Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Sadala Elite]

- YOU are the ignorant one if you refuse to acknowledge the fact that Toriyama co-wrote those guides just to protect your headcanon. You are living in denial. And the fact that they still all say that SSJ1 is 50x for years speaks for itself (which means he likely changed his mind after that interview you keep using). And even if he didn't co-wrote them, he still gave them official approval, which makes them valid, NOT your headcanon.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

That's just one of many examples of Toriyama approving and co-making these guides, the same guides that all say SSJ1 is 50x.

That's an interview to Toriyama INCLUDED IN THE GUIDE, of course, what Toriyama answers in this interview can be considered written by him.
But the sole fact that the Guides include an interview to the author of the series ALREADY PROVES that they weren't written by the author of the series, otherwise TORIYAMA WOULD NOT INTERVIEW HIMSELF!

You've wasted many posts trying to spin Toriyama's words to make him say the opposite of what he said, and now you're trying to spin Time and reality to make Toriyama say that the 50x mulitplier was exaggerated before the 50x multiplier was published anywhere?

And besides, how the hell could Toriyama change his mind about a scene that was already DRAWN? Unless you can prove that he redrew that scene and that it was different in the original run of the manga (which is clearly NOT THE CASE), what you say makes absolutely no sense.

- Nobody said that Freeza is immune to injuries (learn how to read). The point about Freeza's race' durability is that they DON'T lose power from injuries. That Freeza did not get any weaker do to the Spirit Bomb or the punches he got from SSJ1 Goku while still using only 50% because if he did then he wouldnt have stated to have used his full power (logic).

If Freezer don't lose power from injuries, why the hell can't he even fly after he is cut by his own kienzan? It surely was not a fatal injury because once Goku gave him a bit of Ki, he proved to be mor than capable to survive despite being cut.
Why did Goku give Cell a senzu bean to recover if Cell had Freezer's cells and shouldn't lose any strength, and why did Cell act as if he had recovered his strength if he hadn't lost any at that point?
Why does Freezer say that he has lost power if that wasn't true?

- There's not a single quote or feat in the series that says Freeza in Z was stronger than any Androids or that Freeza got weaker do to the Spirit Bomb (its just your headcanon). A challenge you to find a single quote or image in the series that says otherwise.

Chapter 323 from the manga:
Freezer: It would be wise to leave the planet quickly, if I'm stuck in the explosion I'll lose EVEN MORE strength.

So not only Freeza confirms that he can lose strength when injured by huge explosions (helllo Genkidama) but that he has already lost strength.

I can't wait to see how do you try to spin that sentence to make Freeza say that his power is intact. The mental gimnastics will be incredible.

Show me a quote from the manga or anime that says Freeza got weaker from the Spirit Bomb.

Chapter 317 from the manga:
Freezer: Even as hurt as I am I'll still be able to kill you all.

Chapter 323 from the manga:
Freezer: It would be wise to leave the planet quickly, if I'm stuck in the explosion I'll lose EVEN MORE strength.

So if the quote from chapter 317 wasn't clear enough (what sense does it make for him to say this if he hasn't lost his strength?) we have the quote from chapter 323 that further confirms that Freezer has already lost power (and that's 2 chapters before Goku explains to him that his 100% started to get weaker as soon as he reached it).

SSJ1 is repeatingly stated and shown to be stronger than Kaioken. If SSJ1 was only a 10x boost then that wouldn't make any sense because Kaioken can go up to 20x. It would only make sense if SSJ1 was a 50x boost.

False (never in the series it's directly stated that the KKx20 was below the untrained SSJ1, and if you say it was, then copy-paste this statement here).
The point of comparison is Freezer but the SSJ1 only appeared after he was badly injured and you only have to see the mental gimnastics you have to make to leave Freezer's injuries out of the equation when trying to explain it.
Furthermore, it's the author of the series' stance the one you're contradicting, you'll need more than your personal view on a scene to convince me that the author was wrong -and that would be if you didn't contradict the logic of the whole series to make your point, which you do-.

And no, Freeza WAS still able to fly after getting cut in half, he's seen flying while trying to blast Goku.

False again. Freeza was in the ground asking Goku for help, he only becames able to fly and fire that last ki blast after Goku gives him some ki.
You're again contradicting the manga to fit your absolutely unreasonable stance that not only goes against what's drawn, but also agains't the author's own words.

Saying Super Saiyan is weaker than Kaioken presents a logical plothole in why Goku would never use Kaioken again if he can be literally twice as strong as he is as a Super Saiyan at any given time (and certainly wouldn't take into account how everyone who can sense ki reacts to Goku's newfound power).

The KK had the drawback of destroying Goku's body, and there was never a need for it to be used.
When Goku fought against the future androids, even going SSJ already make his illnes go wild so the KK was out of the equation from the begining.
After he recovered from the illnes, he already had decided that he would train the SSJ and improve it (which is what he did in the training in the RoSaT). After the RoSaT training the SSJ became a 30-40x mulitplier for him, so the KK was worse in every single aspect (less strength and much, much more damaging to the body -the SSJ didn't damage it at all, in fact-).

That being said, saying none of the main androids are stronger than Frieza ALSO posits a logical plothole in how the hell two Super Saiyans can easily decimate Frieza but get their butts kicked in turn by the androids. If that were the case, Trunks would have never needed to go back in time.

Goku didn't easily decimate Freeza. He had a close fight with him until Freeza's power depleted as a consequence of his lack of stamina (and that was after Freeza's power was decimated because of the Genkidama).
Mecha Freeza's power was stated to be a fraction of his power in Namek, and his performance against Trunks was comparable to his father while transformed so even Piccolo or Vegeta would have been able to kill him if they tried.

Regards!

This is by far the dumbest post you made.

- The Daizenshuu guides were co-written by several folks along with Toriyama (obviously). You'd have to be extremely slow not to realize that.

The actual manga and anime never mentions ANY multiplier of any number for SSJ, so the second part of your argument completely fails.

- Because Freeza a was in severe pain after getting cut by his disk and was already rapidly losing power due to low stamina from his full form. Logic

Cell was partly fatigued from his fight with Goku (and he holding back against Goku in the first place). So your Cell agrument fails.

- Again, Freeza loses strength because his 100% form has bad stamina and rapidly drains power, nothing there about injuries. The only one using mental gymnastics and living in denial is you.

Post a scan from the manga or a clip from the anime of Freeza claiming to lose power from damage. Oh wait, you can't lmao.

- You just contradicted yourself. If SSJ1 is only 10x then it is weaker than KKx20. Simple math bro lmao. And you keep barking out the nonsense of Freeza getting nerfed from the Spirit Bomb without posting any scans or clips for proof.

