Endings

[Zeon_Grunt]

Besides, the more stories they cram into that 10 year time gap, the less meaningful that epilogue becomes.

Even before that, altering the context of it lessens the meaningfulness of it as well.

The previous way it played out, Vegeta hadn't been a legitimate rival for Goku since the former got out of the Time Chamber the Android saga to the point where Vegeta acknowledged this and stepped down from challenging Goku's status as #1 in the Boo arc. Oob having the potential to rival Boo's strength was exciting for Goku because it'd been 10 years since he had an exciting fight and he was getting bored. He was basically Saitama from One Punch Man and was desperate for a challenge or to feel something close to adrenaline in a fight. Oob showing up with the power of Kid Boo gives him just that, which is why he takes off to train him.

Adding in a ton of new, significantly stronger forms and enemies that would eradicate Kid Boo with a single finger blast changes the context and lessens the importance of that ending.

DB was never meant to be a forever on-going cash machine.

Correct, but that's still the direction Toriyama and Toei decided to take it after they decided to revive it with BoG and Super. If it has any chance at actually succeeding at that, it does have to grow beyond exclusively being about Goku.

[Robo4900]

Besides, the more stories they cram into that 10 year time gap, the less meaningful that epilogue becomes.

Even before that, altering the context of it lessens the meaningfulness of it as well.

The previous way it played out, Vegeta hadn't been a legitimate rival for Goku since the former got out of the Time Chamber the Android saga to the point where Vegeta acknowledged this and stepped down from challenging Goku's status as #1 in the Boo arc. Oob having the potential to rival Boo's strength was exciting for Goku because it'd been 10 years since he had an exciting fight and he was getting bored. He was basically Saitama from One Punch Man and was desperate for a challenge or to feel something close to adrenaline in a fight. Oob showing up with the power of Kid Boo gives him just that, which is why he takes off to train him.

Adding in a ton of new, significantly stronger forms and enemies that would eradicate Kid Boo with a single finger blast changes the context and lessens the importance of that ending.

Also completely ruins Vegeta's character.
He's still obsessed with surpassing Goku in Super, despite his literal entire character arc in the Boo storyline being him getting his head out of his ass in regards to that.

DB was never meant to be a forever on-going cash machine.

Correct, but that's still the direction Toriyama and Toei decided to take it after they decided to revive it with BoG and Super. If it has any chance at actually succeeding at that, it does have to grow beyond exclusively being about Goku.

Yep.

[Matches Malone]

Correct, but that's still the direction Toriyama and Toei decided to take it after they decided to revive it with BoG and Super.

BOG was written as a one time story. Toriyama went as far as to say he had no idea about the franchise's future during interviews leading up to it. According to a producer, the decision to make more stories was made after BOG finished its theatrical run, which explains why so many ideas were backtracked in RF and after.

Agreed. Though I'd honestly throw BOG in there too.

I might exclude Broly from it, though. If only because the characterization in that movie was really good.

What I like about BOG is that it was a breath of fresh air. Beerus and Whis were very fun characters, Goku and Vegeta were allowed to develop a bit more, we got fun moments with the other characters, and I like the bright and fun atmosphere of the movie. It wasn't perfect though, as I think the Pilaf gang just slowed everything down, but overall, it was that one last story I always wanted from Toriyama.

Broly is by no means a bad movie, but was it different enough from the original ? Was the original so bad that it needed a remake ? Keep Cheelai and Lemo, but replace Broly and his father with original characters with the same characterization. They could've introduced someone who, along with his son, barely escaped a Saiyan attack back in the day and was stranded on planet Vampa for 40 years.

[WittyUsername]

Besides, the more stories they cram into that 10 year time gap, the less meaningful that epilogue becomes.

Even before that, altering the context of it lessens the meaningfulness of it as well.

The previous way it played out, Vegeta hadn't been a legitimate rival for Goku since the former got out of the Time Chamber the Android saga to the point where Vegeta acknowledged this and stepped down from challenging Goku's status as #1 in the Boo arc. Oob having the potential to rival Boo's strength was exciting for Goku because it'd been 10 years since he had an exciting fight and he was getting bored. He was basically Saitama from One Punch Man and was desperate for a challenge or to feel something close to adrenaline in a fight. Oob showing up with the power of Kid Boo gives him just that, which is why he takes off to train him.

