Could A Fusion Of Bardock & King Vegeta Have Defeated Freeza?

[theherodjl]

I don't understand the complaint on the basis that feats contradict their claims. Gogeta began fighting where SSB Goku left off in a movie where base Goku fought Wrathful Broly after SSG Vegeta. And the latter was tapped out to ask for a senzu bean before he joined Goku in SSB form. So what gives? Is it really fair to judge a fusion statement based on base Kefla surpassing a tired SSG Goku only? Come on.

If statements are not as accurate in depicting the nature of things as the actual feats are, such statements are not 100% reliable.

[Desassina]

If statements are not as accurate in depicting the nature of things as the actual feats are, such statements are not 100% reliable.

Who defined this rule? Could it not be the other way around? If a character says that he's been holding back, then his poor performance is suddenly justified, right after everyone was quick to jump the gun. I just think that we need to improve our notions with regards to power. More judgements built upon judgements instead of rules. You want to construct a pyramid one block at a time. Not to argue about its base for eternity.

[theherodjl]

Who defined this rule? Could it not be the other way around? If a character says that he's been holding back, then his poor performance is suddenly justified, right after everyone was quick to jump the gun. I just think that we need to improve our notions with regards to power. More judgements built on judgements instead of rules. You want to construct a pyramid one block at a time. Not to argue about its base for eternity.

Vados' statement, a supposed "rule" on fusion's power that some people take too seriously, simply isn't that reliable when four different Saiyan fusions that we've seen weren't a mere "tens of times" greater than their individual fusees. Its like saying that Namek Freeza was tens of times stronger than Raditz. That's not totally incorrect...but its obviously not describing the differences in their powers as well as it could.

[Grimlock]

The addition part is because its 2 people fusing.

So it literally comes from nowhere and it's more of a headcanon? Alright, good to know.

You could leave it out if you really wanted to.

Which is the right thing to do since no official statement supports this "addition" as part of the equation.

The dance is supposed to require the fighters to match power anyways, so you would get the same answer.

Not really. Yes, in order to perform the Metamoru fusion, the fusees must match their powers, but we don't have any word if that requirement affects the result.

And how is it inconceivable? Super is all over the place with power scaling.

It sure is all over the place, but mathematics isn't.

"Tens of times" ranges from x10 up to x99. You know what does that? The Super Saiyan multiplier. Super Saiyan increases the power "tens of times" with its x50 multiplier. How can Kafla surpass Super Saiyan God Goku with her power "tens of times" increased in relation to their fusees despite this minuscule multiplier? That is why it is inconceivable.

And if that were the case, then Caulifla and Kale should have just continued to fight Goku separately while using the Super Saiyan 2 form, which is stronger than "tens of times", because Super Saiyan 2's multiplier is x100. "100" and above is "hundreds of times".

And its not like power level x power level perfectly fits either.

Actually, the more we discuss this, the more I see how "A power level x B power level" makes much more sense than any baseless (and official but nonsensical) statements I've been seeing.

[Desassina]

Which is why "A plus B times 10 or more" is up for anyone to define. You just didn't pick the part that was correct about my post. I know that it's hard to separate a user's input from a collection of them through time. That is why I don't stick to rules, because they reveal how long somebody has been collecting these experiences, so I point to something in the story: it's easier and timeless.

As for multiplication, I never expressed myself about this, but it doesn't make sense. Goku and Vegeta might be equals at 1, for example, but to Beers they're 0.0001, so what do you get when you multiply them by each other? Some amount that is way lower than both entities. Increase them by a scale (a third number being multiplied) and that's what a sum increased by tens of times (10 to whatever limit) is supposed to express. Only more manageable.

[theherodjl]

Which is why "A plus B times 10 or more" is up for anyone to define. You just didn't pick the part that was correct about my post. I know that it's hard to separate a user's input from a collection of them through time. That is why I don't stick to rules, because they reveal how long somebody has been collecting these experiences, so I point to something in the story: it's easier and timeless.

As for multiplication, I never expressed myself about this, but it doesn't make sense. Goku and Vegeta might be equals at 1, for example, but to Beers they're 0.0001, so what do you get when you multiply them by each other? Some amount that is way lower than both entities. Increase them by a scale (a third number being multiplied) and that's what a sum increased by tens of times (10 to whatever limit) is supposed to express. Only more manageable.