- Goku overcame any negative side-effects of using Kaioken during his training to Namek. Goku was spaming KKx20 against Freeza without any damage to his body from it, so your headcanon explanation fails. So negative side-effects only came during the U6 arc because that was the 1st time in canon where he combines KK with a SSJ transformation, yet Goku overcame them again for the ToP.

"When Goku fought against the future androids, even going SSJ already make his illnes go wild so the KK was out of the equation from the begining.
After he recovered from the illnes, he already had decided that he would train the SSJ and improve it (which is what he did in the training in the RoSaT). After the RoSaT training the SSJ became a 30-40x mulitplier for him, so the KK was worse in every single aspect (less strength and much, much more damaging to the body -the SSJ didn't damage it at all, in fact-)."

This is pure headcanon nonsense lol. At no point does Goku ever even thinks about Kaioken after Namek arc. Transforming making his heart virus worse is also headcanon and is just a bad attempt to defend your headcanon.

- Mecha Freeza's power was NOWHERE stated to be a fraction of his Namek saga power, you are making stuff up. He was constantly stated to be STRONGER than when he was on Namek in the manga, anime and every official guide.

Its pure delusion to think Z Freeza was stronger any SSJ or Android.

[Hugo Boss]

Kaioshins getting knocked out while base Goku didn't is clear enough.

Anyway I actually don't even take into consideration this for Piccolo. Piccolo is clearly on par with base Goham during the ToP and since the latter is weaker than base Goku and Vegeta then so is Piccolo.

I don’t understand on what this opinion is based or why it should be seen as clear enough.

I think it’s safe to assume Base Goku is an ant compared to the Gods of Destruction. So, if Goku was only that much strong he would be knocked out by Rumsshi’s roar as well. Considering that he only obtains power compared to the gods in his SSG form, Goku probably would be knocked out even in his SS3 form at the point he fought Beerus the first time. After that point, his body should be able to sustain that attack, independently of what form he is using, like the Gods of Destruction did, just not as much as the angels, which apparently are at a different level from the gods.

The same principle can be applied to when he senses energy pretty close to him, as when he did with Goten and Trunks in Boo Arc. Their energy was enough to astonish Piccolo, but not Goku. And he was not using any transformation at that time. At least at that point, Piccolo was much stronger than Base Goku.

In the recruitment arc, Piccolo, Base Gohan and Base Goku were at about the same level, with Goku barely managing to react to Gohan and Piccolo’s strategy.

[MechaTrunks]

This is by far the dumbest post you made.

- The Daizenshuu guides were co-written by several folks along with Toriyama (obviously). You'd have to be extremely slow not to realize that.

Since Toriyama is retconning what's said in the guides, it's at least obvious that he didn't write the 50x SSJ multiplier thing.
Are you forgetting that the interview where Toriyama says the 50x for the SSJ form was exaggerated is also from a guide? So a guide contradicts a guide but everything is written by Toriyama?
That's stupid.

- Because Freeza a was in severe pain after getting cut by his disk and was already rapidly losing power due to low stamina from his full form. Logic

Lack of stamina is what made Freezer unable to even fly just seconds after he was actually flying? You have now a pain analyser that allows you to know that the Genkidama was painless to him?
Logic!

Cell was partly fatigued from his fight with Goku (and he holding back against Goku in the first place). So your Cell agrument fails.

Oh so then Freeza was also injured because he was also holding back against Goku when he was inured by the Genkidama (only fighting at 50% his maximum strength). So my Cell argument wins again.

- Again, Freeza loses strength because his 100% form has bad stamina and rapidly drains power, nothing there about injuries. The only one using mental gymnastics and living in denial is you.

So why does Freeza mentions "being stuck in the explosion" as what will make him lose more strength? And how could Freezer speak about a stamina problem that he still wasn't aware of (that's why Goku explains it to him at chapter 325)?
Nothing there about the injuries just because you say so? You wanted a quote of Freezer saying that his power had decreased and I have provided not one, but TWO (one just after the Genkidama, before any 100% and stamina excuses make any sense).
I can't imagine how hard it was for your parents to make you understand that Noel wasn't real!

- You just contradicted yourself. If SSJ1 is only 10x then it is weaker than KKx20. Simple math bro lmao. And you keep barking out the nonsense of Freeza getting nerfed from the Spirit Bomb without posting any scans or clips for proof.

Namek Goku SSJ1 was a 10x, that's what I said. In nowhere I said that this 10x couldn't be improved (it could).
And every single character gets weaker after being injured, it's you the one that should prove that this wasn't the case for Freezer despite Toriyama saying it was.

- Goku overcame any negative side-effects of using Kaioken during his training to Namek. Goku was spaming KKx20 against Freeza without any damage to his body from it, so your headcanon explanation fails.

Goku only used the KKx20 against Freeza ONCE (check your definition of spaming something) and his power fell off a cliff afterwards.
The KK being damaging to the body is established from chapter 1 since the technique is presented so...

This is pure headcanon nonsense lol. At no point does Goku ever even thinks about Kaioken after Namek arc. Transforming making his heart virus worse is also headcanon and is just a bad attempt to defend your headcanon.

Transforming making his heart virus worse is stated by Vegeta and the you are the one with a pain analyser speaking of headcanons while asserting with confidence what Goku was thinking. I mean, it's comical, seriously.

- Mecha Freeza's power was NOWHERE stated to be a fraction of his Namek saga power

Except for Gohan saying that Mecha's power is "nothing" compared to namek Freeza when Yamcha asks him about it, yeah, nothing is said.
It's just a shame that this dialogue exists, don't you think?

Regards!

[Sadala Elite]

This is by far the dumbest post you made.

- The Daizenshuu guides were co-written by several folks along with Toriyama (obviously). You'd have to be extremely slow not to realize that.

Since Toriyama is retconning what's said in the guides, it's at least obvious that he didn't write the 50x SSJ multiplier thing.
Are you forgetting that the interview where Toriyama says the 50x for the SSJ form was exaggerated is also from a guide? So a guide contradicts a guide but everything is written by Toriyama?
That's stupid.

- Because Freeza a was in severe pain after getting cut by his disk and was already rapidly losing power due to low stamina from his full form. Logic

Lack of stamina is what made Freezer unable to even fly just seconds after he was actually flying? You have now a pain analyser that allows you to know that the Genkidama was painless to him?
Logic!

Cell was partly fatigued from his fight with Goku (and he holding back against Goku in the first place). So your Cell agrument fails.

Oh so then Freeza was also injured because he was also holding back against Goku when he was inured by the Genkidama (only fighting at 50% his maximum strength). So my Cell argument wins again.

