Endings

[Robo4900]

To be fair, he was also kind of like that in GT. Plus, even though Vegeta is still interested in being better than Goku, his rivalry with him is much friendlier at this point, which would still qualify as growth on his part.

I believe he says something to the effect of "I'm done chasing after you Kakkarot, now I just want to see how strong I can get on my own terms" in his spotlight episode. I don't think he considers himself in a rivalry with Goku anymore in GT based on that.

Exactly my point.

He's even the one who suggests the fusion to Goku when they're fighting Yi Xing Long. Back in the Boo arc, he staunchly resisted this and had to have some convincing from Goku before he finally swallowed his pride and went with it, begrudgingly.
In GT, he's clearly a far more mature man who's much more accepting of, and happy with, his situation in life.
We even see him enjoying a domestic life, going shopping with his daughter. And we get the delightful gags revolving around his moustache, and the shaving thereof.

He's not abandoned his training -- far from it, he's overjoyed by Bulma's promises to help him achieve Super Saiyan 4 -- but he's not obsessed with surpassing Goku, and he's settled into his family life.
Unlike Vegeta in Super, this actually feels like the same man we saw in the Z epilogue, and who had the "You are #1, Goku" speech in the fight with Kid Boo.

And, rather than trot him out for no good reason like Super seems obsessed with doing, GT put him aside and let him live his peaceful life in the background.
Naturally, the way Toriyama and Toei write Super, Vegeta is involved, but unless you're devoted to a Thermian argument about this, you'll find there's no justifiable reason why Vegeta couldn't have been written to not be involved. Hell, he initially refused to take part in the Tournament Of Power, because Bulma was due to give birth to their daughter imminently.

[ABED]

Everything waxes and wanes in popularity. No way to keep thing infinitely at the top. While every Bond film has been successful to some degree, the films have peaks and valleys in popularity. There's no way to know how good or how popular the show can be. It's all a crap shoot. They could take wild swings and do your ideas and maybe they would succeed or they would be a resounding failure.

GT itself proves that sticking too close to revolving solely around Goku and letting the quality of the writing decline can and will drive fans away.

GT proves that having crappy fights and derivative stories after a 10 year consistent run will turn away audiences.

The world is a very different place than it was when the manga was still going. Is it past its peak, is it more popular? Who knows? Why would anyone care? I have no vested interest in DB continuing and I'm more than happy to see it end. DB has tread so much ground and we got the right ending. Goku will forever trying to get stronger. There's nothing more to say on that subject. I like the ending with Uub, not because he's going to pass the torch. It's not about that. It's about Goku being happy there are more mountains to climb. It's like life. There's no grand end to all of this. No finish line other than the grave. All the loose threads are tied up by the end of Z, but we just get hints of where Goku is heading. That's fine. Given where he's been we know where he'll go. We just don't need to see it.

And, rather than trot him out for no good reason like Super seems obsessed with doing, GT put him aside and let him live his peaceful life in the background.

I disagree with this assessment. Super isn't backtracking his development. He's still competitive, he's just not insecure about it. The idea that Vegeta's epiphany would get rid of his competitiveness is silly. That's not who Vegeta was at the end of Z. I prefer that to him giving up. Instead of Goku being stronger wounding him to his core, it gives him a goal to aspire to.

[Robo4900]

GT proves that having crappy fights

There's more to a story than fights, and I've always hated that this is one of the main valid criticisms with GT...

But you're absolutely right. GT's fights are not very good, and that's a real turn-off for a lot of fans.

and derivative stories

I've never bought this one.

after a 10 year consistent run

Once again, yes. Above all, this is what turned the Japanese audience away from GT. It was a pretty okay show with some poor fights and a lot of shitty episodes in its early run, and... People just didn't care. Why should they? Dragon Ball had more than run its course by then. Whatever one may think of GT, doing it straight after Z concluded was not a great idea, really, if they wanted it to run longer than just 64 episodes.

