"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[The Undying]

I think UI was portrayed well enough in this chapter.

Aside from that one panel I mentioned, I agree.

There isn't a whole lotta room to discuss the paneling since art expectations are always ultra-subjective, but that reminds me of similar criticisms I've read about Ultra Instinct being "Blue 2.0".

...which is quite a bizarre complaint, given that this arc by itself has probably done more to divorce Ultra Instinct from the Super Saiyan forms than just about anything else before it. The stamina problem is such a minor (and common) similarity that it's basically akin to saying "UI is no different than Goku's other forms because it's a transformation".

[Mister_Popo]

Just read the chapter too.

I still think that it remains all in all entertaining, which you can expect from the start of a final battle, with relatively good panels that accurately reflect the intensity of the battle. But there are also a number of negatives. The arc no longer has the degree of originality from the beginning, and there are still a few loose ends that can still be tied. The ending will determine for me what ranking this arc gets. For me, it currently hangs somewhere between Zamasu arc, which remains Super's best arc in my view, and TOP.

I can understand some of the reactions of disillusionment here. But there are still some things that we as a fan should take into account.
We have to keep in mind that this is entertainment from a mega franchise. Toyotaro, even Toriyama, are assisted and directed by media advisors (such as the Broly film). They cannot just send out every wild idea. Dragon Ball is a franchise and primarily wants to provide fan service. And the safest way to provide fan service is to find those tropes that have always worked in the past.
Within that framework I think Toyotaro is doing his best.

Toyotaro is not Akira Toriyama. Toriyama is a very gifted mangake. The fact that Toyotaro manages to approach and somewhat copy Toriyama's art style is a credit in itself. No, its panels are not as detailed and expressive as Toriyama's, but it does approach the same look and feel. I think he did a very good representation of the incredible speed of UI Omen. Goku flashes from one place to another, how he seems almost invisible at times. It also doesn't show up as a classic power-up, other than perhaps that rather unfortunate panel on the last page.
Now I find that the tropes in this chapter are extremely striking:

Goku: "Look what I have at home, Moro .."
Moro: "Haha, you haven't seen everything about me, I'm afraid ..."
Goku: "You haven't seen the last of me either!"
Moro: "Oho, you had something else to hand, intriguing ..."

And there were some things that are somewhat contradictory, such as:
- Moro can absorb energy, so why does Goku shoot a Kamehameha at Moro's ass in its strongest form?
- WTF happened exactly during that intimate hug?
- Beerus stays on his butt, but unless he can make a deal with Moro, who says Moro can't threaten his position?
- Goku that loads in UI as if it were SSJ at the end.

There are also some loose ends that have not yet been tied together.
I miss a role of a number of characters that played an essential role at the beginning of the arc, or 'higher meanings':

- What about Merus, has he just become a side character? Yet another doll that provides commentary? Why is he first a member of the Galactic Patrol, and trained Goku at the risk of his own position / life if the Grand Priest discovered it? Surely he must have had a good motive for that?
- What is Moro's higher motive? Even Freeza and Cell had clear motives besides just being 'bad'.
- What about the Grand Supreme Kai? The story more or less started with that, he has returned to New Namek, but what now, does he no longer have any meaning or role?
- What about Jaco and the mess? It's their arc, but are they gazing at Gokus skill like the rest of the Z fighters?
- The angels deny that Goku can reach MUI. But if there is any reason to believe that Goku will break his limits, it is. Then it is extra impressive if it works. Not that it is completely unpredictable .. Anyway, what else would this arc be about? TOP was an 'accident' or a 'first flash in extreme conditions'. But now it has to happen, you would think, if this arc has to be about something, it is Goku who eventually masters UI and also Vegeta who is going through the next phase of its evolution. That would make the most sense, because what sense would the arc have had if it just remained stuck in UI Omen, a shape that he could briefly overclass during TOP?

[MechaTrunks]

Very nice chapter all in all and much, much better than the last one.
In fact, it goes as far as to retconn one of Piccolo's most controversial statement from the past chapter where he stated that SSJB Goku had turned stronger (it now seems it was just his personal impression and not meant to be taken as a stated fact).

Between this chapter and the 2 pages extra chapter that explains why Moro and Freeza haven't collided, I think I'm recovering the faith in the DBS manga and Toyotarou.
Still bit too much fanservicey for my tastes and not as well written as the original manga, but at least he is trying to be coherent.

