"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:37 pm

The Undying wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:51 pm
Lionel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:15 pm
They didn't need to pedestal Goku yet again at that moment when we know he's going to predictably shine against Moro.
They absolutely did.

Moro is the main antagonist. Moro is also a lot stronger than in his previous encounter with Goku. It's obvious that Goku won't be "shining" against him right away, and even if he does, it's going to be short-lived.

There's a reason Toriyama often had Goku taking over for secondary protagonists in the original manga - you can't adequately show the growth of these characters if you're not demonstrating how they can succeed where the supporting cast fails. That's what Saganbo is for.
I was under the impression that Goku's performance against Moro directly could have spoken for itself. The wizard seems like it was intended to present an unorthodox challenge to Goku and Vegeta. Ultra Instinct might offer a dissimilar approach to combating him.

Pilfering the subordinate scraps just to reemphasise the reality of the food chain that has gone more or less unquestioned since the ROF arc doesn't help with his image of predominance because none of the other Z-fighters besides Vegeta have been able to contest him in years. Challenging a certain percentage of Moro's ability would have just as easily conveyed the obvious reality of Goku having improved himself and the ever so apparent circumstance of no one else being able to succeed where Goku does.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:39 pm

Noitsnothim wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:09 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:43 pm
Noitsnothim wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:53 pm


Thank you !!! that Godvegeta guy is annoying
You seriously need to drop down this attitude right now. If anyone is objectively annoying here now, it is YOU!

I attacked you on what you said. You attacked me on my character. That is much worse!

That’s all i’m going to say.
You can get on your knees and suck my dick now (I WAS RIGHT)
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:26 pm

Lionel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:37 pm
I was under the impression that Goku's performance against Moro directly could have spoken for itself.
I don't agree.

At best, this sort of hypothetical situation presents a circumstance wherein (improved) Goku might momentarily show the fruits of his labor against (also improved) Moro, but there's no catharsis for Goku's training results if he's continually fighting an uphill battle - which he inevitably will be against Moro, as the setup for Vegeta's training suggests.

Having Saganbo act as the measuring stick is a more straightforward approach. We know that Gohan is probably relatively close to Goku's strength as it stood in the previous arc, we know that Saganbo possesses some degree of Moro's power, and we know that he's stronger than every character in the supporting cast. Goku defeating him first is less muddied because it presents a more specific picture of how his newfound strength would compare to those who were catching up to him prior to his growth... in other words, to his own previous level of strength.

No matter how you slice it, this is a tried-and-true narrative technique. Toriyama used it multiple times, and, in my opinion, for good reason. I don't know what giving Gohan/Piccolo another victory would have accomplished other than making their fans happy, but I don't think that should be prioritized over what makes the most sense for the central characters.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:03 pm

The Undying wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:26 pm
Lionel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:37 pm
I was under the impression that Goku's performance against Moro directly could have spoken for itself.
I don't agree.

At best, this sort of hypothetical situation presents a circumstance wherein (improved) Goku might momentarily show the fruits of his labor against (also improved) Moro, but there's no catharsis for Goku's training results if he's continually fighting an uphill battle - which he inevitably will be against Moro, as the setup for Vegeta's training suggests.

Having Saganbo act as the measuring stick is a more straightforward approach. We know that Gohan is probably relatively close to Goku's strength as it stood in the previous arc, we know that Saganbo possesses some degree of Moro's power, and we know that he's stronger than every character in the supporting cast. Goku defeating him first is less muddied because it presents a more specific picture of how his newfound strength would compare to those who were catching up to him prior to his growth.

No matter how you slice it, this is a tried-and-true narrative technique. Toriyama used it multiple times, and, in my opinion, for good reason. I don't know what giving Gohan/Piccolo another victory would have accomplished other than making their fans happy, but I don't think that should be prioritized over what makes the most sense for the central characters.
Goku predictably elevating himself at the expense of others as they are in the midst of their own battles was an unneeded apex. Past examples of this trope were generally modelled under the condition of Goku hoping to surpass a current benchmark when he was originally the lesser of such an opponent. Saganbo situationally defeated Goku on Namek -- his power enhanced and Goku's continually draining. Goku returning the favour now is a hollow gesture as there's no underlying significance to it. He can overwhelm an enhanced Saganbo in base and responsively counter each upsurge in power as they're being handed out by Moro.