The world is a very different place than it was when the manga was still going. Is it past its peak, is it more popular? Who knows? Why would anyone care? I have no vested interest in DB continuing and I'm more than happy to see it end. DB has tread so much ground and we got the right ending. Goku will forever trying to get stronger. There's nothing more to say on that subject. I like the ending with Uub, not because he's going to pass the torch. It's not about that. It's about Goku being happy there are more mountains to climb. It's like life. There's no grand end to all of this. No finish line other than the grave. All the loose threads are tied up by the end of Z, but we just get hints of where Goku is heading. That's fine. Given where he's been we know where he'll go. We just don't need to see it.

Fair enough.

Personally, I never found the original ending as satisfying as GT's, but I understand why the original ending was how it was, and in a lot of ways, I think it is a pretty great way for Toriyama to have ended the manga.

And, rather than trot him out for no good reason like Super seems obsessed with doing, GT put him aside and let him live his peaceful life in the background.

I disagree with this assessment. Super isn't backtracking his development. He's still competitive, he's just not insecure about it. The idea that Vegeta's epiphany would get rid of his competitiveness is silly. That's not who Vegeta was at the end of Z.

My read was always that Vegeta gave up on his ridiculous crusade to be stronger than Goku in the Boo arc, after that obsession took him to crazy places; he accepted that Goku is better, and -- as in GT -- worked to instead just get stronger in his own time, to find his own limits.

He's not given up getting stronger, he's just given up on the insurmountable task of beating Goku, the thing that had always driven him utterly crazy the entire time he'd been in the story.

Maybe it's my fault for interpreting it like that (and it's been a long-ass time since I saw the last few episodes of Z, so I can't remember if this was in the text or just something I read into it, and the fact I grew up with GT as being my "canonical" follow-up to the original story probably doesn't help), but I always hated that Super pedalled that back to just "You are better than me at this moment but I'm still going to try to be stronger but not quite as obsessively as before." I always saw it as "You are better than me. You always have been. You're my better, Kakarot. You're #1. Now beat this son of a bitch so we can all go home."
BOG outright ends with him saying something to the effect of "I will be stronger than you, Kakarot." Which just had me rolling my eyes when I saw that.

[ABED]

GT proves that having crappy fights

There's more to a story than fights, and I've always hated that this is one of the main valid criticisms with GT...

But you're absolutely right. GT's fights are not very good, and that's a real turn-off for a lot of fans.

and derivative stories

I've never bought this one.

after a 10 year consistent run

Once again, yes. Above all, this is what turned the Japanese audience away from GT. It was a pretty okay show with some poor fights and a lot of shitty episodes in its early run, and... People just didn't care. Why should they? Dragon Ball had more than run its course by then. Whatever one may think of GT, doing it straight after Z concluded was not a great idea, really, if they wanted it to run longer than just 64 episodes.

The world is a very different place than it was when the manga was still going. Is it past its peak, is it more popular? Who knows? Why would anyone care? I have no vested interest in DB continuing and I'm more than happy to see it end. DB has tread so much ground and we got the right ending. Goku will forever trying to get stronger. There's nothing more to say on that subject. I like the ending with Uub, not because he's going to pass the torch. It's not about that. It's about Goku being happy there are more mountains to climb. It's like life. There's no grand end to all of this. No finish line other than the grave. All the loose threads are tied up by the end of Z, but we just get hints of where Goku is heading. That's fine. Given where he's been we know where he'll go. We just don't need to see it.

Fair enough.

Personally, I never found the original ending as satisfying as GT's, but I understand why the original ending was how it was, and in a lot of ways, I think it is a pretty great way for Toriyama to have ended the manga.

And, rather than trot him out for no good reason like Super seems obsessed with doing, GT put him aside and let him live his peaceful life in the background.