Regarding Moro's absorption, it seems it's not a passive ability but that he has to do it consciously and it takes a bit of time to prepare.
Goku's KameHame took Moro by surprise and then UI Omen Goku dodged all the absorbing attempts Moro tried. I think this contradicts a bit how the absorption worked before but I can accept it for the sake of not having more asspulls during the final fights.

Regards!

[Gt91]

Between this chapter and the 2 pages extra chapter that explains why Moro and Freeza haven't collided, I think I'm recovering the faith in the DBS manga and Toyotarou.

I missed the 2 extra pages.
How moro didn't meet freeza?

[Hugo Boss]

I missed the 2 extra pages.
How moro didn't meet freeza?

Freeza said it’s best to avoid “criminals”. Ironically he views himself as a businessman.

[MechaTrunks]

Between this chapter and the 2 pages extra chapter that explains why Moro and Freeza haven't collided, I think I'm recovering the faith in the DBS manga and Toyotarou.

I missed the 2 extra pages.
How moro didn't meet freeza?

You'll find the news in this very page (not in the forums, in the main page).

As Hugo Boss said, Freeza basically decides to go explore other parts of the unvierse in order to avoid conflict with Moro.

Regards!

[Gt91]

Thank you guys! Have a good day

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

In my opinion, the fight was still a good one!

Now, when Goku runs out of stamina will he unlock the mastered form?

Or Vegeta will play an important role yet?

Maybe a fusion will be the solution?

[Kanassa]

I missed the 2 extra pages.
How moro didn't meet freeza?

Freeza said it’s best to avoid “criminals”. Ironically he views himself as a businessman.

Wait, is that seriously the excuse for why Frieza isn't involved? Moro is eating planets by the dozen, planets that Frieza wants to sell. Why would Frieza not care about this!?

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I missed the 2 extra pages.
How moro didn't meet freeza?

Freeza said it’s best to avoid “criminals”. Ironically he views himself as a businessman.

Wait, is that seriously the excuse for why Frieza isn't involved? Moro is eating planets by the dozen, planets that Frieza wants to sell. Why would Frieza not care about this!?

Freeza probably doesn't want to get his ass kicked or something. He's trying to rebuild his struggling empire, taking on Moro probably isn't a good idea. He wants to regain his ground in business and the affairs of a Galactic Prisoner outbreak isn't of his concern. I don't get why he isn't interested in racking in soldier's though, given some of the remaining prisoners could be army material if threatened.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Random and scattered thoughts on Chapter 59:

- Oh look... a cameo from Beerus. And surprise, surprise... it's food related. *sigh*
- Meerus and Whis overlook how Goku is doing. And you know, with the reveal of Meerus being is a trainee Angel, what universe is going to be placed in? Does this mean Angels can be replaced? Or are Angels killed? Or do Angels die of old age? Or are they going to find a new universe for him? How does this Angel system work?


In conclusion... nothing happened.

Beerus is a lazy cat, can't say I'm too surprised honestly. Honestly the only thing he cares about is sleeping, eating, and....I'm struggling to think of anything else. Apparently the Universal Tournament slipped his mind cause you'd think he'd care a bit more about the mortal level. Oh well, it's Beerus.

I feel like the Grand Priest's plan is to make a universe for Merus when he's ready, but knowing how this arc is going to go, they're going to throw a wrench in the plan. Given how we've heard about this angel law and how those who break it get erased, I feel like that's going to be at play later in the fight.

Angels are immortal and given how old the GP is I doubt they can die naturally , I think father dearest wants to give Merus a new universe. They'll probably explain the system while Moro is becoming a bigger threat. I think with all this mention of the angel code that someone is going to die. Merus seems likely given his willingness to jump in and intervene, though now that I think about it, I feel like Whis could die too.

I feel like everyone here is forgetting that Whis is responsible for Merus's safety and that I doubt he would be stupid enough to let him die. Whis made himself his guardian for a reason and he isn't going to slack on it. I feel like they're going to have Beerus leave to go get food or something, just to keep him out of the conflict. Whis would probably stay behind because taking his eye off of Merus would be stupid given Merus could legit teleport to Earth in five seconds and die.

I imagine once Moro becomes too big of an issue in later chapters that Merus will attempt to get involved and try to plead with Whis to let him go because Whis is blocking his way. This would the perfect time for Whis and Merus to have a little heart to heart thing, given Beerus isn't there and all.

I imagine Whis doesn't like Moro either and he did mention earlier he was kind of disappointed with how Universe 7 turned out as a whole when with his father. Moro is literally a walking disaster, him being alive kills any chance of Universe 7 getting back on its feet.

