considering Super Saiyan 3 for obvious reasons.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:34 pm

I imagine it's a harkening back to basics. Only the base and Super Saiyan forms are stable enough to serve as effective ways to channel the God Ki and immense power of the Super Saiyan God that brings with it.

As for why there's a significant difference, I like to think it's because Yamoshi was a Super Saiyan when he died and enabled the ritual to bring forth the power of SSG, thus meaning that Super Saiyan is simply channelling its full potential into Super Saiyan Blue. In essence, SSB is when SS and SSG are "reunited", so to speak.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:43 pm

How strong are is Ultimate Gohan and Kefla in the manga compared to say Super Saiyan God Goku and Vegeta? Or Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black?

Are they God level?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:56 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:43 pm
How strong are is Ultimate Gohan and Kefla in the manga compared to say Super Saiyan God Goku and Vegeta? Or Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black?

Are they God level?
Kafla is supposed to have the power of Kale and the fighting skills of Caulifla, to which Gohan is a match. Since Kale gave trouble to Freeza and Goku, I think it’s fair to assume Kafla and Gohan are god-tier too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:48 am

Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black didn't give Vegeta much trouble by the end so would Gohan and Kefla be stronger than him?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:41 am

Thunderbird wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:48 am
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black didn't give Vegeta much trouble by the end so would Gohan and Kefla be stronger than him?
Difficult to tell, because Vegeta was using strategy against Black, so until he figured out what was happening he already lost a good deal of strength. But it’s possible.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CortoMaltese » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:46 am

Thunderbird wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:43 pm
How strong are is Ultimate Gohan and Kefla in the manga compared to say Super Saiyan God Goku and Vegeta? Or Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black?

Are they God level?
Goku and Vegeta needs senzu before fusing (Futur Trunks saga and Broly movie).
So it's pretty clear fusion doesn't restore energy.
So fusion is warrior 1 + warrior 2 with multiplicator.
Caulifla was weaker than Goku SSJ and was severely beaten by Golden Frieza.
Kale was knockout by U11 team, the same guys that Goku SSJ beat with absolutely Zero difficulty.
So Kefla is the fusion of a weak warrior that is clearly weakened and a strong character totally KO.

I think a simple Goku SS3 can beat that type of fusion warrior.
For Gohan i think we'll have a confirmation of his true level with Goku against Saganbo.
Sadly for Gohan i'm afraid Goku blue alone will beat him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:13 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:41 am
Difficult to tell, because Vegeta was using strategy against Black, so until he figured out what was happening he already lost a good deal of strength. But it’s possible.
Well after perfecting Blue they were on par with Fused Zamasu so should be far above Goku Black. Depends if they're far above Gohan and Kefla to the same extent.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:36 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:48 am
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black didn't give Vegeta much trouble by the end so would Gohan and Kefla be stronger than him?
Yes and by a big margin.

Manga Black is patetically weak considering only Merged Zamasu was a match for Perfected Blue Goku.

Either Kefla or Gohan would one shot him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:34 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:36 pm
Thunderbird wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:48 am
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black didn't give Vegeta much trouble by the end so would Gohan and Kefla be stronger than him?
Yes and by a big margin.

Manga Black is patetically weak considering only Merged Zamasu was a match for Perfected Blue Goku.

Either Kefla or Gohan would one shot him.
Well, not exactly.

I mean, Perfected Super Saiyan Blue is, basically, the 100% full power of the form. Black uses a variation of the transformation, so, in a way, for a brief time he has that kind of power. Merged Zamasu could be seen as him using the full power of Super Saiyan Rosé all the time, since he was immortal and never got tired. In that regard, even though he doesn't know of the state, Merged Zamasu can be read as using his version of Perfected Blue, which is what allowed him to fight Goku with his own version. Since, in the manga, Zamasu himself is basically irrelevant to the fusion's power itself.

But yeah, SSR Black (manga) is definitely the weaker of the SSGSS's. So, at best, he could match Kefla and Gohan for a brief time, get winded because he never got to perfect Rosé, and get stomped.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:03 pm

No. Perfected Blue is said to be a stronger transformation than regular Blue.

Also Black never experienced any stamina issues and Merged Zamasu is stated to have gotten stronger by fusing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:26 pm

All Perfected Super Saiyan Blue was was Super Saiyan Blue while keeping that power contained. The only reason why its stronger is because it isn't progressively getting weaker by the second.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CortoMaltese » Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:27 am

So Gohan + C17 + Piccolo + C18 + Jaco are just some ants for a Saganbo restrained !
The Same Saganbo now at 100% is an ant against a restrained Goku BLUE !!!!

We knew Gohan has trained hard during several month between the TOP and now, so he follow the same road than Goku with same evolution !
And we know that Gohan can easily surpass his Buu Level in only few hours !
Even if Goku's training is more efficient (6month), it's now pretty clear Gohan and C17 have never been in SSBLUE tier in DBSUPER MANGA.

It's pretty clear Gohan need a new transformation to be relevant now !

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:05 am

I mean, we pretty much knew this. Gohan and 17 were getting there, but even together they had trouble against SSB-level base Toppo in the anime. I imagine they're closer to SSG than they are to SSB.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:03 pm

CortoMaltese wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:27 am
So Gohan + C17 + Piccolo + C18 + Jaco are just some ants for a Saganbo restrained !
The Same Saganbo now at 100% is an ant against a restrained Goku BLUE !!!!

We knew Gohan has trained hard during several month between the TOP and now, so he follow the same road than Goku with same evolution !
And we know that Gohan can easily surpass his Buu Level in only few hours !
Even if Goku's training is more efficient (6month), it's now pretty clear Gohan and C17 have never been in SSBLUE tier in DBSUPER MANGA.

It's pretty clear Gohan need a new transformation to be relevant now !
Wouldn't Kefla at least be Blue-tier?
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