Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

[MasenkoHA]

I don't buy that. He's a few hundred yards from Freeza's ship which is in orbit around Vegeta. And the Namek Arc implies that Freeza's ability to survive in the vacuum of space is a rare ability.

And what about Goku? Do you buy him going to the Moon to leave Carrot there?

It was a gag you weren’t suppose to think too hard about because it was just an excuse for Toriyama to make a Rabbit on the moon joke.

[Sadala Elite]

What about Zarbon & Dodoria?

Technically the Oozaru can kill both and some of GF members... but I get what you're saying. Still, Bardock is arguabily the most powerful saiyan at that time.

So my cute and fun topic ends like this. One sole member taking over the entire thread. SAD.

Yeah, sorry about that.

You're still missing the main point smh.

- The fact that literally any other character could have got it in the same way means its not a Sue trait. Simple logic bro.

- His 10000 PL made zero impact on the events of the story. Even if he had a PL of 20000 nothing would have changed in the movie, which logically means it isnt a Sue trait. Its only real purpose narratively is to reinforce Freeza's fear of the Saiyans.

I can answer almost all your phrases at the same time: it's never about one thing making Bardock a Gary Sue, but about the whole package, from the things that "anyone could have" from some unnecessary things.

- If we don't see nor even hear about other characters turning against Freeza on screen, then we have every reason to assume that they didn't. Its called show don't tell.

But the possibility is still there.

A "whole package" of non-Sue traits don't make a Sue. You aren't making any sense.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I don't buy that. He's a few hundred yards from Freeza's ship which is in orbit around Vegeta. And the Namek Arc implies that Freeza's ability to survive in the vacuum of space is a rare ability.

And what about Goku? Do you buy him going to the Moon to leave Carrot there?

I'm not sure how that scene helps your point. It's overtly comical and not meant to be taken seriously. LIke Krillin supposedly not having a nose or Yamcha breaking the top of the panel. Bardock's scene is meant to be taken seriously and I've already said I'm willing to set aside it's cartoon logic elements because I think it works overall.

[SSJgogeto]

A "whole package" of non-Sue traits don't make a Sue. You aren't making any sense.

I guess we are in a stalemate then. I don't think these traits make someone a Sue/Stu individually, but at the same time I think they give "points". Like, you need 100 to make a Sue, but the traits give you only 15 or 20 each one.

[Grimlock]

It was a gag you weren’t suppose to think too hard about because it was just an excuse for Toriyama to make a Rabbit on the moon joke.

I'm not sure how that scene helps your point. It's overtly comical and not meant to be taken seriously. LIke Krillin supposedly not having a nose or Yamcha breaking the top of the panel. Bardock's scene is meant to be taken seriously

Alright. Let me reformulate it then: what about Goku vs Beerus? Do you buy that?

[Potara-Warrior96]

Not many characters in Dragonball characters come close with only a few exceptions. Old Bardock doesn't even register as his whole story was one of tragedy and inevitably. Future Trunks in Super had some Gary-Stu like moments like how he unlocked SSJ-rage and the genki-dama sword but do to him losing everything it sorta balances out. Nu-Broly on the other-hand probably checks out most of the qualifications though:

1. Has main character Goku automatically assume he's a good person without actually knowing him at all.

2.The plot constantly bends over to make people feel sympathy for him when his problems are very weak sauce especially in comparison to the OG-Broly. Really doesn't help at all that we never see him go through the terrors of having to survive on his own post being sent to another planet.

3. The fact that he some uber powerful saiyan without any actual reason for being that powerful is another one. Hell, he basically embodies all the things people despised olf Broly for that was misconstrued by fans. Things like how fans believed OG-Broly power-level to infintely rise the longer he fights and now its actually canon with Nu-Broly.

Honorable mentions go to Kale and Caulifa. Simply having back tingles and acquiring super saiyans forms without any work and Kales reasoning for hulking out being straight up laughable plus how she acually gained controll of the lssj form. I know people love to mention Goten and Trunks in defense of Kale and Caulifa but fail to remember saiyan/human hybrids are naturally stronger than thier parents were at they're age. Also Goten and Trunks even after acauiring ssj wasn't really much to write home about anyway.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Alright. Let me reformulate it then: what about Goku vs Beerus? Do you buy that?

Post-Cell Goku was basically a divine being (he could even teleport to King Kai's planet which doesn't feel like something a mortal should be able to do) and in BoG that's made explicit. So for that era's Goku, yes I am willing to accept that he can fight in space and under lava and anywhere else the animation staff think would look cool.

Bardock's original story was meant to be more grounded with the super natural features there mostly there to torment him. In that story, Bardock fighting in space doesn't make much logical sense.

[Grimlock]

Post-Cell Goku was basically a divine being (he could even teleport to King Kai's planet which doesn't feel like something a mortal should be able to do)

And they shouldn't. As we later discover that the gods have god ki and it couldn't be sensed by a mortal. Anyway.

and in BoG that's made explicit. So for that era's Goku, yes I am willing to accept that he can fight in space and under lava and anywhere else the animation staff think would look cool.

Bardock's original story was meant to be more grounded with the super natural features there mostly there to torment him. In that story, Bardock fighting in space doesn't make much logical sense.

Eh, but not really. That's not how it works. It's not "oh so you are basically a divine being? Okay, you can breathe in space now, congratulations!". Breathing in space is not some very special technique someone can occasionally learn or anything, and again, it's not like Bardock was in space either. You'd have to zoom off the image so we could see more of the surrounding to determine exactly where Bardock was. If Goku can fight close to the planet, all Saiyans can do it too.