I feel like divine intervention will be needed to put Moro to rest for good, because the goat is known for his magical abilities and such. On the brink of death, I imagine Moro would get desperate and try something to turn the tables and catch everyone off guard last minute, leaving the hero's flat footed. Who knows, given how the dragon balls were mentioned by Gohan, he might just destroy them to ensure the damage his permanent and use some other abilities he's had under his sleeve.

And if Goku and Vegeta's combined skills can't put him down, who will? Beerus doesn't care, Merus will get erased if he gets involved, and Whis in the same boat.

I feel like Whis would know damn well what's going to happen if he goes to earth, but seeing as he doesn't want his entire Universe getting snacked on he might interfere. Besides, given Moro's demonic abilities and his knowledge, who says he doesn't know what the time rings are? If he exhausts all of his resources in Universe 7, he might try invading other timelines to snack on other planets. Moro could easily become a problem for everyone if not killed as fast as possible.

And besides he did promise his father not to get Merus involved in the Moro situation at all costs.

Its not like Merus could stop Whis if this happened either, I assume the strength gap between Whis and Merus is large enough that Whis could safely knock him out for a short period of time. Just enough for Whis to get involved and get himself erased. And personally, I'd prefer this erasure to permanent, because in dragon ball death tends to be a revolving door. At least, if your name is Goku, Vegeta, and co.

I know I'm just speculating and probably very wrong but the manga ain't finished so anything can happen. I'm kinda just open to possibilities. Also I'd prefer they do something with this angel in training thing instead of just killing Merus off. I don't have anything against Whis, but if it were between him and Merus, I'd rather he die so further possibilities can be explored after this arc has concluded. Even have Merus take his place or something to mix things up.

[ssj3kakarot]

Ultra Instinct, and by extension, Sign, is a technique, not a transformation. This was stated by one of the Gods of Destruction. I believe in chapter 41, when Goku uses UI for 1st time aginst Jiren.

Is there any other texts where it calls it a transformation? I'm curious more than anything. I know it's also been called a "state."

I just see a lot of people calling it a transformation and didnt know if there was any data to go along with that. People never say goku transformed into Kaioken, or Goku went Kaioken. It doesn't matter really, i'm just curious. Thanks!

[Grimlock]

If it changes physical appearance it is a transformation. Which is why even forms with the "slightest" changes like the red-eyed one and merely becoming giant are all transformations. Since Goku has to transform (change his physical appearance) to use the Ultra Instinct technique and considering it has no name of its own, it's convenient to call it "Ultra Instinct" too. In this sense, "Ultra Instinct" is both a technique and a transformation.

Up until recently I always saw Ultimate as a legit transformation, given the way Gohan powers up to it in Movie 13, Movie 14 and Toei definitely settling it as such in Dragon Ball Super during Gohan's fight against Piccolo, but I came to accept that it may also be just a permanent (?) state, functioning very similar to Saiyan beyond God, when it comes to the manga continuity.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

- Vegeta is still on Planet Yardrat? What!? Why the fuck is he still on the planet!? And considering that he can somehow know what's going on Earth, you'd think he'd start making his way to Earth to confront Moro. Instead, he's still on Planet Yardrat and even though shit could hit the fan at any moment. But I guess we gotta save Vegeta for that traditional dramatic appearance.

I wonder if there's a chance Vegeta won't fight Moro at all, and instead he's being saved for a Vegeta focused Sadal arc.

In the last chapter Vegeta appeared he was still trying to learn the move to beat Moro. Even if Vegeta doesn’t know instant transmission still he is on a planet with aliens that do meaning he should have no problem to get to Earth immediately when he is needed


At this point Goku is fighting Moro so he doesn’t need to rush back and can continue last minute training

Yes of course this is all probably for a dramatic entrance but why Vegeta hasn’t arrived yet has been explained.

Vegeta is probably gonna arrive when Goku's at death's door and show off the abilities that can finally put Moro on edge. And then once it feels like Vegeta will body Moro and kill him ,7-3 shows up out nowhere and steals his powers and use them against Vegeta to aid Moro or something. I imagine they'll have to kill 7-3 off at some point given his power copying make's him extremely dangerous, though he can only use one skill at a time so that's a positive. We all know when it looks like Vegeta will win, something unexpected will happen lol. IMO Moro will be a team effort kill seeing as he's being such a pain to put down. He's just taking extra long with that training because it's something specific he has in mind for Moro's defeat.

[ssj3kakarot]

If it changes physical appearance it is a transformation. Which is why even forms with the "slightest" changes like the red-eyed one and merely becoming giant are all transformations. Since Goku has to transform (change his physical appearance) to use the Ultra Instinct technique and considering it has no name of its own, it's convenient to call it "Ultra Instinct" too. In this sense, "Ultra Instinct" is both a technique and a transformation.