As alluded to before in another post, if the interest for a long term varying of the group dynamics were there, as it was throughout DB and Z with characters and food chains continually shifting, could have served as the prelude for greater developments to come. Hearkening back to uninspired tropes that reassert what we already know serves the interest of no one, even for Goku himself since it was unneeded as Saganbo was merely an artificial blockade for him, one ironically built up by the very character he's about to fight.

If anything, someone like Piccolo taking advantage of his own knowledge of magic and using the Mafuba to neutralise Saganbo would have been thematically harmonious with this arc's attempt at esoteric fighting. Plus, as the motivation for the prisoners is to recapture instead of kill, the Mafuba would have provided the perfect mechanic for just such an intent. What did Saganbo's death accomplish or signify? That Moro is a ruthless monster who isn't concerned about the lives of his men? We were aware of that back on Namek.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:27 am

So I did some digging and found the raw version of the chapter I mentioned earlier (excuse my shitty MS Paint tier circle):

Image

Viz somewhat erroneously translated this line as "a sign of Goku awakening to Ultra Instinct", but the original Japanese text has Whis straight-up calling it [Ultra Instinct "Sign"]. Also note the quotation marks around 兆.

For reference, the full name in Japanese is 身勝手の極意”兆”.

I find that kind of amusing, given that a few western readers have been acting as if Toyotaro suddenly used that name for the incomplete form now when, as a matter of fact, it was called Ultra Instinct "Sign/Omen" since it was first introduced in the manga.

Just an interesting little observation.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:56 am

After giving it a little more thought, I actually realized I've been a bit unfair to the DBS manga when it comes to Piccolo/Gohan dynamic in fighting. I keep saying they're pair-up is overused, because the anime had them attached to the hip, but aside from the TOP they never actually really got to fight side by side. The manga version of the TOP barely spared them a moment, so this technically should be the equivalent of what we got in the anime.
I guess seeing them in action like in this in the chapter mollified me. Still bitter that they didn't win, but at least they were standing when Goku intervened.

Also, good that we're never allowed to forget that 18 is in it for the money.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:14 am

Michsi wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:56 am
After giving it a little more thought, I actually realized I've been a bit unfair to the DBS manga when it comes to Piccolo/Gohan dynamic in fighting. I keep saying they're pair-up is overused, because the anime had them attached to the hip, but aside from the TOP they never actually really got to fight side by side. The manga version of the TOP barely spared them a moment, so this technically should be the equivalent of what we got in the anime.
I guess seeing them in action like in this in the chapter mollified me. Still bitter that they didn't win, but at least they were standing when Goku intervened.

Also, good that we're never allowed to forget that 18 is in it for the money.
Perhaps but I still want to see Goku and Gohan team up properly. Toyo at least gets points for having Gohan be a strategic and interesting fighter.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:39 am

Kagari wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:14 am
Michsi wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:56 am
After giving it a little more thought, I actually realized I've been a bit unfair to the DBS manga when it comes to Piccolo/Gohan dynamic in fighting. I keep saying they're pair-up is overused, because the anime had them attached to the hip, but aside from the TOP they never actually really got to fight side by side. The manga version of the TOP barely spared them a moment, so this technically should be the equivalent of what we got in the anime.
I guess seeing them in action like in this in the chapter mollified me. Still bitter that they didn't win, but at least they were standing when Goku intervened.

Also, good that we're never allowed to forget that 18 is in it for the money.
Perhaps but I still want to see Goku and Gohan team up properly. Toyo at least gets points for having Gohan be a strategic and interesting fighter.
I am biased here, I admit. The Goku and Gohan team up doesn't do anything for me, but I understand why others would want to see it. As long as we don't get any flavor of Vegeta/Goku combo I am okay with it.
If Gohan and Piccolo must end up as a duo for good, I do wish they go with the route in which they are the strategic and cooperative counterpart to Goku and Vegeta's impulsive and reluctant collaboration.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:50 am

Thoughts after this chapter:

Specifically how UI might be able to actually work against Moro.

