What do you want with Broly?

[WittyUsername]

Do the Bardock and Trunks specials count as more “adult” Dragon Ball installments?

[Zeon_Grunt]

Do the Bardock and Trunks specials count as more “adult” Dragon Ball installments?

More adult, absolutely, but I wouldn't be confident is saying they were made explicitly for adults due to the different kinds of media they made for kids back then.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Do the Bardock and Trunks specials count as more “adult” Dragon Ball installments?

Depends on where you're asking that question. I think in most of North America watching your mentor die is pretty definitively "more adult" than what's expected of cartoons. NA largely believes stories for children should be whimsical, free of potentially traumatizing content, and conclude with optimistic endings.

Other parts of the world are a lot less strict about what children should be exposed to. I know back in the Dominican Republic (where my parents are from) no one really cares about how much violence is in a kid's show. It's sex that ends up being the disqualifying content. Nudity, sex based jokes, and general ecchi nonsense aren't seen as appropriate for children.

I don't know anything about Japan but looking at popular josei, shonen, seinen, and shojo series there doesn't seem to be any hard and fast rules for age categories past the age of ten. Shojo can have lots of sex, shonen can have lots of violence, seinen usually has lots of both, and josei usually has lots of gorgeous art. So as far as Japan is concerned Trunks and Bardock are still acceptable content for ten year olds.

[MyVisionity]

On the same notion, why should we have to give up on the franchises we love, simply because we grew up? Again, it's not impossible to successfully evolve a brand or franchise from being explicitly the realm of children's entertainment to something that produces content for multiple different demographics. DC and Marvel comics are both testaments to growing up in such a way and it's because they did so, while still producing separate content for all other ages, that they've managed to not only remain relevant for over 50 years, but have relatively recently overtaken pop culture. That never would have happened if we didn't get stories like The Dark Knight Returns or films like The Dark Knight, Logan, or Deadpool.

I agree that it's not impossible for a franchise to branch out from children's media into adult media, but I think you are overstating the significance of anything DC or Marvel ever did to remain relevant or to overtake pop culture. Marvel/DC have remained relevant for as long as they have not because of becoming more adult, but because of taking children-oriented concepts and evolving them over time. The increasingly mainstream popularity of those brands has more to do with Hollywood finally taking advantage of the source material and becoming more competent and skilled at doing so over time. It's not any so-called "adult" content that's responsible for any of it.

There's nothing more adult about the DBZ TV specials. More serious perhaps, but not more adult. Of course, it would be possible to take those concepts and create something for adults. Whether or not it would be worth it is a different matter.

[Zeon_Grunt]

I agree that it's not impossible for a franchise to branch out from children's media into adult media, but I think you are overstating the significance of anything DC or Marvel ever did to remain relevant or to overtake pop culture. Marvel/DC have remained relevant for as long as they have not because of becoming more adult, but because of taking children-oriented concepts and evolving them over time. The increasingly mainstream popularity of those brands has more to do with Hollywood finally taking advantage of the source material and becoming more competent and skilled at doing so over time. It's not any so-called "adult" content that's responsible for any of it.

There's nothing more adult about the DBZ TV specials. More serious perhaps, but not more adult. Of course, it would be possible to take those concepts and create something for adults. Whether or not it would be worth it is a different matter.

It'd be literally impossible for the current state of the comics industry to exist had Marvel and DC not decided to let their writers and artists publish more adult oriented stories in the 80s and 90s. If we were still under the Comics Code, things would be drastically different and superheroes likely never would be taken as seriously as they are today. Tony Stark wouldn't have started as a drunk manwhore to develop into the character he is today, Cap never would have dealt with the issues of government corruption, etc.

There is definitely something inherently more adult about a story set in a post apocalyptic setting where humanity is actively being hunted to extinction and the main character not only lives in the ruins of a burnt out city but has his only friend murdered. There's really nothing inherently less adult about that story than a lot of other stories in films rated R. The only thing that really separates it from them is the explicit gore that tends to come with the rating.

Again, try not to confuse "for adults," with "explicitly vulgar/violent/sexual."

[WittyUsername]

Do the Bardock and Trunks specials count as more “adult” Dragon Ball installments?