Adding in a ton of new, significantly stronger forms and enemies that would eradicate Kid Boo with a single finger blast changes the context and lessens the importance of that ending.

Also completely ruins Vegeta's character.
He's still obsessed with surpassing Goku in Super, despite his literal entire character arc in the Boo storyline being him getting his head out of his ass in regards to that.

To be fair, he was also kind of like that in GT. Plus, even though Vegeta is still interested in being better than Goku, his rivalry with him is much friendlier at this point, which would still qualify as growth on his part. I don’t particularly care for the idea of playing up Goku and Vegeta as consistent equals who constantly compete to see who’s stronger, but but at least Vegeta doesn’t hate Goku anymore.

[WittyUsername]

What I like about BOG is that it was a breath of fresh air. Beerus and Whis were very fun characters, Goku and Vegeta were allowed to develop a bit more, we got fun moments with the other characters, and I like the bright and fun atmosphere of the movie. It wasn't perfect though, as I think the Pilaf gang just slowed everything down, but overall, it was that one last story I always wanted from Toriyama.

Broly is by no means a bad movie, but was it different enough from the original ? Was the original so bad that it needed a remake ? Keep Cheelai and Lemo, but replace Broly and his father with original characters with the same characterization. They could've introduced someone who, along with his son, barely escaped a Saiyan attack back in the day and was stranded on planet Vampa for 40 years.

If the argument in favor of rebooting Broly is that the original movie was so bad that they needed to make up for it, then they might have picked the wrong movie for that.

[Zeon_Grunt]

BOG was written as a one time story. Toriyama went as far as to say he had no idea about the franchise's future during interviews leading up to it. According to a producer, the decision to make more stories was made after BOG finished its theatrical run, which explains why so many ideas were backtracked in RF and after.

I stand corrected about the intention behind BoG, but once it became clear that Toei was setting up the Dragon Ball Room and Toriyama was grooming Toyotaro to take over and continue the manga, it became more than evident that "perpetual money machine "is exactly what they're trying to turn DB into.

[Melee_Sovereign]

What if the series ended and rebooted?

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I'm in a weird position. Most of my favorite pieces of media have had numerous spin offs/reinterpretations and that each has had volumes written about why each iteration succeeded/failed. So, for me the big question surrounding endings isn't "should this end" (I've long stopped expecting endings to things unless they're explicitly marketed as stand alone stories) it's "what new things do you bring to the table." I don't even mind a new story taking place before a show's canonical ending. After all, Gundan managed that rough idea pretty well with War in the Pocket. So sequels and spin offs are doable.

At least as long as you accept that your new show will be a new show and not have a whole lot in common with the original. (And it likely won't do anywhere near as well financially but that's a seperate issue.) G Gundam looks nothing like Zeta Gundam and Star Trek:DS9 looks nothing like Star Trek:TOS. As backwards as it might seem, to create a successful follow up, the first thing you need to do is dinstinguish your new work from the original.

And I think that's why GT still has defenders. It had its own look and feel which made it possible to forgive the subpar story telling. I also think it's why GT was able to produce something as good as Hero's Legacy (which, imo, is better than the Super movies by a wide margin. Definitely better than the copy+paste Z-era films). Super, on the other hand, while having lots of fun moments only has fun moments. Sure Zamasu and Hit feel like a breath of fresh air and the mentor/protegee relationship Vegeta starts to develop with Cabba was nice but they're lone bright spots in an ocean of mediorce to bad storytelling¹.

_{1) Dragon Ball has had good story telling. It may not have been "deep" but they were very cohesive and engaging narratives. 22nd Budokai and Saiyan Invasion are still some of my go tos when I want to get otherwise skeptical people into anime.}

I've said this since the beginning, though -- in 10-20 years' time, people will look back on Super like they look back on Sword Art Online now; everyone will facepalm, shake their heads, and roll their eyes at how anyone thought this shit was even remotely good when it is entirely artistically bankrupt outside of some flashy-looking fight scenes.

And I will once again get to feel like a smug prick for hating it before anyone else did!