- Again, Freeza loses strength because his 100% form has bad stamina and rapidly drains power, nothing there about injuries. The only one using mental gymnastics and living in denial is you.

So why does Freeza mentions "being stuck in the explosion" as what will make him lose more strength? And how could Freezer speak about a stamina problem that he still wasn't aware of (that's why Goku explains it to him at chapter 325)?
Nothing there about the injuries just because you say so? You wanted a quote of Freezer saying that his power had decreased and I have provided not one, but TWO (one just after the Genkidama, before any 100% and stamina excuses make any sense).
I can't imagine how hard it was for your parents to make you understand that Noel wasn't real!

- You just contradicted yourself. If SSJ1 is only 10x then it is weaker than KKx20. Simple math bro lmao. And you keep barking out the nonsense of Freeza getting nerfed from the Spirit Bomb without posting any scans or clips for proof.

Namek Goku SSJ1 was a 10x, that's what I said. In nowhere I said that this 10x couldn't be improved (it could).
And every single character gets weaker after being injured, it's you the one that should prove that this wasn't the case for Freezer despite Toriyama saying it was.

- Goku overcame any negative side-effects of using Kaioken during his training to Namek. Goku was spaming KKx20 against Freeza without any damage to his body from it, so your headcanon explanation fails.

Goku only used the KKx20 against Freeza ONCE (check your definition of spaming something) and his power fell off a cliff afterwards.
The KK being damaging to the body is established from chapter 1 since the technique is presented so...

This is pure headcanon nonsense lol. At no point does Goku ever even thinks about Kaioken after Namek arc. Transforming making his heart virus worse is also headcanon and is just a bad attempt to defend your headcanon.

Transforming making his heart virus worse is stated by Vegeta and the you are the one with a pain analyser speaking of headcanons while asserting with confidence what Goku was thinking. I mean, it's comical, seriously.

- Mecha Freeza's power was NOWHERE stated to be a fraction of his Namek saga power

Except for Gohan saying that Mecha's power is "nothing" compared to namek Freeza when Yamcha asks him about it, yeah, nothing is said.
It's just a shame that this dialogue exists, don't you think?

Regards!

You just made more stupid and delusional arguments lmao.

- Still in denial about the guides I see. Toriyama approved the guides whether you like it or not, which means he approvals SSJ1 is 50x because he never told his co-writers to change it (logic).

- Goku's energy was what made Freeza fly again, you said it yourself lmao.

- Your Cell argument fails because Freeza barely used any real effort against Goku before going 50%, while Cell when suppressed actually used muched of his stamina and effort against Goku. Logic

- Freeza didnt even believe that he could survive a planet explosion, regardless of his power level. He was just as surprised at surviving Namek as the audience. So to use that as evidence for your headcanon is stupid.

And you still havent posted any manga scans or anime clips lmao.

- Where did Toriyama say that was the case for Freeza (despite his race's durability)? Show your source.

Transformations. and their multipliers DON'T change, the only thing that changes is the user's base form. And nowhere in the story is any form of SSJ1 ever implied to be weaker than KKx20

- Goku did NOT experience any body damage from using KKx20 on Namek (his muscles didn't even swell up), thanks to his training on the ship to Namek (this was clearly shown in the series, stop being in denial). He didn't experience any body damage from it in the ToP either.

Goku used KKx20 multiple times against Freeza on Namek, this was clearly shown and even stated by King Kai when Tien mentioned it as an option.

- Post a scan or clip. And either way, it you never shown any proof of Goku ever even mentioning Kaioken again in the rest of Z or even GT. If Kaioken was stronger than SSJ1 then Goku would have used it against A19 instead of SSJ1 (logic)

- That's because Mecha Freeza was suppressed when he 1st landed on Earth (until Trunks appears).
Think about it. If Mecha Freeza was weaker than Namek Saga Freeza then he would have NEVER considered coming to Earth for a rematch against SSJ1 Goku nor Kaioken Goku (logic). Thats just one reason why your headcanon is dumb.

[ZombieVito]

In the recruitment arc, Piccolo, Base Gohan and Base Goku were at about the same level, with Goku barely managing to react to Gohan and Piccolo’s strategy.

Not really. Gohan can't be on par with base Goku duting the tag team match since SS2 Goku > Ultimate Gohan. Ultimate is not a weaker transformation than SS2. It's always been stronger than SS3 at minimum.

Gohan gets a massive power up during his solo fight with Goku and catches up to Piccolo in base but both of them are still weaker than base Goku because of the above.

[MechaTrunks]

It seems that it's time for another reading comprehension masterclass:

You just made more stupid and delusional arguments lmao.

- Still in denial about the guides I see. Toriyama approved the guides whether you like it or not, which means he approvals SSJ1 is 50x because he never told his co-writers to change it (logic).

This is what Toriyama SAID:

Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

The bloded parts of the quote are the crucial ones:
It was considered 50-fold, but that was an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is a 10-fold change.

Now, since maybe this is still too difficult, let's invert the order of the sentences so they become more understandable to you:

My feeling as the creator is a 10-fold change. It was considered 50-fold, but that was an exaggeration.

See? If arranged like that and simplified even you should be able to understand that:
1. Toriyama never considered the 50-fold increase for SSJ Namek Goku because by saying "it was considered" he is excluding himself.
2. Toriyama drew that fight with a 10x increase for SSJ Goku in mind.

That's what he says, and no amount of reality spinning will change that fact. You want to believe that he wrote those guides and that he interviewed himself? Ok, be my guest.
But the part where it was said that the SSJ was a 50x multiplier clearly wasn't written by him because he clearly tells us that it wasn't him who thought the SSJ was a 50x multiplier.

That's why he adds "my feeling as the creator is" and then explains his vision on the series (the 10-fold increase).

I sincerely don't want to adress any other point because first you need to learn reading comprehension, but this one I can't resist because
Another thing you could learn is to not contradict yourself from message to message.

On a more serious matter:

There is never a moment in the Freeza fight where it's even implied that he's gotten weaker, in fact it's quite the contrary, everything after implies that Freeza, and Goku are stronger than ever before.

On that, I disagree.
One of the first things Freeza says after surviving the Genkidama (besides him being nearly killed) was "even badly injured I can still kill you all!", already implying that his strength took a serious hit.
The other occasion is after he defeats Goku's KameHame Ha, he says: "I have to leave the planet quickly, if I'm stuck in the explosion I'll lose even more strength".