If I am to guess based on this image, Bardock was close or below to the thermosphere, and if I remember correctly, there's still air in these layers.

Spoiler:

[Akyon]

Not many characters in Dragonball characters come close with only a few exceptions. Old Bardock doesn't even register as his whole story was one of tragedy and inevitably. Future Trunks in Super had some Gary-Stu like moments like how he unlocked SSJ-rage and the genki-dama sword but do to him losing everything it sorta balances out. Nu-Broly on the other-hand probably checks out most of the qualifications though:

1. Has main character Goku automatically assume he's a good person without actually knowing him at all.

2.The plot constantly bends over to make people feel sympathy for him when his problems are very weak sauce especially in comparison to the OG-Broly. Really doesn't help at all that we never see him go through the terrors of having to survive on his own post being sent to another planet.

3. The fact that he some uber powerful saiyan without any actual reason for being that powerful is another one. Hell, he basically embodies all the things people despised olf Broly for that was misconstrued by fans. Things like how fans believed OG-Broly power-level to infintely rise the longer he fights and now its actually canon with Nu-Broly.

Came in here to mention OG Broly, but by the gods I think you have a point with Nu Broly too. Which is weird because I genuinely prefer the newer more fleshed out version but I can't argue your points.

[Dbzk1999]

2.The plot constantly bends over to make people feel sympathy for him when his problems are very weak sauce especially in comparison to the OG-Broly. Really doesn't help at all that we never see him go through the terrors of having to survive on his own post being sent to another planet.

While I disagree with each point in some way, I just wanna address this one in particular to the bolded. What makes his problems “weak sauce” in comparison to the old Broly? Cause I’d say besides King Vegeta directly attempting to kill him vs more subtlety doing it (through exile), Super Broly had it worse.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball Super's Broli is literally a kind-hearted victim of abuse and PTSD that people with bad childhoods can identify with. Dragon Ball Z Broli simply doesn't like Gokuu and...is evil for the sake of it.

[SupremeKai25]

Dragon Ball Super's Broli is literally a kind-hearted victim of abuse and PTSD that people with bad childhoods can identify with. Dragon Ball Z Broli simply doesn't like Gokuu and...is evil for the sake of it.

Agreed. DBZ Broly was literally the most generic villain you could write. Perhaps he only beats Kid Buu in terms of personality, because at least Broly spells some sentences.

I don't like DBS Broly, but at least this time they tried giving him a personality and some nuance.

[ABED]

Dragon Ball Super's Broli is literally a kind-hearted victim of abuse and PTSD that people with bad childhoods can identify with. Dragon Ball Z Broli simply doesn't like Gokuu and...is evil for the sake of it.

Agreed. DBZ Broly was literally the most generic villain you could write. Perhaps he only beats Kid Buu in terms of personality, because at least Broly spells some sentences.

I don't like DBS Broly, but at least this time they tried giving him a personality and some nuance.

Do they though? He's a cliched abused child who develops rage issues and lashes out at even the good guys trying to help him. Sometimes a one note wrecking machine works just fine. The problem is he got over exposed. It's not true that villains have to have fully developed three dimensional personas and backstories. A cool look and presence alone works well sometimes.

Everything is dependent on execution, and I'd rather a well executed 2 dimensional character than a boring attempt at a 3 dimensional character.

[Matches Malone]

DBZ Broly was literally the most generic villain you could write.

Which is fine for what they were going for, but why on earth did they give him "that" reason for hating Goku ? I honestly can't believe that got past the first/early draft of the movie much less making it in.

[ABED]

DBZ Broly was literally the most generic villain you could write.

Which is fine for what they were going for, but why on earth did they give him "that" reason for hating Goku ? I honestly can't believe that got past the first/early draft of the movie much less making it in.

I don't think that was his reason, but whatever the writers may have been going for got lost in execution because it's easy to see why people can come away thinking Broly's hatred stems from being made to cry as a baby.

[Matches Malone]

I don't think that was his reason, but whatever the writers may have been going for got lost in execution because it's easy to see why people can come away thinking Broly's hatred stems from being made to cry as a baby.

That was his reason though, they outright say it in the movie.

[ABED]

I don't think that was his reason, but whatever the writers may have been going for got lost in execution because it's easy to see why people can come away thinking Broly's hatred stems from being made to cry as a baby.

That was his reason though, they outright say it in the movie.

When? It's been a while since I've seen the movie.

Now that I think of it, old Broly is a psychopath. He would still amuse himself by wrecking stuff, but his hatred of Goku makes an odd sort of sense to a person like that. It works okay as a one off.

[Matches Malone]

When? It's been a while since I've seen the movie.

If I remember correctly, his father told Vegeta that when asked what he had against Goku. Come to think of it, Vegeta's mental breakdown is another thing I wonder how got past the first draft.

[ABED]

When? It's been a while since I've seen the movie.

If I remember correctly, his father told Vegeta that when asked what he had against Goku. Come to think of it, Vegeta's mental breakdown is another thing I wonder how got past the first draft.

I don't recall him saying to Vegeta that Broly hates Goku because he made him cry.

And what's wrong with Vegeta's breakdown? He's had similar moments where he just loses his willpower in the face an overwhelming threat like against Freeza.

[WittyUsername]

When? It's been a while since I've seen the movie.

If I remember correctly, his father told Vegeta that when asked what he had against Goku. Come to think of it, Vegeta's mental breakdown is another thing I wonder how got past the first draft.

I don't recall him saying to Vegeta that Broly hates Goku because he made him cry.

He didn’t. I think Matches Malone is getting it mixed up with the TeamFourStar version. The movie never actually spells out why Broly hates Goku. The crying thing is only implied.