Depends on where you're asking that question. I think in most of North America watching your mentor die is pretty definitively "more adult" than what's expected of cartoons. NA largely believes stories for children should be whimsical, free of potentially traumatizing content, and conclude with optimistic endings.

Other parts of the world are a lot less strict about what children should be exposed to. I know back in the Dominican Republic (where my parents are from) no one really cares about how much violence is in a kid's show. It's sex that ends up being the disqualifying content. Nudity, sex based jokes, and general ecchi nonsense aren't seen as appropriate for children.

I don't know anything about Japan but looking at popular josei, shonen, seinen, and shojo series there doesn't seem to be any hard and fast rules for age categories past the age of ten. Shojo can have lots of sex, shonen can have lots of violence, seinen usually has lots of both, and josei usually has lots of gorgeous art. So as far as Japan is concerned Trunks and Bardock are still acceptable content for ten year olds.

Oh, I know those specials weren’t made with adults in mind. They still aired on a children’s time slot on what I assume was a children’s channel. I’m simply saying that they’re probably the most “mature” Dragon Ball has ever been.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Oh, I know those specials weren’t made with adults in mind. They still aired on a children’s time slot on what I assume was a children’s channel. I’m simply saying that they’re probably the most “mature” Dragon Ball has ever been.

Definitely but I think it's worth noting that DB has dipped its toes into "mature" stories pretty frequently. OG Dragon Ball had the teary reunion between Goku and Grandpa Gohan, as well as the tragic scene of Goku holding Krillin's lifeless corpse. Z-era had a few too with Goku's very relatable parental fear when Gohan is kidnapped by Raditz and the Yamcha/Bulma/Vegeta thing (which while not very deep, was very soap opera-y).

Bardock and M. Trunks are easily the best examples tho. And I think TOEI agree with how often they keep bringing those two characters back XD

[MyVisionity]

It'd be literally impossible for the current state of the comics industry to exist had Marvel and DC not decided to let their writers and artists publish more adult oriented stories in the 80s and 90s. If we were still under the Comics Code, things would be drastically different and superheroes likely never would be taken as seriously as they are today. Tony Stark wouldn't have started as a drunk manwhore to develop into the character he is today, Cap never would have dealt with the issues of government corruption, etc.

And yet those specific stories were written in spite of the Comics Code, so obviously things wouldn't be all that different. Comic book characters would still have been taken seriously today because they were being written seriously long before any "adult oriented" stories of the 80s and 90s. The styles evolved over time, which allowed for more mature storytelling, but that's not what drove the popularity of today.

There is definitely something inherently more adult about a story set in a post apocalyptic setting where humanity is actively being hunted to extinction and the main character not only lives in the ruins of a burnt out city but has his only friend murdered.

There is nothing inherently adult about a post-apocalyptic world. That's something easily fit for children's entertainment. Again, more serious or mature does not equal more adult.

Again, try not to confuse "for adults," with "explicitly vulgar/violent/sexual."

I definitely don't confuse those things. Children's media can and does contain dark, serious, and mature elements.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

There is nothing inherently adult about a post-apocalyptic world. That's something easily fit for children's entertainment. Again, more serious or mature does not equal more adult.

Case in point; Adventure Time. Which is also a good example of how black comedy can work in a children's show.

Children's media can and does contain dark, serious, and mature elements.

Like Avatar's Zuko calling out his father for being physically and emotionally abusive.

[Zeon_Grunt]

And yet those specific stories were written in spite of the Comics Code, so obviously things wouldn't be all that different. Comic book characters would still have been taken seriously today because they were being written seriously long before any "adult oriented" stories of the 80s and 90s. The styles evolved over time, which allowed for more mature storytelling, but that's not what drove the popularity of today

Up until the publishers let writers go off the deep end with characters like Hal Jordan and Batman, most comics were written as over the top slapstick humor stories with a the vast bulk of the back catalog (pretty much everything from the Gold and Silver ages) being silly nonsensical stories like the time Superman became gay because of pink kryptonite or the time Wonder Woman had to stop Nazis from raising the price of milk in an attempt to cause kids in the US to have brittle bones or the time Doctor Doom decided to swap bodies with Daredevil in an attempt to get the Fantastic Four, only to realize he turned himself into a helpless blind dude without first informing his own goons that the body swap was going to take place.