Just stating "or more" right beside "tens of times" is still an implication that the numbers aren't going to be significantly high as they actually might be, its pretty much just saying "10+" as though that undoubtedly defines a massive increase. Outright calling it "hundreds of times" & "thousands of times" gets the job done without leaving room for ambiguity. However, as I've stated before, the numbers can go as high as fusion can possibly take them and there has yet to be a concrete, numerical limit to fusion. Saying "tens of times" in the context of current Gogeta would be like saying that their base fusion is somewhere around SSJ & SSJ2 Goku & Vegeta. Gogeta's quite a bit higher than that.

If you shrink numbers down to such low figures, its not much of a wonder why they end up looking pretty weak. When you bring them up to whole numbers, it makes sense.

[Desassina]

You can say one hundred, two hundred, but find me a good word for 120, which is twelve tens, hence the base increase. Now you're just doing this out of spite. I'm done.

[theherodjl]

Ok, agree to disagree.

[dario03]

The addition part is because its 2 people fusing.

So it literally comes from nowhere and it's more of a headcanon? Alright, good to know.

You could leave it out if you really wanted to.

Which is the right thing to do since no official statement supports this "addition" as part of the equation.

The dance is supposed to require the fighters to match power anyways, so you would get the same answer.

Not really. Yes, in order to perform the Metamoru fusion, the fusees must match their powers, but we don't have any word if that requirement affects the result.

And how is it inconceivable? Super is all over the place with power scaling.

It sure is all over the place, but mathematics isn't.

"Tens of times" ranges from x10 up to x99. You know what does that? The Super Saiyan multiplier. Super Saiyan increases the power "tens of times" with its x50 multiplier. How can Kafla surpass Super Saiyan God Goku with her power "tens of times" increased in relation to their fusees despite this minuscule multiplier? That is why it is inconceivable.

And if that were the case, then Caulifla and Kale should have just continued to fight Goku separately while using the Super Saiyan 2 form, which is stronger than "tens of times", because Super Saiyan 2's multiplier is x100. "100" and above is "hundreds of times".

And its not like power level x power level perfectly fits either.

Actually, the more we discuss this, the more I see how "A power level x B power level" makes much more sense than any baseless (and official but nonsensical) statements I've been seeing.

So going by statements in the show and guides is baseless but going by a guides statement about a different form of fusion that was contradicted in a later show makes sense??? Seems like a pretty odd conclusion. Did you check the math from both points of view? You posts numbers to argue against the tens of times stronger but what about the numbers for literal power level times power level? What do you think the power levels of Kale, Caulifla, and Kefla are? And does that line up with other examples?

[SSJgogeto]

I don't think they can win, and actually I don't know if they can win even against Freeza in his first form.

If Bardock & Vegeta are both around the 10,000 mark of BP, they'd be about 500,000 as SSJs. However, their fusion would easily be multiple times higher than that as even base Saiyan fusions are far stronger than their individual, SSJ fusees. Freeza would need to transform so as to not be instantaneously killed on the spot.

Yeah, that makes sense. I was thinking more about Kibitoshin, but with saiyans we have this "rule".

[Grimlock]

So going by statements in the show and guides is baseless but going by a guides statement about a different form of fusion that was contradicted in a later show makes sense???

But you are not going by "statements in the show and guides". You are seemingly going solely by what Vados said while at the same time using a "formula" that was never stated in any official capacity. There is no such thing as "A + B x random number". And the problem is that it doesn't make sense Vados' line (if she said such thing, that is). As I showed you, "tens of times" does not provide great result. They would be better off continuing to fight separately as Super Saiyan 2, and as such, they would be stronger than base Kafla, who would merely increase their power "tens of times".

Also, we are not talking about different form of fusion, we're talking about Kafla and the Potara fusion right now, which is exactly the one the guide is referring to.

Between Kafla being merely "tens of times" stronger than Kale and Caulifla and Kafla being the result of Caulifla's power level multiplied by Kale's power level, the latter makes much more sense and is the information I'm going to stick with. You, of course, can consider the former if you want. All I can do is wish you good luck with an even more broken power scaling and explaining it to someone else.

[dario03]

So going by statements in the show and guides is baseless but going by a guides statement about a different form of fusion that was contradicted in a later show makes sense???

But you are not going by "statements in the show and guides". You are seemingly going solely by what Vados said while at the same time using a "formula" that was never stated in any official capacity. There is no such thing as "A + B x random number". And the problem is that it doesn't make sense Vados' line (if she said such thing, that is). As I showed you, "tens of times" does not provide great result. They would be better off continuing to fight separately as Super Saiyan 2, and as such, they would be stronger than base Kafla, who would merely increase their power "tens of times".

Also, we are not talking about different form of fusion, we're talking about Kafla and the Potara fusion right now, which is exactly the one the guide is referring to.