I disagree with this assessment. Super isn't backtracking his development. He's still competitive, he's just not insecure about it. The idea that Vegeta's epiphany would get rid of his competitiveness is silly. That's not who Vegeta was at the end of Z.

My read was always that Vegeta gave up on his ridiculous crusade to be stronger than Goku in the Boo arc, after that obsession took him to crazy places; he accepted that Goku is better, and -- as in GT -- worked to instead just get stronger in his own time, to find his own limits.

He's not given up getting stronger, he's just given up on the insurmountable task of beating Goku, the thing that had always driven him utterly crazy the entire time he'd been in the story.

Maybe it's my fault for interpreting it like that (and it's been a long-ass time since I saw the last few episodes of Z, so I can't remember if this was in the text or just something I read into it), but I always hated that Super pedalled that back to just "You are better than me at this moment but I'm still going to try to be stronger but not quite as obsessively as before." I always saw it as "You are better than me. You always have been. You're my better, Kakarot. You're #1. Now beat this son of a bitch so we can all go home."
BOG outright ends with him saying something to the effect of "I will be stronger than you, Kakarot." Which just had me rolling my eyes when I saw that.

The fights are the story and in the fights, they tell a story. The good action movies don't make a distinction between the two.

In GT, there's nothing that shows vegeta is getting stronger on his own. We don't really see him train beyond that weird gravity room in the clip show episode.

I much prefer how Super did it because I don't think that's back pedaling. I saw it as "You are better than me and I can admit that without insecurity." There's nothing in that statement that says he can't remain competitive and see Goku's strength as something to surpass or at least equal. Before he wanted to conquer Goku and publicly. Vegeta comes a long way from villain to the end of Z. Giving up fighting and becoming domestic is a step WAY too far.

[WittyUsername]

Good fights can only work if you have a reason to be invested in what’s going on in the story. Unfortunately, for a large chunk of the Tournament of Power, it was pretty difficult for me to stay invested in what was happening, so even though there were some neat fight scenes, they didn’t do a whole lot for me.

I will say this though, while I do think the Tournament of Power dragged on for way too long, watching an exhausted Goku and Freeza giving it everything they had to take down an equally exhausted Jiren was pretty satisfying, though I think part of that was relief that the whole thing was finally over.

[ABED]

I quite like the tournament of power. It's long but sufficiently different and yet another good place to end. Why keep going?

Going back to the point about the quality of the fights, it's a martial arts show. If the reason for watching it isn't of good quality, then it's a valid criticism to say it failed in its goals. To say otherwise would be like saying it's not a good criticism of a comedy to say it sucked because it didn't make you laugh. Sure, other aspects can make up for it but it's still not a point in its favor.

[Robo4900]

The fights are the story and in the fights, they tell a story. The good action movies don't make a distinction between the two.

The fights are A PART of the story. If the fights are all there is to the story, then Dragon Ball is nothing more than a Michael Bay movie, and every part of it that doesn't have a fight (basically all of the first arc, the entire prologue to the 21st Tenkaichi, almost every episode of the Red Ribbon, Piccolo, Namek, and Freeza arcs, a large portion of the filler arcs, etc.) is worthless filler.

To my estimation, pretty much the extent of the story told by a fight is two people in conflict exchanging blows, one does better, the other does better, ultimately one wins.
If all there is to your story is that, you have a pretty shit story. And that's ultimately where Super falls down.
As WittyUsername notes; as nice as a fight can look, if you have no reason to be invested, then you've still got a shitty story.

GT falls down in that its fights aren't very good, but the stories being told around the fights, and in the fights, are still pretty good. And that's why I forgive it so. Even though the fights themselves fall down, I'm invested enough to just enjoy the story, and the animation, and the music.

I can forgive some kinda shitty fights in an otherwise pretty okay anime.

But I can't forgive something where the only thing that isn't unmitigated shit is the fights.

A fight is like the solos in a metal song; a not-great solo is disappointing, but it doesn't mean the entire song is a writeoff. Strong melodies and lyrics elsewhere will still result in a pretty enjoyable experience.