Up until recently I always saw Ultimate as a legit transformation, given the way Gohan powers up to it in Movie 13, Movie 14 and Toei definitely settling it as such in Dragon Ball Super during Gohan's fight against Piccolo, but I came to accept that it may also be just a permanent (?) state, functioning very similar to Saiyan beyond God, when it comes to the manga continuity.

My question was is there any evidence of it being a transformation over a technique. There has been explicted text defining it as a technique and not a transformation. I don't read japanese so I rely on the translations. Mabye technique and transformation are very similar or very opposite. I agree with you that that it seems more like a transformation, but am curious as to why it has been called a technique.

[Miracles]

Throughout DB, the words transformation and technique were interchangeable.
Dr. Gero also called SSJ a technique. UI as well, labeled both a technique and transformation.

[Koitsukai]

Too bad the Freeza bit (and the Cell Jrs. bit and Gohan and Future Trunks goodbye bit) wasn't available on the sites I read the manga. It makes sense for him to keep a low profile and let his enemies take care of it, or even better, let them die trying, that was his plan with Broly after all.

What seems really stupid is to keep bringing stronger than GoDs characters and have Beerus fishing like he is too cool for school. This is the 3rd enemy that is said to have surpassed the GoDs. He couldn't take part vs Jiren, ok; Broly's growth was gradual so it was okay for him to not take it seriously and stay on the beach, and Whis was there too, I guess, but Moro?? it's been going on for months now, he is a historical threat for the kaioshin who are linked to his own life, he's been living eons bored as fuck because there is no one to play with, here you have a great challenge, way bigger than the two bums he's taken under his wing, wouldn't this be what he's been waiting for?

But fuck all the in-universe reasons, what's the point of having stronger than GoD foes that never fight a GoD. What's the point of having GoDs if they never ever do anything? he's become THE peanut gallery and I really don't like it. Is he not going to fight for real ever in the show?
I mean, have a villain that requires the intervention of the hakaishin and there you have the stakes raised like never before, we know Beerus isn't in EoZ, so him taking part in a big fight might actually make us the readers not as sure as always of the outcome. He can actually die, unlike Goku, Vegeta, etc.

He is starting to look like a pussy, really, is he afraid? is he trying to save face or is he going to be retconned again to be even out of FP Moro's league and all of this is just small potatoes?

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

What seems really stupid is to keep bringing stronger than GoDs characters and have Beerus fishing like he is too cool for school. This is the 3rd enemy that is said to have surpassed the GoDs. He couldn't take part vs Jiren, ok; Broly's growth was gradual so it was okay for him to not take it seriously and stay on the beach, and Whis was there too, I guess, but Moro?? it's been going on for months now, he is a historical threat for the kaioshin who are linked to his own life, he's been living eons bored as fuck because there is no one to play with, here you have a great challenge, way bigger than the two bums he's taken under his wing, wouldn't this be what he's been waiting for?

But fuck all the in-universe reasons, what's the point of having stronger than GoD foes that never fight a GoD. What's the point of having GoDs if they never ever do anything? he's become THE peanut gallery and I really don't like it. Is he not going to fight for real ever in the show?
I mean, have a villain that requires the intervention of the hakaishin and there you have the stakes raised like never before, we know Beerus isn't in EoZ, so him taking part in a big fight might actually make us the readers not as sure as always of the outcome. He can actually die, unlike Goku, Vegeta, etc.

He is starting to look like a pussy, really, is he afraid? is he trying to save face or is he going to be retconned again to be even out of FP Moro's league and all of this is just small potatoes?

Beerus doesn't seem like he cares honestly. For some stupid reason he seems just fine with Moro existing and doesn't seem to even be interested in challenging him. Typical behavior. It's been months and he doesn't care.

Well it's Beerus's thing to kind of slack and not do his job. We all need to remember who we're talking about, Koitsukai. This is the same guy who let Frieza control a good portion of galaxy at one point and allowed Buu to pretty much murder the kai's and planet's worth of people. This isn't the first time Beerus has shown disregard to threat's to his universe, even the ones with history against his lifelinks like Buu and Moro. You'd think after the Multiversal Tournament he'd give a damn slightly but it appears the event slipped from his mind. The last time Beerus did a decent job properly was with Present Zamasu.

These GoD threats are clearly just for Goku and Vegeta to progress and get stronger, and with a GoD who refuses to do his job this is a perfect scenario for them to fight without Beerus doing a hakai and erasing these threats out of existence.

