Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

[Matches Malone]

What's wrong with Vegeta's breakdown? He's had similar moments where he just loses his willpower in the face an overwhelming threat like against Freeza.

The difference is that against Freeza, Vegeta threw everything he had at him. Against Broly, he hit him once or twice then completely broke down.

The movie never actually spells out why Broly hates Goku. The crying thing is only implied.

I just checked and you're right, although it was heavily hinted at. Regardless, I'm happy Toriyama left it out.

[ABED]

What's wrong with Vegeta's breakdown? He's had similar moments where he just loses his willpower in the face an overwhelming threat like against Freeza.

The difference is that against Freeza, Vegeta threw everything he had at him. Against Broly, he hit him once or twice then completely broke down.

The movie never actually spells out why Broly hates Goku. The crying thing is only implied.

I just checked and you're right, although it was heavily hinted at. Regardless, I'm happy Toriyama left it out.

I've always taken it to mean in that film's universe, Vegeta heard of the legendary power beyond super saiyan and felt like he was seeing it before his eyes. Because it was a Saiyan, he was prone to believing it and lost all hope. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with it.

[LoganForkHands73]

People seem to intentionally misunderstand the baby Goku crying thing. OG Broly is a naturally hateful, psychotic person but the reason he homes in on Goku specifically is because he associates KAKAROTTO with his earliest memories that he associates with the trauma of an attempted assassination and then narrowly escaping his planet's destruction. I think that's a really obvious extrapolation. Despite this, Broly is clearly not meant to be an overly sympathetic antagonist as his mind is warped. He's a legitimate sadist who loves pain and destruction. Like modern Broly, his emotional development was permanently stunted as he became a slave to his father.

To his sociopathic mind, pinning all of his blame and hatred on Goku is a logical step to make. Yes, he is a bit of a big baby, but aren't most psychos really just slaves to their own selfish, immature irrationalities? You can say the same thing about characters like Patrick Bateman and Norman Bates. Both have monomania regarding their self-image and mummy issues respectively, and they often look ridiculous and immature because of it. But that doesn't make them bad characters at all. OG Broly at least had a semblance of backstory, motivation and personality, which is more than can be said for most Z movie villains. He just became overexposed and cool to hate on.

Yes, there were problems with presentation in the original film and I'll say flat out that Super: Broly is superior by leaps and bounds. But while Toriyama and the Toei staff changed a lot of things, they kept a lot the same and just improved the execution greatly.

Super Broly is maybe a bit too strong to be believable. Considering what they had to work with though, I think they did the best job they could without altering the core concepts of the character so much that he would become completely unrecognisable. Broly has to be a large, insanely tough Saiyan survivor with a rare gift, in this case a mutation, and he has to have a vaguely similar backstory. It may be harder to swallow considering the current level of the Saiyan protagonists, but the character writing more than makes up for it imo.

Also, I think it makes perfect sense for Goku to accept Broly as a good guy, since we see that Broly doesn't take pleasure in fighting unlike previous antagonists. He's not a grinning sadist (at least until the Ikari takes over his mind, but even then I only see him "angry smiling" like real life apes do).

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

There's also the heavy handed symbolism to it meant to establish Broly as a foil for Goku. Broly was born with a battle power of 10000 while Goku was born with a battle power of 2. By any reasonable standard Goku should be nothing to Broly. But Goku is much more than a number readout so he's able to assert his will on Broly even as children. The point of the scene (as the doctors practically state) is to establish that Goku is unconquerable. Which naturally enrages Broly who, as a Saiyan (at least the version of Saiyans TOEI was putting forward), refuses to be second to anything/anyone.

Super Broly on the other hand isn't a foil for Goku at all. He's his own dude with his own issues which is probably why the Goku parts of his movie feel a little out of place. The movie and Broly's own baggage point to Freeza as the antagonist. If Broly was going to go after Goku it should have been as vengeance for ressurecting Freeza. But then again that'd be a lot of story to jam into a stand alone anime film.

Anyway, Cheelai is hot.