Undeniably, the solos in a metal song, much like the fights in Dragon Ball, are a completely valid thing to criticise, and a poor solo may easily turn what could've been great (or just good) into something that's just okay, but writing the entire show off just because the fights aren't great seems reductive to me, when there's far more to good Dragon Ball than just good fighting.

I quite like the tournament of power. It's long but sufficiently different and yet another good place to end. Why keep going?

I really don't think it's any different to anything that's come before... It's another tournament, with the blandest antagonist yet, fighting Goku for no real stakes (anyone who seriously believed the other universes wouldn't be revived immediately is unspeakably naive), with new transformations pulled out of Toriyama's ass with no justification...

On one hand, yes, I would like Super to just be over with already, especially since I know how godawful the next storyline will be from reading the manga (it's not as bad as the TOP, but only because the beginning is kinda neat), but on the other, the TOP is such a damp fart of an ending, I'd rather that not be the final word.
Then again, maybe it's a pretty fitting ending for the modern era of Dragon Ball.

[WittyUsername]

I quite like the tournament of power. It's long but sufficiently different and yet another good place to end. Why keep going?

Going back to the point about the quality of the fights, it's a martial arts show. If the reason for watching it isn't of good quality, then it's a valid criticism to say it failed in its goals. To say otherwise would be like saying it's not a good criticism of a comedy to say it sucked because it didn't make you laugh. Sure, other aspects can make up for it but it's still not a point in its favor.

For some people, I think the characters and the world would be a bigger selling point for them than the quality of the fight scenes.

As for comedies, you are undeniably correct that a major goal of a comedy should be to make people laugh, but I don’t necessarily think that being funnier automatically makes one comedy better than another. For example, I love Office Space, which is a comedy, but it’s not an especially hilarious movie. It has a lot of Mike Judge’s trademark dry humor, but it works because of the characters and their interactions.

[ABED]

I don't think the world or lore are the selling point. Again, the fights aren't separate from the story. Stories are told through action. The Rocky movies are a perfect example. It's not all story, story, story, training, fight. The fights help tell the story of a boxer. Whatever he's going through in the film is conveyed in the fight.

If all there is to your story is that, you have a pretty shit story. And that's ultimately where Super falls down.

As WittyUsername notes; as nice as a fight can look, if you have no reason to be invested, then you've still got a shitty story.
This is wrong. It's like saying if all there is to your mystery is a few clues and red herrings and eventually an answer, you have a pretty shitty mystery. If you boil everything down such general terms, it all sounds boring. It's not like you're starting something new. We know who the characters are and by GT, we are invested in their journeys. It's not like you're being asked to invest in a story about characters you don't know and care about. We're already invested, that's how we get through hundreds of episodes to GT. We aren't starting tabula rasa. Super's failure is the over reliance on nostalgia.

Since DB is built around fighting, and every arc is building to some big battle, but the battle is lackluster, then it's a let down. It's like a movie that stumbles at the finish. The ending is arguably the most important part since it's the payoff.

It's another tournament, with the blandest antagonist yet, fighting Goku for no real stakes (anyone who seriously believed the other universes wouldn't be revived immediately is unspeakably naive), with new transformations pulled out of Toriyama's ass with no justification...

Jiren is a force of nature. Not every character has to aim to be three dimensional. While I understand where you're coming from about stakes, in the end, I still think it works because it was never about the stakes, it was Zen-Oh testing mortals. And UI being turned into a transformation bugs me even though it's not really a transformation. It works dramatically for Goku's progression as a fighter as it's about him reaching this level of skill that few reach because it's incredibly difficult even for gods. The ultimate martial arts skill is to be able to fight without conscious thought. So you're incorrect that it has no justification. It's the payoff to Whis's line as early as the second arc/film. It's a tournament, but it's a very different format that we've seen to this point.