Toriyama was aware that this was the final round of the fight and that it was the SSJ introduction to the readers so it had to be epic as fuck.
He didn't make of that fact a central point of the fight, he simply insinuated it and since it's a basic rule of the series (it happens in every single fight) he left it for granted.
Everytime Goku speaks of Freeza's peak power, he speaks it in relation to what Freeza can do at the moment.

Goku states upon Freeza powering up to 100% "I finally get to see Freeza at his fullest" Goku would never make such a statement if Freeza was weaker than previous.

He's speaking as a warrior. The state in which they reach that point of the battle has been a consequence of the battle itself.
He wanted to see Freeza going all out for the first time -not just in terms of strength-, how he would be as a fighter (Freeza had been playing the whole time, but turned to be a coward when he faced someone that could oppose him -logic considering that was the 1st time in his life-).

He also says that he wants to check out the most powerful guy in the universal at full power when Kaio tells him to finish Freeza during his power up.

Let's not forget that this is the same Goku that nearly killed Freeza when Freeza was only at 50% of his strength and with a cheap attack while Freeza was distracted.
He says that he wants to destroy Freeza when he's at his full potential because he could now do it and he wanted to fight. But that full potential, by context, was nerfed by Freeza's injuries.
Yes, Toriyama wasn't very straightforward with that part of the fight, but that's because it would've rested epicness to those chapters.
If suddenly everyone and his mother started to emphathise how weakened Freeza was in comparison, the fight wouldn't have been as enjoyable.

But none of what Goku says contradicts Freeza losing strength, because Freeza is the first one to speak of "full power" even when he also says that his power has decreased. "Full power" in that context is relative, it just means "we're gona give all we've got in the fight".

Regards!

[Hugo Boss]

[...] Gohan can't be on par with base Goku during the tag team match since SS2 Goku > Ultimate Gohan. Ultimate is not a weaker transformation than SS2. It's always been stronger than SS3 at minimum.

Gohan gets a massive power up during his solo fight with Goku and catches up to Piccolo in base but both of them are still weaker than base Goku because of the above.

I’m talking particularly about the first portion of the fight, in which they were all leveled, with the exception of Tenshinhan.

Gohan’s full powered form doesn’t have anything to do with Super Saiyan, it just reveals his true strength. As soon as he adapted to his new power Gohan rivaled SSB.

[Sora Saiyan]

There is never a moment in the Freeza fight where it's even implied that he's gotten weaker, in fact it's quite the contrary, everything after implies that Freeza, and Goku are stronger than ever before.

On that, I disagree.
One of the first things Freeza says after surviving the Genkidama (besides him being nearly killed) was "even badly injured I can still kill you all!", already implying that his strength took a serious hit.
The other occasion is after he defeats Goku's KameHame Ha, he says: "I have to leave the planet quickly, if I'm stuck in the explosion I'll lose even more strength".

Yeah because as I mentioned in my previous post, Goku literally states that Freeza can't use his full power for long anymore because of the battle damage his body has received which is why he was so reluctant to power up to full.. "why go to your full power now..? Maybe because your body can't withstand it for long anymore?"That dialogue confirms the extent of Freezas damage, and that was his body couldn't handle the strain of his full power for basically anytime at all anymore. So of course he would've been dropping in power by the stage that you mentioned. We also see him huffing and puffing prior to the scene you mentioned as his true power already started to take it's strain on his battle worn body. Goku never mentions that Freeza is weaker, just his body can't handle the strain, again, which Freezas reaction confirms.

Toriyama was aware that this was the final round of the fight and that it was the SSJ introduction to the readers so it had to be epic as fuck.
He didn't make of that fact a central point of the fight, he simply insinuated it and since it's a basic rule of the series (it happens in every single fight) he left it for granted.
Everytime Goku speaks of Freeza's peak power, he speaks it in relation to what Freeza can do at the moment.

I'm not involving headcanon, or anything out of universe in this debate as I said previously, so I'm keeping it strictly in universe here. Freeza literally says "it's time to see my full power revealed", the 'it's time' part implies it's greater than what he had shown previously, as its now time to reveal his full power, where as before he didn't reveal a power matching that judging by that statement.

Goku states upon Freeza powering up to 100% "I finally get to see Freeza at his fullest" Goku would never make such a statement if Freeza was weaker than previous.

He's speaking as a warrior. The state in which they reach that point of the battle has been a consequence of the battle itself.
He wanted to see Freeza going all out for the first time -not just in terms of strength-, how he would be as a fighter (Freeza had been playing the whole time, but turned to be a coward when he faced someone that could oppose him -logic considering that was the 1st time in his life-).

This is headcanon. When Kaio speaks to him immediately before this Goku states that "I mean to check out the most powerful guy in the universe at full power" immediately following that up with a conversation with Freeza where he states "I'm waiting for you to reach full power Freeza. I want to beat you while you're at your best.. so you'll have no regrets as a warrior"
Goku would never live that down if all of this was a lie, straight up claiming that Freeza was at his best when he wasn't.. He can sense power, and if Freeza was weakened Goku would bring that up at a later point as to why he needs to keep training, but it doesn't matter, Goku wouldn't make such a bold faced lie multiple times.

He also says that he wants to check out the most powerful guy in the universal at full power when Kaio tells him to finish Freeza during his power up.

Let's not forget that this is the same Goku that nearly killed Freeza when Freeza was only at 50% of his strength and with a cheap attack while Freeza was distracted.
He says that he wants to destroy Freeza when he's at his full potential because he could now do it and he wanted to fight. But that full potential, by context, was nerfed by Freeza's injuries.
Yes, Toriyama wasn't very straightforward with that part of the fight, but that's because it would've rested epicness to those chapters.
If suddenly everyone and his mother started to emphathise how weakened Freeza was in comparison, the fight wouldn't have been as enjoyable.

Firstly Goku exhausted all possible options against Freeza at that point you mentioned, it was his absolute final resort. Once he becomes a SSJ he's an entirely different animal, and Freeza also can't believe how strong Goku had become which Freeza mentions many times throughout the fight. Goku would never make such statements knowing that he's lying to himself whenever he's saying such, and Toriyama isn't in the business of straight up butchering his characters like that.
Goku saying he is going to beat somebody at their best is entirely different to what you're saying, especially when coupled with about ten different statements saying something which is the opposite of what you're saying, and a statement which mentions what the damage had done to Freezas body, which is that he can't cope with the strain of his true power for very long at all now, not that his ki had dropped.
Never forget that Goku tells Freeza to go off and learn some new attacks before challenging him again, and he straight up says the he's shredded Freezas pride because he surpasses him. He then tells Freeza to leave and cower some place. If this Freeza was actually stronger than Goku he would never do that. Goku would not trust leaving Freeza alive as was proven by the Genki Dama, the only reason he resorts to that attack is because Goku states that Freeza is too much of a threat to the universe so he has to stop him here.