[WittyUsername]

The people above pretty neatly summed up why I think Movie 8 gets an unfair amount of backlash. It’s definitely not my favorite movie in the franchise, but with the way certain people talk about it, you’d think it’s the Star Trek Into Darkness of DB films. I kind of get the impression that Movies 10 and 11 played a part in tainting people’s views on Movie 8. That and Broly’s overexposure in general.

[Dbzfan94]

This summed up my feelings on Movie 8 Broly exactly. I never understood why people said Super Broly was "so much better"

[Grimlock]

That and Broly’s overexposure in general.

Most certainly, overexposure is something bad. I do have a problem with certain characters because of that, and it's the same with Broly. All popularity (which can and will only generate more exposure) but no actual substance behind it. Nothing really justify Broly having four movies (and a cheap knock-off as female) while others get two if they're lucky enough. Not to mention that there are far more interesting characters than him.

[Matches Malone]

Most certainly, overexposure is something bad. I do have a problem with certain characters because of that, and it's the same with Broly. All popularity but no actual substance behind it.

I don't mind his lack of substance, as the original intention was to have a hulking monster beat the hell out of everybody. The problem is that he's been forced into everything, from multiple movies, nearly every game, and now potentially becoming a series regular on Super.

I never understood why people said Super Broly was "so much better"

The problem with the new Broly is that he doesn't seem to have much of a personality. The original hated Goku and loved to destroy, this new version is very plain and dull, he just doesn't have anything going for him. Even his destructive power that's associated with him was barely on display, as anytime he began to show it, someone else would take over and even the playing field.

[SupremeKai25]

Dragon Ball Super's Broli is literally a kind-hearted victim of abuse and PTSD that people with bad childhoods can identify with. Dragon Ball Z Broli simply doesn't like Gokuu and...is evil for the sake of it.

Agreed. DBZ Broly was literally the most generic villain you could write. Perhaps he only beats Kid Buu in terms of personality, because at least Broly spells some sentences.

I don't like DBS Broly, but at least this time they tried giving him a personality and some nuance.

Do they though? He's a cliched abused child who develops rage issues and lashes out at even the good guys trying to help him. Sometimes a one note wrecking machine works just fine. The problem is he got over exposed. It's not true that villains have to have fully developed three dimensional personas and backstories. A cool look and presence alone works well sometimes.

Everything is dependent on execution, and I'd rather a well executed 2 dimensional character than a boring attempt at a 3 dimensional character.

I didn't say villains need to have a complex personality and backstory to be entertaining. People like Perfect Cell and Super Buu were enjoyable to watch despite not having particularly complex intentions. The problem is when you have a villain who literally does nothing else but scream. The sad thing is that he remains the same screaming retard for the rest of the trilogy too, there is no attempt at making him grow somewhat or even just fleshing out his barebone personality. Some people might enjoy a screaming hulk as main villain, but I certainly don't.

Super Broly during the fight runs into the same problem, he's just a walking monster with no personality, but beyond that at the very least they try to develop him as a character. At the end of the movie he didn't just get yeet'ed into the sun, he got the opportunity to meet good people and make a new life for himself free from his abusive father, and his backstory isn't that of a psycopath who destroys entire galaxies for fun. He has a somewhat sympathetic backstory, and the fact that he wears that belt as a memento of his childhood friend makes him far more compelling than the empty brute that was Z Broly.

[LoganForkHands73]

Super Broly on the other hand isn't a foil for Goku at all. He's his own dude with his own issues which is probably why the Goku parts of his movie feel a little out of place. The movie and Broly's own baggage point to Freeza as the antagonist. If Broly was going to go after Goku it should have been as vengeance for ressurecting Freeza. But then again that'd be a lot of story to jam into a stand alone anime film.

Hmm, I would say New Broly parallels Goku quite a lot. His backstory is basically the same outline as Goku's when you look at it, just in different circumstances. Let's check the similarities: Saiyan outcast sent to a distant backwater planet before Planet Vegeta's destruction, they live for years in the wilderness and befriend wild animals, get trained in basic combat by their father figure, are discovered and brought to civilisation by a young woman, steadily finds they have prodigious fighting talent. The major difference that caused their paths to diverge were things they had no control over, i.e. that Broly was born into the mid-class and was ostracised for his insanely high power whereas Kakarot was an unremarkable low-class runt. The old DBZ class allegory back into play.