Not even joking. The argument's long since dead but I still hate Kirito like nothing else. He is everything wrong with fantasy/scifi protags. It's like the only lesson creators took from Devilman, Guts, and Shinji is that male leads need to be douchebags who can't have functioning relationships with women.

[MasenkoHA]

What if the series ended and rebooted?

I don’t see a point in a reboot. The Dragon Ball and Z anime was already faithful the manga for the most part excluding the filler. What would a do-over accomplish? We got a quasi-reboot for Z in Kai and most people didn’t like it. People might have liked Kai better if it was re-animated from the ground up instead of remastering of the old footage but I can’t imagine they would have liked it much better.

Reboots are rarely necessary or worthwhile.

[Zeon_Grunt]

What if the series ended and rebooted?

That could work pretty well. Imagine a more grounded or mature take on the Dragon Ball universe that didn't just throw logic and sensible progression to the wind during fights. Imagine how much better the series could be if, from the start, the power scale and narrative was charted out and planned ahead of time so we could get more natural growth in the characters' abilities so they don't just go from "we can blow up mountains now," to "we're blowing up planets now" in the next arc.

We got a quasi-reboot for Z in Kai and most people didn’t like it.

Kai mostly failed because, as you mentioned, it was just recut and remastering of the old footage to varying degrees of quality while replacing some of the voices of fan favorite characters that fans have known and loved for decades with voices that (outside Freeza's) are generally considered worse.

That said, any attempt at re-imagining or reboot has just as much chance at success as any other. It's all a matter of how good the writing is and whether the new work has anything interesting to say or do with the original work. Dragon Ball could totally go the way of comics in that the manga is one version of the story while the cartoons and movies are different versions that have different tones and merits to them.

[Matches Malone]

What if the series ended and rebooted ?

The problem is that a reboot will just cover the same plot points, with the only difference being the road taken to get there.

Dragon Ball could totally go the way of comics in that the manga is one version of the story while the cartoons and movies are different versions that have different tones and merits to them.

If they're going to waste their time retelling the same story, why not find different manga to adapt and bring to the public's attention ? Instead of going on forever (continuations to the original manga or reboots), why not leave DB as is and move on to something else ?

[WittyUsername]

I think there are two major factors that ultimately worked against Kai. One is that it came out at a point when the franchise was still in a dry period, and the story of DBZ had already been retold ad naueseum. The second factor, as has already been established, is that it was literally just the old anime, but cut down in order to get rid of the filler. If it had been a full-on reanimated version of the story, it might’ve gone over better, especially since it would’ve given them fewer restrictions.

With that being said, I’m not entirely appalled by Toei’s decision to take the lazy route. As I mentioned, Dragon Ball was in a rut at that point, so it would’ve been a risky venture to produce an entirely new anime that tells the same story that people already know.

Frankly, the only thing Kai has going for it is that the English dub is much better than the one for Z. If it hadn’t been for that, it probably would’ve faded into complete obscurity by now.

Anyway, yeah, I don’t think there’d be any real point in rebooting the franchise.

[Zeon_Grunt]

If they're going to waste their time retelling the same story, why not find different manga to adapt and bring to the public's attention ? Instead of going on forever (continuations to the original manga or reboots), why not leave DB as is and move on to something else ?

You're confusing "reboot," and "remake," which are two different concepts and methods of reviving an old work.

But a reboot doesn't necessarily have to tell the exact same story as the original. You can take the concepts and personalities from a story and rework it to make it something new and fresh so long as you put legitimate thought and care into it.

As to why not just leave it behind, because DB is a franchise first and a story second. If you can do something to keep a money maker thriving indefinitely, from a business standpoint, why wouldn't you? That aside, we're in a day and age when a lot of entertainment fans want ongoing franchises rather than just one-off stories. That's why the MCU is dominating the cinematic landscape while one-off films tend to suffer and get forgotten about.

[Matches Malone]

If you can do something to keep a money maker thriving indefinitely, from a business standpoint, why wouldn't you?

The same reason why Toriyama himself ended the manga back in the day, artistic integrity. In a 2014 interview, Toriyama said he ended DB because he didn't think Goku could logically get any stronger. He was making a truck load of $$$, but decided to put the story ahead of that. You could say he was tired of drawing, which was probably part of it, but he could've easily gotten someone else to handle the art if that's all it was.