Now going back to the point where Goku tells Freeza to go and get his strength back and learn some new attacks before challenging again. We know this is a Goku that has absolute confidence over Freeza here, because he knows he surpasses him. When compared to the Goku that decided to use the Genki Dama it's like comparing apples and oranges. That Goku knew he had to stop Freeza because he was a threat to the universe and he couldn't stop him, this Goku knows he's got Freezas number if he ever shows his face again.

[ZombieVito]

I’m talking particularly about the first portion of the fight, in which they were all leveled, with the exception of Tenshinhan.

Gohan’s full powered form doesn’t have anything to do with Super Saiyan, it just reveals his true strength. As soon as he adapted to his new power Gohan rivaled SSB.

I already explained why they weren't leveled on the tag team match.

Ultimate is a transformation and it can't be weaker than SS2.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I’m talking particularly about the first portion of the fight, in which they were all leveled, with the exception of Tenshinhan.

Gohan’s full powered form doesn’t have anything to do with Super Saiyan, it just reveals his true strength. As soon as he adapted to his new power Gohan rivaled SSB.

I already explained why they weren't leveled on the tag team match.

Ultimate is a transformation and it can't be weaker than SS2.

I always interpreted that scene more as Gohan releasing more of Ultimate's power as the fight progressed, whether it be due to him holding back its full power or actually increasing its strength permanently.

[ZombieVito]

I’m talking particularly about the first portion of the fight, in which they were all leveled, with the exception of Tenshinhan.

Gohan’s full powered form doesn’t have anything to do with Super Saiyan, it just reveals his true strength. As soon as he adapted to his new power Gohan rivaled SSB.

I already explained why they weren't leveled on the tag team match.

Ultimate is a transformation and it can't be weaker than SS2.

I always interpreted that scene more as Gohan releasing more of Ultimate's power as the fight progressed, whether it be due to him holding back its full power or actually increasing its strength permanently.

I don't think Gohan was holding back on the tag team. It defeats the whole purpose of it and he feels disappointment afterwards so thats why he challanges Goku to 1 vs 1.

I interpret it as Gohan improving Ultimate's multiplier and himself in that fight.

[MechaTrunks]

Yeah because as I mentioned in my previous post, Goku literally states that Freeza can't use his full power for long anymore because of the battle damage his body has received which is why he was so reluctant to power up to full.. "why go to your full power now..? Maybe because your body can't withstand it for long anymore?"That dialogue confirms the extent of Freezas damage, and that was his body couldn't handle the strain of his full power for basically anytime at all anymore. So of course he would've been dropping in power by the stage that you mentioned. We also see him huffing and puffing prior to the scene you mentioned as his true power already started to take it's strain on his battle worn body. Goku never mentions that Freeza is weaker, just his body can't handle the strain, again, which Freezas reaction confirms.

Nope, what Goku says is (using the translation of this very page, but also checked with my catalan translated version of the manga):
-Goku: “Why are you using your full power now?...I know: it’s because when you use all of your power, your body itself can’t handle it.”

And afterwards, he also says:
- Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

The wounds affecting a fighter's stamina has never happened in the series. Of course, if the injuries are grave enough and the character's strength is reduced to 0, his stamina will also be 0, but we have Raditz as a prime example of someone being injured and very weakened while not being tired at all.

The stamina problem was always related to Freeza using 100% of his power and forcing his body (even the fact that his muscles increase in size is always an indicative that the body is being forced to unoptimal levels).

Furthermore, the quote after the Genkidama is very clear:
--Freeza: “Ev-even I thought I would die…I, the great Freeza, was pushed to the brink of death…[ ] Even having taken this damage, I can still easily defeat all of you!”

Even having taken this damage, I can still easily defeat all of you.

This sentence alone leaves no doubt. Toriyama doesn't need Freeza to directly state something like "my power has fallen a lot", this sentence says the exact same thing (it would make absolutely no sense that Freeza would speak in those terms without having lost any strength) and at that point the series has established a ton of times (since Raditz, in nearly every single fight) that becoming injured makes you weaker.

And last but not least, even if Freeza was aware that going 100% would probably force his body, he had never gone 100% before and he clearly didn't knew the extent of that problem.
When Goku explains to him the reason he quits, Freeza reacts surprised because he didn't know it (it happens to him again in RoF, when he doesn't realise that his power is falling until Goku tells him).
In other words, the Freeza that at chapter 323 says that he will leave quickly because his strength would decrease even more if he gets stuck in the explosion:
1. Gives being stuck in the explosion as the reason of losing strength. In the Genkidama, he was stuck in an explosion!
2. Isn't aware that his power is decreasing because Goku still hasn't told him it was already happening.

So nope, Freeza wasn't speaking of his stamina there, but about his strength.

I'm not involving headcanon, or anything out of universe in this debate as I said previously, so I'm keeping it strictly in universe here. Freeza literally says "it's time to see my full power revealed", the 'it's time' part implies it's greater than what he had shown previously, as its now time to reveal his full power, where as before he didn't reveal a power matching that judging by that statement.

It's my take on the scene and the reasons I think why Toriyama made it more criptic than in the majority of his other fights.
Of course, it will be headcanon in the same way that any opinion is headcanon -the stamina loss related to the injuries is also headcanon and I can't recall any other fight where it happened while I provided an example of someone very weakened but not tired at all and tons of examples of a fighter weakening as a result of being injured in a fight-.

Regarding the point you make:
1. Not even the fighters that can sense energy can grasp a sudden change in their Kis, much less Freeza that wasn't able to even feel kis.
The only thing Freeza knew at that point is that he was weakened (how much, he couldn't know in any way), not the extent of the power he lost.
2. Freeza was for the first time using his 100%, so in terms of his relative perception -the only thing he could know for sure- that was the moment he would use more of his power. I mean, if you take it in absolute terms, you're right, but those sentences can be perfectly justified if you take them as the characters speaking from their own POWs and always relative to what they know.
In fact, Freeza suddenly knowing the extent of his power would contradict what we know of the character and previous statements he made.

This is headcanon.

Every interpretation is headcanon, the difference is that we're given data in the Cell saga that points towards the untrained SSJ being at around 3.000.000 of strength, that every single character being injured in a fight loses power and that Freeza says that he has lost power. And if all that wasn't enough, we have Toriyama saying that he drew that scene with Goku SSJ being 10x Goku base.