So Piccolo said he couldn't even sense Goku's energy at all. He cound't lock on. Maybe Moro needs to be able to "lock on" to the power source in order to drain the juice. This would allow Goku to actually fight Moro, but eventually Goku runs out of staminia naturally, and gets saved by Vegeta.

I just dont see how it's good story telling to have Goku show up with Omen form on tap, to just get pooped on.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TysonWine » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:37 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:11 pm
Why Goku taps into the incomplete version of Ultra Instinct after attaining the true version of the technique mystifies me. That's not how Ultra Instinct works in either medium. The only reason the incomplete version of Ultra Instinct existed in the first place was because Goku didn't master the ability. Hell, Goku immediately phased out of Ultra Instinct the first time he attained it was because he found a chance to tap into its power. And the only reason Goku burned out in Ultra Instinct when he attained the true version of it was because hadn't trained enough to wield its power properly. This would be like Goku transforming into the same kind of Super Saiyan we saw on Namek, before revealing his mastered version of the same Super Saiyan transformation shortly after that against Cell. Or Goku using a one handed version of the Genki Dama, before using the version which creates a sphere of Ki as large a moon against Kid Boo. The incomplete version of Ultra Instinct has no reason to make a return other than to turn what was once a unique technique into a ANOTHER standard transformation.

I mean, it was bound to happen, but that doesn't make it any less disappointing. I really got a kick out of how Ultra Instinct was basically a fight-or-flight response ability. I at least hope Ultra Instinct goes down the same route of SSJ3 where Goku can access it, but can't control its full power for extended periods of time. I REALLY hope this doesn't turn into another Super Saiyan 4 scenario, where Goku can just access the full power for as long as he can, and at any time he wants.
Exactly, it was a mistake, therefore UI omen shouldn't really be a thing. This is the equivalent to mastering "False Super Saiyan." Incomplete forms are born out of necessity. They're not something you strive for, especially when you've already gotten a taste of the real thing.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:58 am

ssj3kakarot wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:50 am
Maybe Moro needs to be able to "lock on" to the power source in order to drain the juice.
Does Moro even need to absorb energy anymore? He's been giving it left and right to his henchmen, it feels like he's confident enough in what he already has.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:07 am

I kind of agree it should be completed UI or nothing. Going back to Omen makes no sense. But Omen was preferred by many over UI by the fandom and I suppose Toyo is playing off that.


I’m not really saying it is a good writing decision but the only way it can possibly be explained is if when Goku was training with Merus he discovered something different when he reached Omen vs when he reached UI. Maybe there are benefits to the incomplete form. Or maybe he hasn’t actually mastered UI but only can get to the Omen state at Will.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:46 am

The Undying wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:27 am
So I did some digging and found the raw version of the chapter I mentioned earlier (excuse my shitty MS Paint tier circle):

Image

Viz somewhat erroneously translated this line as "a sign of Goku awakening to Ultra Instinct", but the original Japanese text has Whis straight-up calling it [Ultra Instinct "Sign"]. Also note the quotation marks around 兆.

For reference, the full name in Japanese is 身勝手の極意”兆”.

I find that kind of amusing, given that a few western readers have been acting as if Toyotaro suddenly used that name for the incomplete form now when, as a matter of fact, it was called Ultra Instinct "Sign/Omen" since it was first introduced in the manga.

Just an interesting little observation.
Oh yes! Thanks for providing some facts! Now maybe people will shut up about this and move on.

Also, I do wholeheartedly agree with your take on how it was essential for Goku to show off his new power against Saganbo.
Really, what would be the point in Gohan and Piccolo defeating him? It would have added absolutely nothing to the story, it would have been just fanservice.

Not to mention how Goku coming and beating the best underling/henchmen his friends couldn’t beat is a trope that Toriyama used many times and to great results. I bet the same people complaining about this would also complain about Goku killing Drum (“Tenshinan is useless! He won the tournament!!!”) or Goku beating Nappa (“WTF Gohan should have beaten him”) or the Ginyus.

