What if the anime didn't follow the manga

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:51 pm

Rocketman wrote: -Leaves after Baba's tournament
--To train for the next World Tournament (Eh...maybe, but it's not like he could train effectively with Roshi anymore)

So you don't think that one was entirely justified? He did want to spend those three years with Master Roshi, Krillin, Yamcha, and the rest, remember. It's Roshi who ordered him to do otherwise.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:19 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:
Rocketman wrote: -Leaves after Baba's tournament
--To train for the next World Tournament (Eh...maybe, but it's not like he could train effectively with Roshi anymore)
So you don't think that one was entirely justified? He did want to spend those three years with Master Roshi, Krillin, Yamcha, and the rest, remember. It's Roshi who ordered him to do otherwise.

Whoops, I actually forgot that part.

Totally justified.

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:20 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:And to me, that sums up so much more accurately Goku's character and the "carefree and adventurous" essence that is DB itself. Essentially what I'm saying is, I completely disagree with you and I liked the ending.

Agreed, I liked the ending as well. I think people are overreacting towards Son Goku's actions.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:27 pm

Overreacting? Hardly. There's nothing positive about abandoning your family to spend time with a stranger kid when it wasn't even totally necessary.

Calcaneus · Post by **Calcaneus** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:52 pm

There would either be more pandering to the fans' desire to see Goku be the winner of every fight, or they would have followed the "Gohan is the new hero" path and make him the hero for the end of the series.

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:16 pm

Ok, back to the Goku's-reasons thing.

I don't really have complaints with the DB stuff, because what doesn't completely make sense isn't so bad because he doesn't have a family yet. Now.

Radditz? Understood. Kinda dead, kinda has a lot to do.
Porunga? Kinda pissed, but I can live with it. Though I understand the increased levels of anxiety and overmothering that result as Chichi feels progressivly abandoned.
After Cell? Furious. What, can't they ask anybody in the overworld to search for Nameksei? Or maybe Dende knows the location of his own planet. If Kaio's pissed off Son blew him up I can see why he wouldn't tell them, but there's gotta be somebody in the overworld they could ask. Or I don't know, ask Shenron where Nameksei is. There had to be some kind of option, though Son never seemed to be too concerned about it to bother finding one. That's part of what makes me angry, that he's so casual about it.

A question. As I haven't actually gotten to Buu, I don't exactly know how the whole visit thing works. Does Son have any ability to request when he could go? Like... I dunno, the birth of his second child? Or even if they're busy then, maybe some time before the kid's seven?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:37 pm

Velasa wrote:After Cell? Furious. What, can't they ask anybody in the overworld to search for Nameksei?

Who? The only ones they know are Kai and Yemma, and Yemma only handles the check-in part for the dead.

Or maybe Dende knows the location of his own planet.

Would you know where Earth was if you were suddenly teleported halfway across the galaxy?

Or I don't know, ask Shenron where Nameksei is.

Then what? New Namek is apparently so far away that Goku, who could teleport from Earth to King Kai's world easily had to concentrate in silence for a while to be able to teleport to it.

A question. As I haven't actually gotten to Buu, I don't exactly know how the whole visit thing works. Does Son have any ability to request when he could go? Like... I dunno, the birth of his second child? Or even if they're busy then, maybe some time before the kid's seven?

It's never really explained. Grandpa Gohan came back because when Baba approached him as a potential fighter in her tournament, he said he would if she told him when/if a boy with a tail showed up.

Plus, Goku doesn't have any way of knowing what's happening on Earth, since Baba seemingly can't go to the part of the afterlife he's in. He didn't even know ChiChi was pregnant/that he had a second son.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:44 pm

Plus, Goku doesn't have any way of knowing what's happening on Earth

Yeah, he didn't overhear anyone talking about a tournament or anything like that.

Oh, and everyone went to New Nameck in the 6th movie by spaceship, but that's a movie and all that, so...

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:12 pm

Adamant wrote:Yeah, he didn't overhear anyone talking about a tournament or anything like that.

Yeah, I don't get that part either. Maybe you have to be dead for a while before you can come back to life for a day. Goku found out he'd done so after seven years and got King Kai to tune in to Gohan, Gohan thinks of the tournament, yadda yadda. Could be why he didn't come back for the 24th Budokai.

Oh, and everyone went to New Nameck in the 6th movie by spaceship, but that's a movie and all that, so...

A movie that had Dende as Earth's Kami at the same time as a non-Super Saiyan Gohan, which also means Piccolo should be fused with Kami and the strongest of the heros...

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:18 pm

Snail wrote:Overreacting? Hardly. There's nothing positive about abandoning your family to spend time with a stranger kid when it wasn't even totally necessary.

See? This is what I and others like Sebastian are talking about. It's Toriyama's DragonBall. Something that started out and was always meant to be a light-hearted adventurous and comedic series, not ABC's Afterschool Special. People need to relax and lighten up a little. ._.

TheGreatness25 · Post by **TheGreatness25** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:30 pm

It started out that way, but the series progressed and evolved into something a lot more epic and serious. I don't care how it was meant to be or how it started. What it was, was something a lot more serious. In DBZ, right from the get-go it was super serious. Hell, I'd say that by the King Piccolo Saga it was much more serious. How can you have a series that is so serious and epic...and then in the end screw everyone over just because the "idea" was for it to be light-hearted?

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:53 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:It started out that way, but the series progressed and evolved into something a lot more epic and serious. I don't care how it was meant to be or how it started. What it was, was something a lot more serious. In DBZ, right from the get-go it was super serious. Hell, I'd say that by the King Piccolo Saga it was much more serious. How can you have a series that is so serious and epic...and then in the end screw everyone over just because the "idea" was for it to be light-hearted?