I don't think my take on those dialogues is bad -it can totally be interpreted in the way I do- and since doing it in this way is coherent with those facts I think it explains much better what was being said in those scenes than your take on them.
Your interpretation could be right... if it wasn't because the hard facts point towards a different direction, that's what I mean.

When Kaio speaks to him immediately before this Goku states that "I mean to check out the most powerful guy in the universe at full power" immediately following that up with a conversation with Freeza where he states "I'm waiting for you to reach full power Freeza. I want to beat you while you're at your best.. so you'll have no regrets as a warrior"
Goku would never live that down if all of this was a lie

This is the very definition of headcanon, don't you think?
1. Goku lied to Ginyu saying he was much stronger while faking a power-up when he was using the KK to surpass him. I didn't see Goku very affected for not telling Ginyu that his 85.000 PL guess was in fact very close and that he had to resort to a special technique to power-up further than that.

2. As I said, Ki sensing is relative to one's perception, and characters can't react to sudden changes in their Kis until they somehow test them.
Both Goku and Freezer had undergone very sudden changes in their Kis (Freeza's Ki falling because of the Genkidama + SSJ beating and Goku's Ki also falling because of the GD and going from 0 to 100 afterwards because of the rage boost), so they could never know how strong they were in absolute terms.
Goku could only sense Freeza's Ki in relation to his own ki (we have tons of examples in the series of how this works).
So he knew he was stronger than 50% Freeza when he became SSJ, but he couldn't compare post-GD Freeza with pre-GD Freeza because his Ki also changed a lot during those events.
Freeza couldn't even sense Kis. It's obvious that they were speaking in relative terms of Freeza using "all his strength".

Once he becomes a SSJ he's an entirely different animal, and Freeza also can't believe how strong Goku had become which Freeza mentions many times throughout the fight. Goku would never make such statements knowing that he's lying to himself whenever he's saying such, and Toriyama isn't in the business of straight up butchering his characters like that.

Goku would only lie to himself if we use your interpretation where they speak in absolute terms.
But as I said, Goku was speaking as a warrior. Freeza was injured because of the fight, and from Goku's POW that would be the last time he would fight anyone as strong as Freeza (that's why he has merci and tries to not kill him 2 times -3 in fact considering that he attacked softly on purpose the last time-).
Goku couldn't know if Freeza's power had fallen a lot or not so he simply wanted to fight Freeza at his max as a SSJ.

Goku saying he is going to beat somebody at their best is entirely different to what you're saying, especially when coupled with about ten different statements saying something which is the opposite of what you're saying, and a statement which mentions what the damage had done to Freezas body, which is that he can't cope with the strain of his true power for very long at all now, not that his ki had dropped.

The injuries weren't a part of the equation, it doesn't make any sense for Goku to considere them at that moment. Freeza was only using 50% of his power and he waited because he wanted to fight him at 100%.
His 50% or 100% being much weaker is something that he couldn't even know.

Besides your statements were wrong, they never spoke of the injuries as the reason of the of stamina but simply the fact that Freeza had to force his body.

Never forget that Goku tells Freeza to go off and learn some new attacks before challenging him again, and he straight up says the he's shredded Freezas pride because he surpasses him.

Yeah because Goku was the winner, so he surpassed Freeza. Do you really think that Goku should have said "hey Freeza, you're strong but I had luck with my cheap attacks to defeat you" as if they were best buddies or something?
Goku won and Freeza lost, and Goku hated Freeza and wanted to hurt him and teach him humility.
I mean, had Goku forgiven Freeza and Freeza learned those "new attacks" and he would've encountered Golden Freeza waiting for him in the earth (that's how accurate Goku's guess was if we go with your take on it).

He then tells Freeza to leave and cower some place. If this Freeza was actually stronger than Goku he would never do that.

1. Goku didn't want to kill Freeza.
2. Goku couldn't know how strong or weak Freeza really was.
3. Goku told Vegeta to recover because he wanted to fight again. Had Vegeta done this instead of going to Namek, and 24.000 Vegeta would have found Goku in the hospital still recovering from his injuries and waiting for Karin to grow him some senzus.

Now going back to the point where Goku tells Freeza to go and get his strength back and learn some new attacks before challenging again. We know this is a Goku that has absolute confidence over Freeza here, because he knows he surpasses him.

As I've said, Goku had no scoutter. At the very best he may had been very confident in that, but he couldn't know it as a fact because he had no means to know it.
On the other hand, every fact points towards the opposite direction, even the author explaining the intention he had behind those scenes.

Facts > statemetns > interpretation of statements.

Statements in Dragon Ball are subjective and most of the times, very inaccurate (for different reasons). We usually get the whole picture through multiple statements and facts.
In your case, it's not even that those statements say what you say, they could be saying it, but as I explained, they can all be interpreted in a different way (the characters speaking in relative terms, which is what they usually do).

Regards!

[Sadala Elite]

It seems that it's time for another reading comprehension masterclass:

You just made more stupid and delusional arguments lmao.

- Still in denial about the guides I see. Toriyama approved the guides whether you like it or not, which means he approvals SSJ1 is 50x because he never told his co-writers to change it (logic).

This is what Toriyama SAID:

Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

The bloded parts of the quote are the crucial ones:
It was considered 50-fold, but that was an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is a 10-fold change.

Now, since maybe this is still too difficult, let's invert the order of the sentences so they become more understandable to you:

My feeling as the creator is a 10-fold change. It was considered 50-fold, but that was an exaggeration.

See? If arranged like that and simplified even you should be able to understand that:
1. Toriyama never considered the 50-fold increase for SSJ Namek Goku because by saying "it was considered" he is excluding himself.
2. Toriyama drew that fight with a 10x increase for SSJ Goku in mind.

That's what he says, and no amount of reality spinning will change that fact. You want to believe that he wrote those guides and that he interviewed himself? Ok, be my guest.
But the part where it was said that the SSJ was a 50x multiplier clearly wasn't written by him because he clearly tells us that it wasn't him who thought the SSJ was a 50x multiplier.

That's why he adds "my feeling as the creator is" and then explains his vision on the series (the 10-fold increase).

I sincerely don't want to adress any other point because first you need to learn reading comprehension, but this one I can't resist because
Another thing you could learn is to not contradict yourself from message to message.

On a more serious matter:

There is never a moment in the Freeza fight where it's even implied that he's gotten weaker, in fact it's quite the contrary, everything after implies that Freeza, and Goku are stronger than ever before.

On that, I disagree.
One of the first things Freeza says after surviving the Genkidama (besides him being nearly killed) was "even badly injured I can still kill you all!", already implying that his strength took a serious hit.
The other occasion is after he defeats Goku's KameHame Ha, he says: "I have to leave the planet quickly, if I'm stuck in the explosion I'll lose even more strength".