There were exceptions in the 70s like the death of Gwen Stacy and Speedy doing... well, speed, but those stories were few and far between and not really the standard until Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns shook the industry.

Again, more serious or mature does not equal more adult.

Then what, by your measure, is the tipping point between something made for kids and teenagers and something made for adults? If it's going to be "graphic and/or vulgar content," I'm going to have to fundamentally disagree. What makes a film like Aliens or The Exorcist any more of an adult's film than, say, 90% of the PG-13 films horror films made in the last 30 years?

[MyVisionity]

Up until the publishers let writers go off the deep end with characters like Hal Jordan and Batman, most comics were written as over the top slapstick humor stories with a the vast bulk of the back catalog (pretty much everything from the Gold and Silver ages) being silly nonsensical stories like the time Superman became gay because of pink kryptonite or the time Wonder Woman had to stop Nazis from raising the price of milk in an attempt to cause kids in the US to have brittle bones or the time Doctor Doom decided to swap bodies with Daredevil in an attempt to get the Fantastic Four, only to realize he turned himself into a helpless blind dude without first informing his own goons that the body swap was going to take place.

There were exceptions in the 70s like the death of Gwen Stacy and Speedy doing... well, speed, but those stories were few and far between and not really the standard until Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns shook the industry.

Most of this is false. Comic books have been written with varying degrees of seriousness since the beginning of the Golden Age. And while there were plenty of nonsensical stories to be found in earlier decades, by the 1960s comic books had become much more serious and mature in storytelling with Marvel leading the way. DC wasn't too far behind in some of its books including Green Lantern and certainly Batman, which by the late sixties had begun to move into a darker and more serious realm. In fact, it was this era of Batman, and not the Frank Miller stories of the eighties, that is truly responsible for the character's enduring relevance in the modern era.

If titles like Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns are responsible for anything, it's generating media attention from outside of the comic book medium, and also for proving that self-contained mini-series and graphic novels that are removed from established characters or continuity could be successful. I don't think they did much to draw in adult readers into the comic book medium.

Then what, by your measure, is the tipping point between something made for kids and teenagers and something made for adults? If it's going to be "graphic and/or vulgar content," I'm going to have to fundamentally disagree. What makes a film like Aliens or The Exorcist any more of an adult's film than, say, 90% of the PG-13 films horror films made in the last 30 years?

Well, a good starting point is not having the central characters be children. Beyond that I'm not sure of any "tipping point". I just know that kids media can be serious and mature and still be kids media, as is the case with certain parts of DB/DBZ.

[SupremeKai25]

Oh, I know those specials weren’t made with adults in mind. They still aired on a children’s time slot on what I assume was a children’s channel. I’m simply saying that they’re probably the most “mature” Dragon Ball has ever been.

Definitely but I think it's worth noting that DB has dipped its toes into "mature" stories pretty frequently. OG Dragon Ball had the teary reunion between Goku and Grandpa Gohan, as well as the tragic scene of Goku holding Krillin's lifeless corpse. Z-era had a few too with Goku's very relatable parental fear when Gohan is kidnapped by Raditz and the Yamcha/Bulma/Vegeta thing (which while not very deep, was very soap opera-y).

Bardock and M. Trunks are easily the best examples tho. And I think TOEI agree with how often they keep bringing those two characters back XD

Don't forget about Super. People sleep on it because of its more cheerful tone and timeframe, but that show literally had child murder and multiversal genocide on screen.

[dbs fanboy]

I just want him to make up with Baa, damn it

[ABED]

Death isn't an issue specifically for adults. Death touches all of us at some point and it doesn't discriminate even with age. In fact death should be an issue children's media doesn't shy away from.

[ABED]

I don't see that to be the case. If the audience grows up, why should the franchise grow into something else? Why shouldn't they just find other stories that are aimed at older audiences?

Pokemon isn't a story. It's a world. It's a premise. It's all about the video games. The series is simply a promotional tool. What potential?