The best example of someone who puts art ahead of profit is Chris Nolan, as he could've made Batman movies every 4-5 years for the rest of his life, but instead decided to stop after 3 and pursue other ideas. Another Batman example is Scott Snyder, he could've written Batman comics for the rest of his life, and despite still having stories to tell, he decided to end things after a 10 year run on a high note.

There are countless other examples of people and companies who put art ahead of profit, and still end up making money, hitting 2 birds with one stone.

I think there are two major factors that ultimately worked against Kai. One is that it came out at a point when the franchise was still in a dry period, and the story of DBZ had already been retold ad naueseum. The second factor, as has already been established, is that it was literally just the old anime, but cut down in order to get rid of the filler.

The only thing Kai has going for it is that the English dub is much better than the one for Z.

Another thing going against kai was the fact that Z was released in DBox form in 2003, then in single sets from 2005 to 2007. It's understandable why Japanese fans wouldn't be jumping up and down for something they just bought a year or so before. With that said, it did do good with ratings.

Cutting out 120+ episodes is also a massive plus.

[Zeon_Grunt]

The same reason why Toriyama himself ended the manga back in the day, artistic integrity.

That's one reason, but it's important to understand that a company owned and controlled franchise isn't the same thing as a single story told by a single author. Dragon Ball may have started as the latter, but it's in the process of transitioning completely into the former. The company itself has no interest in or need to exhibit "artistic integrity," to any extent if it means making less money in the long run.

[Matches Malone]

The company itself has no interest in or need to exhibit "artistic integrity," to any extent if it means making less money in the long run.

As unfortunate as this is, you're right. I do however think Toriyama could be doing more to push the franchise in new directions instead of what we've been getting post BOG. For example, when Toyotaro asked him to write Vegetto into the Black arc because fans would like that, he could've declined and instead told him they'd only use him or anyone else if the story demanded it. He could also push to have things progress like in the manga, where characters grew up and changed over time.

[Zeon_Grunt]

As unfortunate as this is, you're right. I do however think Toriyama could be doing more to push the franchise in new directions instead of what we've been getting post BOG. For example, when Toyotaro asked him to write Vegetto into the Black arc because fans would like that, he could've declined and instead told him they'd only use him or anyone else if the story demanded it. He could also push to have things progress like in the manga, where characters grew up and changed over time.

No doubt Toriyama could do something to push the series in new ways, but I personally think that he's at the age and point in his life where he just wants to retire and have his life's works continue bringing in money to support his and his family's lives.

If Toriyama came out and said that wanting to make DB financially relevant again was a major motivating factor in his decision to revive it with Super, I honestly wouldn't be surprised or blame him one bit. I'd imagine he'd rather go out the way of Tolkien rather than Bella Lugosi, hailed as one of the greatest literary geniuses and world builders of all time rather than a washed up has-been that didn't get the recognition he deserved until well after his death.

[Majin Buu]

To be fair, he was also kind of like that in GT. Plus, even though Vegeta is still interested in being better than Goku, his rivalry with him is much friendlier at this point, which would still qualify as growth on his part.

I believe he says something to the effect of "I'm done chasing after you Kakkarot, now I just want to see how strong I can get on my own terms" in his spotlight episode. I don't think he considers himself in a rivalry with Goku anymore in GT based on that.

[ABED]

Correct, but that's still the direction Toriyama and Toei decided to take it after they decided to revive it with BoG and Super. If it has any chance at actually succeeding at that, it does have to grow beyond exclusively being about Goku.

You keep saying this but we have proof that it is doing just that even though the story remains about Goku. DB isn't losing steam..

[Zeon_Grunt]

You keep saying this but we have proof that it is doing just that even though the story remains about Goku. DB isn't losing steam..

We have proof in the way of history of both this series and other series. Outside shows for educational programs for toddlers, those that don't let themselves grow or expand do not remain relevant forever. DB is doing fine right now, but the cracks and waning popularity with legacy fans started to show long before Super ended. Just because a lot of people were hyped for Ultra Instinct and the Broly movie, doesn't mean the show is doing as good as it can or should be.

GT itself proves that sticking too close to revolving solely around Goku and letting the quality of the writing decline can and will drive fans away.