Toriyama was aware that this was the final round of the fight and that it was the SSJ introduction to the readers so it had to be epic as fuck.
He didn't make of that fact a central point of the fight, he simply insinuated it and since it's a basic rule of the series (it happens in every single fight) he left it for granted.
Everytime Goku speaks of Freeza's peak power, he speaks it in relation to what Freeza can do at the moment.

Goku states upon Freeza powering up to 100% "I finally get to see Freeza at his fullest" Goku would never make such a statement if Freeza was weaker than previous.

He's speaking as a warrior. The state in which they reach that point of the battle has been a consequence of the battle itself.
He wanted to see Freeza going all out for the first time -not just in terms of strength-, how he would be as a fighter (Freeza had been playing the whole time, but turned to be a coward when he faced someone that could oppose him -logic considering that was the 1st time in his life-).

He also says that he wants to check out the most powerful guy in the universal at full power when Kaio tells him to finish Freeza during his power up.

Let's not forget that this is the same Goku that nearly killed Freeza when Freeza was only at 50% of his strength and with a cheap attack while Freeza was distracted.
He says that he wants to destroy Freeza when he's at his full potential because he could now do it and he wanted to fight. But that full potential, by context, was nerfed by Freeza's injuries.
Yes, Toriyama wasn't very straightforward with that part of the fight, but that's because it would've rested epicness to those chapters.
If suddenly everyone and his mother started to emphathise how weakened Freeza was in comparison, the fight wouldn't have been as enjoyable.

But none of what Goku says contradicts Freeza losing strength, because Freeza is the first one to speak of "full power" even when he also says that his power has decreased. "Full power" in that context is relative, it just means "we're gona give all we've got in the fight".

Regards!

- Its funny how you keep dodging the simple fact that Toriyama approved of the guides. Which means that he approved of SSJ1 being 50x for now on. Of he didn't then all of these guides would say SSJ1 is 10x. Logic

You cant deny reality in favor for baseless headcanon forever lol.

- You still never gave any scans or clip of Freeza being nerfed be the spirit bomb.

- You still never gave any scan or clip of the Androids being weaker than Z Freeza lmao.

- You still haven't gave any proof of Kaioken being stronger than SSJ1.

[Hugo Boss]

I’m talking particularly about the first portion of the fight, in which they were all leveled, with the exception of Tenshinhan.

Gohan’s full powered form doesn’t have anything to do with Super Saiyan, it just reveals his true strength. As soon as he adapted to his new power Gohan rivaled SSB.

I already explained why they weren't leveled on the tag team match.

Ultimate is a transformation and it can't be weaker than SS2.

Actually, your explanation is resumed to comparing “Ultimate” with SS2, as if it has anything to do with what happened in the first portion of the fight. (?) Anyway, is there any reason to assume Goku was stronger than Gohan while they were fighting until Goku used kaioken?! I’m confused.

By the way, this discussion about Super Saiyan multiplier is making this thread very difficult to keep up. Can you continue it somewhere else?

[ZombieVito]

I’m talking particularly about the first portion of the fight, in which they were all leveled, with the exception of Tenshinhan.

Gohan’s full powered form doesn’t have anything to do with Super Saiyan, it just reveals his true strength. As soon as he adapted to his new power Gohan rivaled SSB.

I already explained why they weren't leveled on the tag team match.

Ultimate is a transformation and it can't be weaker than SS2.

Actually, your explanation is resumed to comparing “Ultimate” with SS2, as if it has anything to do with what happened in the first portion of the fight. (?) Anyway, is there any reason to assume Goku was stronger than Gohan while they were fighting until Goku used kaioken?! I’m confused.

Well yeah.

If SS2 Goku >= Ultimate Gohan then base Gohan can't be on par with base Goku since Ultimate form >> Super Saiyan 2.

So this confirms base Gohan is decently weaker than base Goku in the tag team match.

[Hugo Boss]

If SS2 Goku >= Ultimate Gohan then base Gohan can't be on par with base Goku since Ultimate form >> Super Saiyan 2.

So this confirms base Gohan is decently weaker than base Goku in the tag team match.

The strength comparison between “Ultimate” and SS2 doesn’t change what happened between Base Goku and Base Gohan. Tenshinhan stated none of them were holding back and they tacitly agree. If anything this only reinforces “Ultimate” doesn’t have fixed multiplier or level. Not that this was ever implied anyway. Also, when was SS2 Goku stronger than Ultimate?! At first, they started at a similar level, then Gohan revealed that he was about as strong as Super Saiyan Blue.

[ZombieVito]

The strength comparison between “Ultimate” and SS2 doesn’t change what happened between Base Goku and Base Gohan. Tenshinhan stated none of them were holding back and they tacitly agree. If anything this only reinforces “Ultimate” doesn’t have fixed multiplier or level. Not that this was ever implied anyway. Also, when was SS2 Goku stronger than Ultimate?! At first, they started at a similar level, then Gohan revealed that he was about as strong as Super Saiyan Blue.

Gohan states at the beginning of their fight that Ultimate was his current full power and SS2 Goku outperformed him. Gohan then get's stronger and Goku turns Blue.

Ultimate form having a smaller multiplier than SS2 makes no sense.

[Sora Saiyan]

I can't be bothered to continue with this since you keep using one line of dialogue when countless others contradict it..so this has gotta be for the last time now, the threads getting screwed up by this.


This is just a quick responses no point in covering everything I've covered previously.
Firstly, yeah I checked the strength checker and the Viz version messed that up, my bad. But even so Freezas reaction to Goku saying that confirms that he knows his max power will drain him bad.
Let's not forget that Gohan also says that Freezas Ki is getting bigger AGAIN, when Freeza starts to reveal his true power. Also instead of saying that Goku ki sensing is so awful that he can't tell where Freezas power sits, especially when we're talking about a power difference of many multiples, don't forget that this is the Goku that basically knew immediately upon Freeza stating that he could beat him with half his power that he wasn't bluffing before any blow was thrown (where are you getting that Goku needs a scouter to accurately track a fighters power at this stage?). I don't need to prove Goku sensing prowess, we know how good he is at this point in the series. He doesn't know fighters hidden power all that well, but he can feel how powerful a ki is, and if it's weaker than anything shown prior. The goal post don't move with his current power, if Goku senses somebody in base and then as a SSJ his opinion wouldn't change from when he made it in base. I've already mentioned Goku stating that he was going to fight Freeza when Freeza was at his best (and not his best at that moment as the conversation with Kaio then followed up immediately with Goku talking to Freeza doesn't imply that in the slightest), so no point in trudging all of that up.