If it's a kids show, it should stay a kids' show. I only think we need to reevaluate what is appropriate for kids. They can tell mature stories but they don't have to be for adults. I'm drawing a distinction between mature and adult. For instance, I can tell a dirty joke that's for adults, but it doesn't make it mature.

Pretty much everyone who has reviewed it, as well as everyone I've talked to or seen discuss it love the show.

You're talking to the one guy who doesn't like it. It's one step above TFS.

On the same notion, why should we have to give up on the franchises we love, simply because we grew up? Again, it's not impossible to successfully evolve a brand or franchise from being explicitly the realm of children's entertainment to something that produces content for multiple different demographics. DC and Marvel comics are both testaments to growing up in such a way and it's because they did so, while still producing separate content for all other ages, that they've managed to not only remain relevant for over 50 years, but have relatively recently overtaken pop culture. That never would have happened if we didn't get stories like The Dark Knight Returns or films like The Dark Knight, Logan, or Deadpool.

Exactly, and it's because Pokemon is a premise that it has as much potential to explore as many different themes or stories as the franchise is comfortable exploring. The anime doesn't have to be just a promotional device, and distancing it from that idea would only do the franchise good in terms of longevity and lifelong fan retention.

Also, you're confusing the desire for a story to be made with adults viewers in mind with wanting the franchise to become something like Family Guy or Berserk. A story doesn't have to be super vulgar or graphic (sexually or violently) to be made for adults. It just has to tell stories that adults would relate to more than the kids would. A story about a washed up, aged Gym leader trying to deal with life after glory is an excellent premise for a Pokemon story that adults would enjoy, but kids likely wouldn't.

Neat, you can not like it all you want, but that doesn't make it "impossible" for it to be good. Your opinion on the quality of any show is not an objective fact. Just because you personally don't enjoy it, doesn't mean it's a bad show and that the millions who loved it are wrong.

First, DC and marvel aren't franchises, they're companies that produces a bunch of different title for a wide range of ages. This isn't up for debate. You are objectively wrong on that issue. You aren't comparing apples and oranges. DC making films like Shazam! and Joker is not the same thing as Pokemon making stories about

DC and Marvel are also testament that "growing up" with their audience backfired. The comic book bubble burst in the 90s and has limped on ever since. Marvel nearly filed for bankruptcy and only got out of that hole by selling film rights. A big reason why comics are now loss leaders is because they "grew up with their audience" and stopped investing in getting new younger readers.

Pokemon is just fine. It has no problem retaining and making new fans.

The biggest influence Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen had on the medium is draw a bunch of hacky imitators who fueled the comic book bubble in the 80s and 90s with their dark and gritty takes on superheroes. It's pretty much the kind of thing that lead to the wrestling boom and bust and I would be willing to bet are the same type that love Broly. It's mostly a bunch of grimdark BS.

It shouldn't have to be said that stories aimed at kids don't have ANY problem finding adult audiences. Superhero movies are testaments to that and as are things like Bronies. We aren't owed franchises growing up with us. It's healthy to either let go or keep things in context. It's perfectly fine to like stuff aimed at children, as long as it's not the only thing

[MasenkoHA]

And yet those specific stories were written in spite of the Comics Code, so obviously things wouldn't be all that different. Comic book characters would still have been taken seriously today because they were being written seriously long before any "adult oriented" stories of the 80s and 90s. The styles evolved over time, which allowed for more mature storytelling, but that's not what drove the popularity of today

Up until the publishers let writers go off the deep end with characters like Hal Jordan and Batman, most comics were written as over the top slapstick humor stories with a the vast bulk of the back catalog (pretty much everything from the Gold and Silver ages) being silly nonsensical stories like the time Superman became gay because of pink kryptonite or the time Wonder Woman had to stop Nazis from raising the price of milk in an attempt to cause kids in the US to have brittle bones or the time Doctor Doom decided to swap bodies with Daredevil in an attempt to get the Fantastic Four, only to realize he turned himself into a helpless blind dude without first informing his own goons that the body swap was going to take place.

They really weren't. They were written with cheesy sci-fi ish action to appeal to young kids of the time but they weren't "over the top slapstick humor stories" I'm not sure if you know what the term means.

Slapstick would be stuff like Three Stooges, Looney Tunes, etc

Also the Pink Kryptonite was introduced in 2003...so there's that.