Between Kafla being merely "tens of times" stronger than Kale and Caulifla and Kafla being the result of Caulifla's power level multiplied by Kale's power level, the latter makes much more sense and is the information I'm going to stick with. You, of course, can consider the former if you want. All I can do is wish you good luck with an even more broken power scaling and explaining it to someone else.

I am going by statements and guide statements. It has been said in both that its tens of times for fusion, no exact is given and I never said there was one.

I never said the examples I gave were exact but going by the first one I listed base Kefla would be stronger than them separate.

And we were talking about Kefla most recently but I said the pl x pl was only ever mentioned to be about potara and you said it could be applied to metamor. And this thread was about metamor.


And you didn't answer the question. What are the power levels? Don't need exacts but I'd be interested in seeing how you get such large multipliers to fit so well that it makes much more sense.

[miguelnuva1]

Gogeta says he's Goku and Vegeta's power not just added together but multiplied plus Fusion and Potara are equal trump cards.

You can also make an argument that Base fusion is made from the maximum power of the fuses for example Gogeta in base looked more like Blue Goku+ Blue Vegeta then base Goku + base Vegeta.

Anyway the saiyans win with Oozaru. I have them around 100m in speed so Frieza isn't that much faster and their Oozaru power will be 1B.

[Desassina]

Yeah, that makes sense. I was thinking more about Kibitoshin, but with saiyans we have this "rule".

I was wondering about that myself ever since this began. We know that Shin is stronger than Piccolo who is stronger than Trunks and Goten. A Kibito that can fight Zamasu requested that Gohan transformed and the latter is stronger than Trunks and Goten. We're talking about a Kibitoshin who's still not a better option than SS2 Vegeta against Pure Boo and they do not power up. Had people told us that Saiyans were still able to increase their power in base before transforming, they wouldn't have thought about the fusion boost being ridiculously low, since Gotenks powered up immensely without having transformed after fusion.

We were challenged to make sense out of these statements, and because we're sophisticated people knowing that numbers are only in the place of events, to never rewrite the source that they come from unless directly shown, but to help us create the concepts that we translate in words, here's my attempt at justifying the fusion boost being "too low":

1. The Saiyans' ability to increase their power in base before they arrive at SS comes from having unlocked the form already. Without knowing whether Goku could use it or not, Kaioken was still his best option on Namek, so now we have a change in form to get rid of multipliers. That's how Toriyama signals their strength. A proportion still exists though: it decreases the "multiplier" once their power begins to grow in base. That's why I'm using SS as the threshold with base in any level of suppression. Base grows to many different levels in DB and Super and that's what I'm about to show.

...
Base Saiyan = 0.78125 <- suppressed base prior to SS (in the Cell Games).
Super Saiyan = 1
Grade II SS = 1.25
Grade III SS = 1.5625 <- suppressed base prior to SS FP (during Majin Boo's arc).
SS Full Power = 2
Super Saiyan 2 = 2.5
Super Saiyan 3 = 6.25 <- suppressed base prior to God SS (throughout most of Super).
Ultimate/God SS = 8
Super Saiyan God = 10
Super Saiyan Blue = 100
...

2. Now let's imagine Gotenks was a SS3 at 6.25 having fused from Goten and Trunks's power added to each other and increased tens of times. Goten and Trunks are more less (without considering their individual differences) 0.04 at the brink of transformation. Fused into base Gotenks close to Super Saiyan is 0.8. Let's see their improvements from before the Room of Spirit and Time and afterwards, because there are some misconceptions about their increase against Majin Boo and the Evil one:

...
Pre-RoSaT Base Gotenks = 0.5 <- not enough to defeat Majin Boo after having fused.
Pre-RoSaT SS Gotenks = 0.64 <- stronger than before with an increase that I will repeat.
Post-RoSaT Base Gotenks = 0.78125 <- increased by one fourth to the power of 2 (1.5625).
Post-RoSaT SS Gotenks = 1 <- stronger than before by transforming with a repeated increase.
...

3. It took close to only 1.6 for him to become stronger than his previous SS level by powering up immensely after fusing. 1.6 times their power might not seem much (it's percentual growth after all). These characters are perceived much stronger than your average human though. Now let's go to Vegetto in the original and DBS manga and maybe Gogeta or Kefla:

...
Base Kefla/Vegetto = 15.625 <- enough to wipe out a single SSG.
SS Kefla/Vegetto = 20 <- enough to give Boo's absorption a beating.
Base Gogeta/Vegetto = 125 <- prior to God SS above a single SSB.
God SS Gogeta/Vegetto = 160 <- it more than surpasses a single SSB.
...

Phew! Not that hard. It just takes some adjusting to the things that are shown.