What does GT have? It has a throwback adventure where they even intentionally reuse an old plot where a villain who turns out less threatening than he appeared to be threatened a village and wants a wife/girlfriend, forcing a male lead to cross-dress. Then there's baby, somewhat interesting but undercut by a boring fight and talk about a transformation pulled out of nowhere. Then there's the Super 17 arc because heaven forbid we don't have a DB arc that doesn't have a link to the RRA. Also, it's ends in a very boring fight, also Kuririn dies yet again. Then the final arc is all good idea, poor execution. I didn't write GT off JUST because of lackluster fights, but that is not a trivial reason.

A fight is like the solos in a metal song; a not-great solo is disappointing, but it doesn't mean the entire song is a writeoff. Strong melodies and lyrics elsewhere will still result in a pretty enjoyable experience.

This is a poor analogy. The fights are the draw and they are the payoff If you can't deliver on what the story is all building towards, it's so unsatisfying. Songs aren't just building towards solos. Look, stories have so many aspects to them that if you have enough of any of the elements to make up for some lackluster parts, it can make up for a lot, but stumbling at the ending can ruin pretty much anything that comes before.

[WittyUsername]

I can’t really agree with the idea that having better fights means a better story. I mean, the Star Wars prequels and sequels have better fight scenes and space battles than the original trilogy, but I don’t think very many people would consider either of those trilogies to be better than the latter.

[ABED]

I can’t really agree with the idea that having better fights means a better story. I mean, the Star Wars prequels and sequels have better fight scenes and space battles than the original trilogy, but I don’t think very many people would consider either of those trilogies to be better than the latter.

Fine disagree with a point I never made.

I should clarify my point. In DB, the fights are the story in that the stories in DB are centered around fighting. It's a story about martial artists. In other action films, that's not always the case. It depends, but in action films, the action isn't separate from the story, it's part of the story. The bad ones are the ones that forget that.

[WittyUsername]

I can’t really agree with the idea that having better fights means a better story. I mean, the Star Wars prequels and sequels have better fight scenes and space battles than the original trilogy, but I don’t think very many people would consider either of those trilogies to be better than the latter.

Fine disagree with a point I never made.

You said that the fight scenes are the story aim a martial arts series. Shouldn’t the same apply to a fantasy series about space battles and laser swords? I’m just trying to understand your point.

[ABED]

I can’t really agree with the idea that having better fights means a better story. I mean, the Star Wars prequels and sequels have better fight scenes and space battles than the original trilogy, but I don’t think very many people would consider either of those trilogies to be better than the latter.

Fine disagree with a point I never made.

You said that the fight scenes are the story aim a martial arts series. Shouldn’t the same apply to a fantasy series about space battles and laser swords? I’m just trying to understand your point.

In the case of Star Wars, it's a story about war, which is pretty broad. They aren't really action movies. They're fairy tales. The movies begin with "a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..." The point is different. Stories come out of character and action should be no different. How a character fights should tell us about the character. When fights are just empty choreography, then yeah, even a fun looking fight can be boring, but if the choreography comes out of character, then it can be magic. Toriyama at his best does that really well.

I would go as far as to say the lightsaber duels in the prequels aren't better. They're more elaborate and arguably cooler, but not better.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I can’t really agree with the idea that having better fights means a better story. I mean, the Star Wars prequels and sequels have better fight scenes and space battles than the original trilogy, but I don’t think very many people would consider either of those trilogies to be better than the latter.

This is a super pointless tangeant but

I wouldn't say they have better fight scenes. They have better choreography and editing but the fights are kinda empty. The fights are all the same with nothing to distinguish the different participants. It's just slashing, jumping, and occasional force pushing. As poorly choreographed as they were I still think Luke's two fights against Vader were better than what we see in the follow up material. Both those fights very effectively establish both characters, their mindsets, and their strengths which to me makes them leagues more impactful.