Also the KK example with Goku fighting Ginyu isn't headcanon, that's Gokus character. He's always factored KK into hs true power, same with the SSJ transformations. That's just Goku. I'm referring to a Headcanon where mental gymnastics are used to fit a loose piece of dialogue when countless things contradict it later, and also trying to assume what a character thinking through all of this, especially when there's never been an instance of the character acting that way. Generally earlier statements can't be used as proof of something when there's straight up contradictions shown later. No dialogue refers to Freezas max at the time, Goku straight up calls it his best, and later says that he surpasses Freeza. I don't need to go back over all that.
Also the Vegeta example is plain bad, Goku knows he can defeat Vegeta, he knew nothing of zenkais. So Vegeta coming back like that made no sense to Goku. And even though Goku was stronger he knew what he was asking was wrong when it came to Vegeta. With Freeza there was never a hint of what he was doing was wrong in his head. He was torturing Freeza. He also never straight up tells Vegeta that he's surpassed him to inflame the situation, Goku actually says that to Freezas face, if anything he's making Freeza want to come out and look for revenge even more. We also see him telling Freeza to get his strength back and learn some new attacks once he tries to conclude the fight. Goku isn't stupid, he'd know that Freeza would destroy everybody he cares about if he wasn't strong enough.

The Toriyama thing is mega awkward since it makes no sense either way. And TBF the guide we know he kept it in, is a guide where he had an absolute massive amount of input, so he could've changed it if he really saw fit.
The issue also lies with what Toriyama deemed as "only a 10 fold change from what it was up to that point". Did he forget about the invisible Kaioken, or just factor it into Gokus standard power as he was constantly using that power? Thus he instead pictured SSJ as a 10x increase on top of that? Thats very much in the realms of possibility, and I guess if that was the case a 50x increase on top of that would be absurd. It still doesnt make sense, but neither does the other. And honestly with all the feats and statements it was greater than 10x kaioken by many times, so maybe that's what he had has is intention for just that fight. It makes sense since the invisible KK was interchangable with Gokus power at that stage. It was his permanent state in that fight when it got serious until he used the KKx20 and blew all his power. Anything that comes from Toriyama after the originals mangas run will be questionable. The best thing to do is read the series for what his intention may have been, and since he was putting words to these characters it's that SSJ definitely wasn't weaker than any KK shown prior.

Anyway, to end this.
Chapter 329.
Cold: A small planet, wouldn't it be better if you wiped it out in one shot.
Freeza: That wouldn't satisfy me, I want to make Goku well acquainted with my powered up self

Since you're fixated on taking Freezas one throw away line of dialogue that doesn't actually confirm that his ki weakened (especially since it's constantly confirmed that his ki didn't decrease by every character present who can sense ki), we have Freeza himself stating that he's now stronger than he used to be

Chapter 330 page 9.7
Yamaha: So this guy called Freeza, has such terrible ab... absurdly large ki?
Gohan: This isn't it, he gets much stronger.

Confirming that Trunks defeated Freeza before he got to full power.. which was obvious, we know Freeza wouldn't start with his true power since he's never shown such. We know Goku defeated this Freeza too, and he never attacks a character by surprise, so it's safe to say Goku kept true on his promise when he told Freeza to get his strength back and learn some new attacks before they fight again.

Chapter 330 page 13
Cold: The earthlings don't matter, but the SSJ alone we must absolutely exterminate, by any means. The one who holds the greatest power in the universe must without a doubt be our clan.
Freeza: We can definitely defeat him if we go at him together, Papa. And I've powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone.

Here Freeza again confirming that he's powered up, and also confirming that with his new found power he only thinks that he probably could do it alone (we know he's wrong about that, since we know Goku defeats them in the future ) That part 100% confirms that Freeza was weaker than Goku prior to receiving this power up since there's still a level of uncertainty about beating him alone even though he's powered up.

We also have Piccolo confirming that Vegeta surpasses Goku.
After Vegeta leave to fight 17 and 18.
Piccolo: "...But..It seems that Vegeta really has obtained power surpassing Goku now that he's become a Super Saiyan..He just might be able to take care of them like he says."
If SSJ was only a 10x increase it means that Vegeta would be more than 2x greater than Goku at this point since surpassing Goku would also refer to KKx20 aswell. A 2 fold increase in DB has always been monumental, and Vegeta would die instantly against Goku if such a gap existed, so he couldn't surpass him until he had overcome such a gap. Nothing points to Vegeta just being that much stronger than a healthy SSJ Goku at this point from all of the dialogue and feats.. pretty much everything points to them being in the same ballpark, but Vegeta having the slight edge on Goku when they're both SSJs. As long as Gokus healthy that is.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The strength comparison between “Ultimate” and SS2 doesn’t change what happened between Base Goku and Base Gohan. Tenshinhan stated none of them were holding back and they tacitly agree. If anything this only reinforces “Ultimate” doesn’t have fixed multiplier or level. Not that this was ever implied anyway. Also, when was SS2 Goku stronger than Ultimate?! At first, they started at a similar level, then Gohan revealed that he was about as strong as Super Saiyan Blue.

Gohan states at the beginning of their fight that Ultimate was his current full power and SS2 Goku outperformed him. Gohan then get's stronger and Goku turns Blue.

Ultimate form having a smaller multiplier than SS2 makes no sense.

Goku does mention that Gohan isn't using SS2 himself, to which Gohan responds that he wants to do it differently. Presumably, SS2 Gohan would've been sufficient, but perhaps he was doing it in Ultimate in order to specifically unlock its full potential.

Unlike the Super Saiyan forms, the Ultimate state doesn't have to have a set multiplier since it's based on pulling out potential. It could be as simple as Gohan needing to unlock its further power past SS2 once he worked his regular forms up to match Goku's level in the same forms.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku does mention that Gohan isn't using SS2 himself, to which Gohan responds that he wants to do it differently. Presumably, SS2 Gohan would've been sufficient, but perhaps he was doing it in Ultimate in order to specifically unlock its full potential.

Unlike the Super Saiyan forms, the Ultimate state doesn't have to have a set multiplier since it's based on pulling out potential. It could be as simple as Gohan needing to unlock its further power past SS2 once he worked his regular forms up to match Goku's level in the same forms.

To add to this. In the original dialogue, Gohan does use the English “full power” in his line, but subtext implies this is not literally his full power, just the official name Toei uses to refer to “ultimate”, since “ultimate” is a fan-made name we use to refer to that form. Actually, his literal full power is when he uses Japanese “zen ryoku”, which he uses against Super Saiyan Blue.