Let's be honest, I think Beerus's lazy habits are going to keep biting both Goku and Vegeta on the ass, seeing as Moro is a threat he should be dealing with. But Goku and Vegeta have to do his job for him because Beerus is a lazy asshole. More than likely there going to have Beerus leave some time during this arc because he clearly ain't going to contribute to anything since he's fine with Moro doing his job. Probably to go eat or something cause that's how little he cares about Moro.

Honestly I don't get why Beerus is chill with Moro, you'd think he'd care about being dominant and the mortal level after the survival arc they had not too long ago. The again, I can't say I'm too shocked. Beerus doesn't feel like getting involved because he doesn't believe it's his problem, probably think that since Goku and Vegeta are fighting the threat that it doesn't matter too much.

[Grimlock]

My question was is there any evidence of it being a transformation over a technique. There has been explicted text defining it as a technique and not a transformation. I don't read japanese so I rely on the translations. Mabye technique and transformation are very similar or very opposite. I agree with you that that it seems more like a transformation, but am curious as to why it has been called a technique.

As far as I can remember, the promotional texts about Ultra Instinct were descriptions regarding the technique part, they were always talking about body moving on its own or whatever. I don't remember them talking about the appearance itself, which would explain why you don't see the word "transformation" being used.

Not that you need a text to define anything, though. As I said, you can see for yourself that Goku's appearance changes, so it is a transformation, it should be enough evidence.

[TheNingen]

What seems really stupid is to keep bringing stronger than GoDs characters and have Beerus fishing like he is too cool for school. This is the 3rd enemy that is said to have surpassed the GoDs. He couldn't take part vs Jiren, ok; Broly's growth was gradual so it was okay for him to not take it seriously and stay on the beach, and Whis was there too, I guess, but Moro?? it's been going on for months now, he is a historical threat for the kaioshin who are linked to his own life, he's been living eons bored as fuck because there is no one to play with, here you have a great challenge, way bigger than the two bums he's taken under his wing, wouldn't this be what he's been waiting for?

But fuck all the in-universe reasons, what's the point of having stronger than GoD foes that never fight a GoD. What's the point of having GoDs if they never ever do anything? he's become THE peanut gallery and I really don't like it. Is he not going to fight for real ever in the show?
I mean, have a villain that requires the intervention of the hakaishin and there you have the stakes raised like never before, we know Beerus isn't in EoZ, so him taking part in a big fight might actually make us the readers not as sure as always of the outcome. He can actually die, unlike Goku, Vegeta, etc.

He is starting to look like a pussy, really, is he afraid? is he trying to save face or is he going to be retconned again to be even out of FP Moro's league and all of this is just small potatoes?

Beerus doesn't seem like he cares honestly. For some stupid reason he seems just fine with Moro existing and doesn't seem to even be interested in challenging him. Typical behavior. It's been months and he doesn't care.

Well it's Beerus's thing to kind of slack and not do his job. We all need to remember who we're talking about, Koitsukai. This is the same guy who let Frieza control a good portion of galaxy at one point and allowed Buu to pretty much murder the kai's and planet's worth of people. This isn't the first time Beerus has shown disregard to threat's to his universe, even the ones with history against his lifelinks like Buu and Moro. You'd think after the Multiversal Tournament he'd give a damn slightly but it appears the event slipped from his mind. The last time Beerus did a decent job properly was with Present Zamasu.

These GoD threats are clearly just for Goku and Vegeta to progress and get stronger, and with a GoD who refuses to do his job this is a perfect scenario for them to fight without Beerus doing a hakai and erasing these threats out of existence.

Let's be honest, I think Beerus's lazy habits are going to keep biting both Goku and Vegeta on the ass, seeing as Moro is a threat he should be dealing with. But Goku and Vegeta have to do his job for him because Beerus is a lazy asshole. More than likely there going to have Beerus leave some time during this arc because he clearly ain't going to contribute to anything since he's fine with Moro doing his job. Probably to go eat or something cause that's how little he cares about Moro.

Honestly I don't get why Beerus is chill with Moro, you'd think he'd care about being dominant and the mortal level after the survival arc they had not too long ago. The again, I can't say I'm too shocked. Beerus doesn't feel like getting involved because he doesn't believe it's his problem, probably think that since Goku and Vegeta are fighting the threat that it doesn't matter too much.

Super Dragon Ball Heroes is doing a better job of making Beerus act like a concerned GoD than the anime or manga have thus far. And that's saying something