Which, to bring this back to Dragon Ball, is also how I feel about a lot of the post Cell era fights. That's not to say Cell vs Gohan was all that good when compared to every other fight in the franchise but that was probably the last time the fighters' personalities and temperments were part of the action. In Super that dimension of the fights has almost completely vanished which makes it hard to remember what's actually happening throught the show's many many fights.

[Zeon_Grunt]

GT proves that having crappy fights and derivative stories after a 10 year consistent run will turn away audiences.

The world is a very different place than it was when the manga was still going. Is it past its peak, is it more popular? Who knows? Why would anyone care? I have no vested interest in DB continuing and I'm more than happy to see it end. DB has tread so much ground and we got the right ending. Goku will forever trying to get stronger. There's nothing more to say on that subject. I like the ending with Uub, not because he's going to pass the torch. It's not about that. It's about Goku being happy there are more mountains to climb. It's like life. There's no grand end to all of this. No finish line other than the grave. All the loose threads are tied up by the end of Z, but we just get hints of where Goku is heading. That's fine. Given where he's been we know where he'll go. We just don't need to see it.

The only thing derivative about GT's stories was that it was forced to be Goku saving Pan over and over. It still introduced multiple great concepts to the franchise that some would like to see revisited with better storytelling and characters.

You know, your preaching at me for immaturity (for wanting to see DB as a franchise grow and expand) in the other thread is absolutely hilarious when you're over here making statements like "I have no interest in DB continuing, so why should anyone else?" Other people like the damn characters and universe enough to want to continue exploring it for years to come. There's more potential than just "what's Goku doing" in a world with a multiverse of alien races that have differing and unique powers and abilities thanks to the manipulation of Ki. Vegeta's new story in the Moro arc is all about showing him that the way Saiyans manipulate Ki isn't the only way, nor the most effective or creative it can be. Just because YOU'RE only interested in Goku's story, doesn't mean that's all anyone else is or should be interested in.

[ABED]

People have pointed out Baby's story is very similar to The Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, and I just told you the first arcs of GT and DB are intentionally very similar. GT is derivative.

The concepts aren't great. They're interesting and there's potential but the execution is lacking and execution is everything.

You know, your preaching at me for immaturity (for wanting to see DB as a franchise grow and expand) in the other thread is absolutely hilarious when you're over here making statements like "I have no interest in DB continuing, so why should anyone else?" Other people like the damn characters and universe enough to want to continue exploring it for years to come. There's more potential than just "what's Goku doing" in a world with a multiverse of alien races that have differing and unique powers and abilities thanks to the manipulation of Ki. Vegeta's new story in the Moro arc is all about showing him that the way Saiyans manipulate Ki isn't the only way, nor the most effective or creative it can be. Just because YOU'RE only interested in Goku's story, doesn't mean that's all anyone else is or should be interested in.

No, I'm talking to you about immaturity because of your feelings of entitlement. What you want is the appearance of growth but a never ending franchise is the opposite. Everything ends. It's a fact of life. Acknowledging that shows maturity. You want to desperately cling to something from your childhood to the point where it has to change forms to cater to you even if it's unrecognizable. Why are you so damn desperate to explore all those worlds without the lead character? If we aren't with Goku and Vegeta and Gohan, etc. what makes it DB? The multiverse isn't fundamentally different than interstellar travel. If a series did explore those world without Goku and Co, why not just make it a new story? Why make it Dragon Ball?

I don't understand your point about Vegeta. Like are you thinking I don't care about Vegeta's story because it's not centered on Goku? If so, that's just false. I have made this point over and over and explicitly and yet people keep twisting my words and falsely claiming I'm saying Goku is the only character that matters and if it's not about him it doesn't matter. Goku is the central character does not mean I'm uninterested in the other characters. Nothing in the first part of that sentence implies the latter.

[Robo4900]

People have pointed out Baby's story is very similar to The Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, and I just told you the first arcs of GT and DB are intentionally very similar. GT is derivative.