Like, really, it’s not hard to get that in order to not make Saganbo feel like pure filler it was absolutely needed to show Goku defeating him to show us how superior he is to everyone else now.
Also I find it silly how only now fans are realizing just how stronger than everyone else Goku and Vegeta are.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Gt91 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:26 am

Probably moro has a last trasformation/power up. Goku is worried about it.
I hope to see vegeta's new trasformation/power up soon.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:34 am

Gt91 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:26 am
I hope to see vegeta's new trasformation/power up soon.
Goku's fight will probably last an entire 2 chapters, so we won't get anything from Vegeta till June, maybe even July. I do wish they didn't waste all that time with the others as that's slowed everything down.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:10 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:34 am
Gt91 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:26 am
I hope to see vegeta's new trasformation/power up soon.
Goku's fight will probably last an entire 2 chapters, so we won't get anything from Vegeta till June, maybe even July. I do wish they didn't waste all that time with the others as that's slowed everything down.
I hope not I need my Vegeta fix before then :lol:

I don’t need Vegeta to beat Moro (I still am convinced Merus will be the final key) I just hope all this build up about him is worth it in some way.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:21 pm

emperior wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:46 am

Really, what would be the point in Gohan and Piccolo defeating him? It would have added absolutely nothing to the story, it would have been just fanservice.
Which is fine?! The entire franchise hinges on fanservice, they are not even subtle about this. It would just been satisfying to see, is all. It's not complicated.

You don't need to make it any more clearer that Goku and Vegeta are ahead of everyone by leaps and bounds, giving the defeat to Goku only to show that feels superfluous.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:53 pm

Michsi wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:21 pm
emperior wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:46 am

Really, what would be the point in Gohan and Piccolo defeating him? It would have added absolutely nothing to the story, it would have been just fanservice.
Which is fine?! The entire franchise hinges on fanservice, they are not even subtle about this. It would just been satisfying to see, is all. It's not complicated.

You don't need to make it any more clearer that Goku and Vegeta are ahead of everyone by leaps and bounds, giving the defeat to Goku only to show that feels superfluous.
Let me enjoy when they don’t write stuff only with the intention of pleasing some fans.

In fact due to the overwhelming amount of fanservice Super has, I am actually craving for them to give us 0 fanservice and to actually displease fans with some choices.
By the way Gohan and Piccolo’s teamwork can be considered “fanservice” but it was the good kind of it, the one which actually serves the story and is believable and not blatant.

If Goku had not helped defeating Saganbo and the other prisoners, then all that assault on Earth, in my opinion, would have been a waste of time.
Not that it wasn’t fillerish to some degree, but at least it expanded a bit upon Moro, gave some context and character to Saganbo and gave us a nice showing of Omen and Goku’s training.

And here I gotta give props to Broly’s movie for only including characters which served the story. Toriyama knew it would have been superfluous to have all the Earthlings warriors, Gohan and company to join that battle.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:29 pm

emperior wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:53 pm
Michsi wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:21 pm
emperior wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:46 am

Really, what would be the point in Gohan and Piccolo defeating him? It would have added absolutely nothing to the story, it would have been just fanservice.
Which is fine?! The entire franchise hinges on fanservice, they are not even subtle about this. It would just been satisfying to see, is all. It's not complicated.

You don't need to make it any more clearer that Goku and Vegeta are ahead of everyone by leaps and bounds, giving the defeat to Goku only to show that feels superfluous.
Let me enjoy when they don’t write stuff only with the intention of pleasing some fans.

In fact due to the overwhelming amount of fanservice Super has, I am actually craving for them to give us 0 fanservice and to actually displease fans with some choices.

GT tried that and it didn't go over so well for them.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:46 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:34 am
Gt91 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:26 am
I hope to see vegeta's new trasformation/power up soon.
Goku's fight will probably last an entire 2 chapters, so we won't get anything from Vegeta till June, maybe even July. I do wish they didn't waste all that time with the others as that's slowed everything down.
I'm happy they gave spotlight to the Z-warriors (Dragon Team) before Goku came out of nowhere I just wish they'd team up with Goku and be useful to him

I'm not happy that Goku fought Saganbo (it was Nappa all over again) wish Broly (with Cheelai & Lemo) had shown up and gone up against Saganbo while Goku plans his attack on Moro

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