[Zeon_Grunt]

First, DC and marvel aren't franchises, they're companies that produces a bunch of different title for a wide range of ages. This isn't up for debate. You are objectively wrong on that issue. You aren't comparing apples and oranges. DC making films like Shazam! and Joker is not the same thing as Pokemon making stories about

DC and Marvel are also testament that "growing up" with their audience backfired. The comic book bubble burst in the 90s and has limped on ever since. Marvel nearly filed for bankruptcy and only got out of that hole by selling film rights. A big reason why comics are now loss leaders is because they "grew up with their audience" and stopped investing in getting new younger readers.

Pokemon is just fine. It has no problem retaining and making new fans.

It shouldn't have to be said that stories aimed at kids don't have ANY problem finding adult audiences. Superhero movies are testaments to that and as are things like Bronies. We aren't owed franchises growing up with us. It's healthy to either let go or keep things in context. It's perfectly fine to like stuff aimed at children, as long as it's not the only thing

DC and Marvel are just as much a brand and franchise as Disney or Dragon Ball. Moving on from being "just for kids" to producing different types of content for the whole spectrum of age ranges is exactly what I'm talking about.

The comic bubble burst in the '90s had nothing to do with the stories growing up and fans bucking back against it, and entirely to do with them becoming a speculative market like Beanie Babies were around the same time and mismanagement from the publishers. https://comicbooked.com/revisiting-90s- ... -industry/

Pokemon as a franchise and brand don't have much of a problem making new fans out of young children but it's definitely stagnating for the older audiences and starting to push them out with stupid decisions like cutting a huge portion of the Gen 1-3 Pokemon from newer games. That said, I'm specifically talking about the anime department of the brand and the anime itself absolutely does have trouble making and retaining fans. Ratings have been tanking since 2018 at the latest. You keep acting like Pokemon is just the games and that's the only aspect of the franchise that matters, but it's not.

You say "owed," like anyone is making demands or some shit. There's a huge difference between expressing interest in a brand or franchise growing to be more inclusive than it's initial target audience and saying "Hey, you better do this, or I'm gonna be upset!"

They really weren't. They were written with cheesy sci-fi ish action to appeal to young kids of the time but they weren't "over the top slapstick humor stories" I'm not sure if you know what the term means.

Slapstick would be stuff like Three Stooges, Looney Tunes, etc

Also the Pink Kryptonite was introduced in 2003...so there's that.

That's fair, I meant more of the tone and seriousness of over the top slapstick humor. Almost nothing was remotely serious and it was almost always some off the walls, bonkers shit. You could very much see many of the storylines they used in those older comics to do an episode of Looney Tunes.

My apologies about the misinformation about pink kryptonite. Never really followed anything remotely related to Supergirl outside her appearances in big crossovers and the New 52 run. I'd only heard of that storyline and didn't double check the release.

[ABED]

Disney isn't a franchise. Dragon Ball is. Disney has a bunch of different franchises, but it's not one in and of itself.

he comic bubble burst in the '90s had nothing to do with the stories growing up and fans bucking back against it, and entirely to do with them becoming a speculative market like Beanie Babies were around the same time and mismanagement from the publishers.

It was a number of different factors. I didn't feel like writing out the definitive causes of it, but it definitely did burst in part because people realized the grimdark stuff sucked and the next generation of fans weren't coming along to fill the void. The stories sucked and people finally woke up to that fact. I don't need it explained to me, I was there.

You say "owed," like anyone is making demands or some shit.

Oh if only they weren't. Remember that dumb kerfuffle over the redisign of the new Thundercats series? I swear to god, I kept seeing a bunch of people claim how much more mature the old show was, and damned this one as being for kids. The same thing happened when Teen Titans became Teen Titans Go!

You keep acting like Pokemon is just the games and that's the only aspect of the franchise that matters, but it's not.

It's the one that matters, it's the one that drives the bring, and is the most lucrative. The anime was a promotional tool because people like stories, but the stories are still of secondary concern to where the real money is. So the anime is stagnating since 2018? That's a two decade long run, and nothing to sneeze at. Nothing gold can stay.