Congratulations, you've pointed out some surface-level similarities regarding one of its three storylines...

[WittyUsername]

I suppose you could also argue that the Baby arc borrows a bit from the Garlic Jr. arc, what with the entire Earth getting brainwashed by the bad guy, only for the Ultra Divine Water to save the day. Still, I do think that GT handled that concept better than the Garlic Jr. filler.

[Zeon_Grunt]

People have pointed out Baby's story is very similar to The Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, and I just told you the first arcs of GT and DB are intentionally very similar. GT is derivative.

Baby's story is only similar in that they're about the Tuffle King getting revenge on the Saiyans. Everything about it is completely different up to and including the designs of said Tuffle King... But yes, the first arc, the one that was meant to bring back the tone and style of the original DB was similar in tone and style of the original Dragon Ball. That's not a flaw, that's a feature, as you put it. That still doesn't tell me how the Shadow Dragons arc is derivative.

The concepts aren't great. They're interesting and there's potential

That's what makes a story's concept great, not it's execution... Execution is how the concept is explored or explained, not what it is...

No, I'm talking to you about immaturity because of your feelings of entitlement.

Lecturing someone about immaturity while displaying your own brand of it in another topic is hypocrisy at it's finest is what I was getting at.

What you want is the appearance of growth but a never ending franchise is the opposite.

Growth of the FRANCHISE is different from growth of a character... No matter how much you want to say otherwise, Goku's presence isn't necessary for a story in the Dragon Ball FRANCHISE. Regardless of what you or I personally want regarding an endless franchise, that's Toei and Toriyama's decision and they're obviously trying to take the series in that direction. Accepting that fact and purposing ways for it to continue in that direction is the exact opposite of immaturity.

At this point in time, Dragon Ball is a for profit franchise, not a singular artist's work of art. It hasn't been that in years and they're actively taking steps to move it to the next stage.

I don't understand your point about Vegeta. Like are you thinking I don't care about Vegeta's story because it's not centered on Goku? If so, that's just false. I have made this point over and over and explicitly and yet people keep twisting my words and falsely claiming I'm saying Goku is the only character that matters and if it's not about him it doesn't matter. Goku is the central character does not mean I'm uninterested in the other characters. Nothing in the first part of that sentence implies the latter.

No, I'm bringing up Vegeta's story because it explicitly shows a way of expanding the universe and opening the franchise up to new potential stories and powers beyond "shoot laser; blow shit up."

[ABED]

People have pointed out Baby's story is very similar to The Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, and I just told you the first arcs of GT and DB are intentionally very similar. GT is derivative.

Congratulations, you've pointed out some surface-level similarities regarding one of its three storylines...

The plan to eradicate the Saiyans having a villain who has ties to Tsufuruians and wants revenge is HARDLY what anyone should call surface level, but thanks for being sooooo condescending. You're sooooo helpful. The details are different but their motives are very specifically the same.

By the way, I also pointed out the first arc was intentionally similar to DB's very first arc down to having one episode being a throwback to a specific episode from the first series And I wrote "derivative" not "same". I'm not even saying it's terrible to be derivative, but it is a point against it.

No, I'm bringing up Vegeta's story because it explicitly shows a way of expanding the universe and opening the franchise up to new potential stories and powers beyond "shoot laser; blow shit up."

Yes, it's exploring some facet of Vegeta's character. That's STORYTELLING, not bullshit lore and worldbuilding. It's character development.

Growth of the FRANCHISE is different from growth of a character

It's not growth of anything. Inability to let go is the opposite of growth. Going to other places in the universe is a lateral move.

That's what makes a story's concept great, not it's execution... Execution is how the concept is explored or explained, not what it is...

Ideas don't really matter. As JR put it, potential don't pay the bills. I'm well aware of what execution is, so thank you for explaining something that didn't need explaining. Anyone can throw out ideas that sound good, but they don't amount to much if you can't execute.