Ya because everyone knows Buu sitting on a toilet and making Satan scrub his back in the bath was an "on the edge of your seat and tense" moment.

That's part of what makes DB have such charm. No matter how serious it got, it always retained a light-hearted side. To me it seems that the people who were the most upset by the ending had forgotten that and that's a big reason why they don't like it.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:53 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:See? This is what I and others like Sebastian are talking about. It's Toriyama's DragonBall. Something that started out and was always meant to be a light-hearted adventurous and comedic series, not ABC's Afterschool Special. People need to relax and lighten up a little. ._.

"Light-hearted and comedic" tends to go out the window once you start murdering children.

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:04 pm

Mmmmmmh > >

Typically the arguments I heard for why Son stayed away after Cell revolved around "oh no, I can't put the earth in danger by being there because it's just me everybody's after". These are more compelling, but I'm still irritated at him because with all the ridiculous BS you can pull in that show there hada be some way he could have figured out at least that there was a kid. It compounds with any number of stupid things he's done in relationship to his wife and kids, and how when he shows up he acts like absolutely nothing's happened and hey Chichi what're you so mad about? There are only so many levels of stupidity that can be forgiven.

EDIT- just read some posts I missed while typing this. New comments.

Jerseymilk wrote:Ya because everyone knows Buu sitting on a toilet and making Satan scrub his back in the bath was an "on the edge of your seat and tense" moment.

That's part of what makes DB have such charm. No matter how serious it got, it always retained a light-hearted side. To me it seems that the people who were the most upset by the ending had forgotten that and that's a big reason why they don't like it.

Like I said earlier, there's still a lot of strangeness and silliness, but there's much more than that too. And I've always personally gone in for the serious stuff because that's what grabs me, so I debate the serious bits. What makes the whole series great to me is that there's stuff for everyone.

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:16 pm

Rocketman wrote:"Light-hearted and comedic" tends to go out the window once you start murdering children.

Not if you turn them into chocolate

I think most of the light-heartedness and comedic moments come from characters like Son Goku, Kuririn, & Mr. Satan. Hell, the whole Buu Saga was a takeback to its roots, so I can kinda forgive the ending and Goku's character in general. I see what you mean though, but hey it's a cartoon from Japan. The same people that think Hokuto no Ken is okay for kids.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:16 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:
Snail wrote:Overreacting? Hardly. There's nothing positive about abandoning your family to spend time with a stranger kid when it wasn't even totally necessary.
See? This is what I and others like Sebastian are talking about. It's Toriyama's DragonBall. Something that started out and was always meant to be a light-hearted adventurous and comedic series, not ABC's Afterschool Special. People need to relax and lighten up a little. ._.

I am relax, and I'm not having a spaz attack. I know what DragonBall is, and it's obvious to me that Toriyama's DragonBall series doesn't have to be taken extremely seriously at all times. However, all I am saying is that there really isn't anything positive about Goku leaving his wife and loved ones for years. Nothing wrong with that, right?

SaiyaMel · Post by **SaiyaMel** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:24 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:You know, it's true. Goku is a dick. He doesn't care about leaving his friends or family for years on in. He doesn't even remember them. He just goes off to do his own thing. And him marrying ChiChi was funny. He didn't care about her, and agreed to marry her, but at the same time didn't want her hugging him or holding his arm or whatnot.

I think that's his Saiyan nature surfacing.

fighting/sparring comes first..

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:24 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Jerseymilk wrote:See? This is what I and others like Sebastian are talking about. It's Toriyama's DragonBall. Something that started out and was always meant to be a light-hearted adventurous and comedic series, not ABC's Afterschool Special. People need to relax and lighten up a little. ._.
"Light-hearted and comedic" tends to go out the window once you start murdering children.

Agreed. It goes away once you have 15 year olds get murdered and have a 4 year old boy get kidnapped by his uncle and subsequently gets abandoned on an island for 6 months and has to spend the other 6 months with a weird green guy guy who happened to be the man that killed his father via impalement.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:47 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
Jerseymilk wrote:See? This is what I and others like Sebastian are talking about. It's Toriyama's DragonBall. Something that started out and was always meant to be a light-hearted adventurous and comedic series, not ABC's Afterschool Special. People need to relax and lighten up a little. ._.
"Light-hearted and comedic" tends to go out the window once you start murdering children.
Agreed. It goes away once you have 15 year olds get murdered and have a 4 year old boy get kidnapped by his uncle and subsequently gets abandoned on an island for 6 months and has to spend the other 6 months with a weird green guy guy who happened to be the man that killed his father via impalement.

Nursey rhymes have animal abuse and child abuse yet they're considered light-hearted. Your point?

Kid Trunks · Post by **Kid Trunks** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:50 pm

I always hated the fact that on the one day Goku came back from other world he goes to a tournament. Despite coming from a place where people do nothing but fight. And besides, how was that supposed to work out anyway. All the previous Budokai's took place over a couple of days, Goku only had one day.

As for Z's ending, I hate it. Goku sees Uub as a chance for a great fight. Yet Gohan has shown himself to be the strongest guy on earth, who knows what Vegeta was capable of after 10 years, and Goten and Trunks may well have had more potential than anybody. It makes no sense for Goku to leave with Uub. After following the anime/manga for so long, its fair for fans to see the ending as a bit of a cop-out.

And as far as Dragonball and Z being lighthearted goes, Dragonball was much more humorous lighthearted, yet I didn't feel fucked over with the ending (albeit possibly because I knew it wasn't really over, but still, I would have been satisfied had it ended there).

For me, Dragonball should have ended at dub episode "273. He's always late". This should have been the last image we saw, until it zooms in on Goku's face and the narrator says "Goku truly is number one under the sun"...

The 10 year skip at the end of Z is complete unnecessary.