The parallels extend to their biological fathers, Paragus and Bardock, who are portrayed as being exceptional in that they care so much for their sons, but of course Paragus's wounded pride, isolation on Vampa and desire for vengeance make him lose sight of any love he had for Broly, whereas Bardock cared for baby Kakarot even though he was deemed a worthless runt. Bardock promised to find Kakarot but never got the chance. Paragus actually tracked Broly down but his influence only made Broly's situation worse.

The problem is when you have a villain who literally does nothing else but scream.

That's not really true at all of Broly in the original Movie 8. He was always making edgy quips and taunts. He had uber-confident body language. It's a huge shame that it is true of every other appearance since that film.

[SupremeKai25]

Super Broly on the other hand isn't a foil for Goku at all. He's his own dude with his own issues which is probably why the Goku parts of his movie feel a little out of place. The movie and Broly's own baggage point to Freeza as the antagonist. If Broly was going to go after Goku it should have been as vengeance for ressurecting Freeza. But then again that'd be a lot of story to jam into a stand alone anime film.

Hmm, I would say New Broly parallels Goku quite a lot. His backstory is basically the same outline as Goku's when you look at it, just in different circumstances. Let's check the similarities: Saiyan outcast sent to a distant backwater planet before Planet Vegeta's destruction, they live for years in the wilderness and befriend wild animals, get trained in basic combat by their father figure, are discovered and brought to civilisation by a young woman, steadily finds they have prodigious fighting talent. The major difference that caused their paths to diverge were things they had no control over, i.e. that Broly was born into the mid-class and was ostracised for his insanely high power whereas Kakarot was an unremarkable low-class runt. The old DBZ class allegory back into play.

The parallels extend to their biological fathers, Paragus and Bardock, who are portrayed as being exceptional in that they care so much for their sons, but of course Paragus's wounded pride, isolation on Vampa and desire for vengeance make him lose sight of any love he had for Broly, whereas Bardock cared for baby Kakarot even though he was deemed a worthless runt. Bardock promised to find Kakarot but never got the chance. Paragus actually tracked Broly down but his influence only made Broly's situation worse.

The problem is when you have a villain who literally does nothing else but scream.

That's not really true at all of Broly in the original Movie 8. He was always making edgy quips and taunts. He had uber-confident body language. It's a huge shame that it is true of every other appearance since that film.

That's why I put him above Kid Buu just for the fact that he made some sentences. Aside from that, extremely generic villain with barebone personality.

[LoganForkHands73]

That's why I put him above Kid Buu just for the fact that he made some sentences. Aside from that, extremely generic villain with barebone personality.

Well, each their own. OG Broly is far from my favourite either but I think he had an entertaining personality in his debut at least.

[SupremeKai25]

Personally I would've seen more appeal in Z Broly if they focused more on his tragic backstory and how that trauma twisted him into becoming a psycopath, but to each their own indeed.

[ABED]

A tragic and sympathetic backstory doesn't make a character any less generic than a minimalist personality.

[SupremeKai25]

A tragic backstory doesn't make a character any less generic than a minimalist personality.

If you don't focus on that backstory at all, like in the case of Broly, then it won't. Had his traumatic past played a more important role in the movie, he would've absolutely been a more compelling villain. One of the mistakes they fixed with Super Broly.

As far as I recall, there's nothing in the movie even hinting at Broly's traumatic experience possibly shaping him into the monster he became, which is a major missed opportunity. Especially since they made a trilogy out of this character.

[Scientist Fu]

I don't mind people not liking OG Broly, but hating and trashtalking him like he was the stupidest, most boring, generic character ever made and that he has no personality or background or the famous "he hates kekeret because he cried" is just a big "NO! NO! NO!" for me.

Someone who is a little sincere with himself would never say that Broly from movie 8 had no personality and no background.