Anyway, I don't expect or want a BoJack Horseman surprising level of depth to Broly's story. It's a different type of story. What more is there to say on the issue? Maybe if it were a character I gave a damn about, it would be different, but I don't.

[WittyUsername]

I don't see that to be the case. If the audience grows up, why should the franchise grow into something else? Why shouldn't they just find other stories that are aimed at older audiences?

Pokemon isn't a story. It's a world. It's a premise. It's all about the video games. The series is simply a promotional tool. What potential?

If it's a kids show, it should stay a kids' show. I only think we need to reevaluate what is appropriate for kids. They can tell mature stories but they don't have to be for adults. I'm drawing a distinction between mature and adult. For instance, I can tell a dirty joke that's for adults, but it doesn't make it mature.


You're talking to the one guy who doesn't like it. It's one step above TFS.

On the same notion, why should we have to give up on the franchises we love, simply because we grew up? Again, it's not impossible to successfully evolve a brand or franchise from being explicitly the realm of children's entertainment to something that produces content for multiple different demographics. DC and Marvel comics are both testaments to growing up in such a way and it's because they did so, while still producing separate content for all other ages, that they've managed to not only remain relevant for over 50 years, but have relatively recently overtaken pop culture. That never would have happened if we didn't get stories like The Dark Knight Returns or films like The Dark Knight, Logan, or Deadpool.

Exactly, and it's because Pokemon is a premise that it has as much potential to explore as many different themes or stories as the franchise is comfortable exploring. The anime doesn't have to be just a promotional device, and distancing it from that idea would only do the franchise good in terms of longevity and lifelong fan retention.

Also, you're confusing the desire for a story to be made with adults viewers in mind with wanting the franchise to become something like Family Guy or Berserk. A story doesn't have to be super vulgar or graphic (sexually or violently) to be made for adults. It just has to tell stories that adults would relate to more than the kids would. A story about a washed up, aged Gym leader trying to deal with life after glory is an excellent premise for a Pokemon story that adults would enjoy, but kids likely wouldn't.

Neat, you can not like it all you want, but that doesn't make it "impossible" for it to be good. Your opinion on the quality of any show is not an objective fact. Just because you personally don't enjoy it, doesn't mean it's a bad show and that the millions who loved it are wrong.

First, DC and marvel aren't franchises, they're companies that produces a bunch of different title for a wide range of ages. This isn't up for debate. You are objectively wrong on that issue. You aren't comparing apples and oranges. DC making films like Shazam! and Joker is not the same thing as Pokemon making stories about

DC and Marvel are also testament that "growing up" with their audience backfired. The comic book bubble burst in the 90s and has limped on ever since. Marvel nearly filed for bankruptcy and only got out of that hole by selling film rights. A big reason why comics are now loss leaders is because they "grew up with their audience" and stopped investing in getting new younger readers.

Pokemon is just fine. It has no problem retaining and making new fans.

The biggest influence Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen had on the medium is draw a bunch of hacky imitators who fueled the comic book bubble in the 80s and 90s with their dark and gritty takes on superheroes. It's pretty much the kind of thing that lead to the wrestling boom and bust and I would be willing to bet are the same type that love Broly. It's mostly a bunch of grimdark BS.

It shouldn't have to be said that stories aimed at kids don't have ANY problem finding adult audiences. Superhero movies are testaments to that and as are things like Bronies. We aren't owed franchises growing up with us. It's healthy to either let go or keep things in context. It's perfectly fine to like stuff aimed at children, as long as it's not the only thing

It doesn’t strike me as particularly fair to blame something like Watchmen for the direction comic books ended up taking. If anything, The Killing Joke deserves more of the blame for that, which is a sentiment that Alan Moore himself probably shares.

[MyVisionity]

It doesn’t strike me as particularly fair to blame something like Watchmen for the direction comic books ended up taking. If anything, The Killing Joke deserves more of the blame for that, which is a sentiment that Alan Moore himself probably shares.

What direction did The Killing Joke take comics into? It doesn't really fit into the "dark and gritty" mold of the 90s books. I don't even think it was supposed to be in-continuity originally. Watchmen and Dark Knight were far more popular releases and naturally would have had a greater effect on the comic book industry.