In movie 8 : he was bloodthirsty, arrogant, sadistic, psychotic, violent and also had his own sense of humor. He has a tragic backstory ( which makes him more likeable ) whether you like it or not, whether you find it basic or not. It is true that he does not have any particular goals aside from fighting and destroying but that does not make him a bad character at all. His backstory can also be interpreted in different ways and that's what makes him unique. Broly 8 is a good movie villain ~

In the second coming : that's where he is full of rage and does not talk ( except one time at the end of the movie ). He is now so obsessed with Goku that he mistakes him with one of Goku's family members ( Goten and Gohan ). I do understand that a lot of people find this Broly boring and/or lame but you also have to know that it was not how he was before he got defeated by Goku.

In the third movie : it's just a failed clone ~

[ABED]

A tragic backstory doesn't make a character any less generic than a minimalist personality.

If you don't focus on that backstory at all, like in the case of Broly, then it won't. Had his traumatic past played a more important role in the movie, he would've absolutely been a more compelling villain. One of the mistakes they fixed with Super Broly.

As far as I recall, there's nothing in the movie even hinting at Broly's traumatic experience possibly shaping him into the monster he became, which is a major missed opportunity. Especially since they made a trilogy out of this character.

The difference maker isn't the level of focus, it's the overall execution. I don't find tragic past inherently interesting no matter how much a roll it plays. It's all about the skill of the writing and the actor. Backstory isn't a magic bullet. What truly matters is the story going forward, not exposition.

Sometimes people just have bad wiring no matter their upbringing.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

The parallels extend to their biological fathers, Paragus and Bardock, who are portrayed as being exceptional in that they care so much for their sons, but of course Paragus's wounded pride, isolation on Vampa and desire for vengeance make him lose sight of any love he had for Broly, whereas Bardock cared for baby Kakarot even though he was deemed a worthless runt. Bardock promised to find Kakarot but never got the chance. Paragus actually tracked Broly down but his influence only made Broly's situation worse.

That;s a really good point. Can't believe that went over my head. May have to give the movie a second watch.

That's not really true at all of Broly in the original Movie 8. He was always making edgy quips and taunts. He had uber-confident body language. It's a huge shame that it is true of every other appearance since that film.

Z-Broly did have a love of black comedy. The absurdity of a 8 (9?) foot tall goliath using Goku's torso as a trampoline still makes me giggle during rewatches. Shame we didn't see more of that in Broly's follow up appearances. At least Cooler got to keep his mannerisms in his second movie. Broly lost the smirk and the cruelty.

[LoganForkHands73]

That;s a really good point. Can't believe that went over my head. May have to give the movie a second watch.

Z-Broly did have a love of black comedy. The absurdity of a 8 (9?) foot tall goliath using Goku's torso as a trampoline still makes me giggle during rewatches. Shame we didn't see more of that in Broly's follow up appearances. At least Cooler got to keep his mannerisms in his second movie. Broly lost the smirk and the cruelty.

Cheers man, no worries. I would recommend a rewatch of Super: Broly but I'd cautiously say that the hype does wear down quite a bit around the third or so watch. I enjoy the first half much more narratively speaking but the fight scenes in the second half are still stunning.

Yeah, the sequels forever tainted Z Broly's image. I think a key difference is that Broly made an absolute joke of the Z-Fighters in Movie 8, but by Movie 10 the jokes were suddenly on him (i.e. getting pissed on by Trunks). The trampoline scene is funny but it's also terrifying. It's a strong contender on a "Top 5 Bad Guy Tortures Goku Scenes, Making You Wonder If He's a Hardcore Masochist" list, lmao.

[Dbzfan94]

A tragic backstory doesn't make a character any less generic than a minimalist personality.

If you don't focus on that backstory at all, like in the case of Broly, then it won't. Had his traumatic past played a more important role in the movie, he would've absolutely been a more compelling villain. One of the mistakes they fixed with Super Broly.

As far as I recall, there's nothing in the movie even hinting at Broly's traumatic experience possibly shaping him into the monster he became, which is a major missed opportunity. Especially since they made a trilogy out of this character.

Traumatic sob stories are really overused and frankly boring. They don’t make a character more interesting. I don’t think it was a “fixed mistake” at all