Would the concept of an Evil Goku be better if it was actually Goku?

[DiscountDabi]

Lets say we had an Evil Goku Arc to replace the Black Arc. And instead of someone taking over Goku’s Body, its a version of Goku from another timeline way into the future. A future where Goku trained and trained to the point where no one, not even the Gods or Angels or Grand Priest or Zeno could match him. And Goku was the strongest being that lived and it drove him insane with the desire to find another person as strong as him.

Would something like that be in character for Goku and would it narratively be a more interesting story than what we got in the Goku Black Arc?

[SupremeKai25]

It wouldn't work. Someone stronger than the Grand Priest... how do you beat such a villain? A better backstory would be an alternate timeline's Goku who was adopted and raised into a weapon of destruction by Zamasu. Imagine if Goku had Zamasu instead of Gohan during his childhood, it wouldn't be a surprise if he became so twisted. There's even some fanart about this AU.

Regardless Black was becoming more and more like Goku, and that was a brilliant plot point. For example, he started enjoying the thrill of battle or the desire of getting stronger and stronger. It was very interesting to see how Goku's body and instincts were starting to influence Zamasu's mind, so I prefer the canon version that Black was Zamasu in Goku's body.

Ultimately I don't have a problem with how they developed the concept of Evil Goku. Black (and Zamasu) turned out to be my favourite character in Dragon Ball, despite how fanfic the concept itself sounds.

[sunsetshimmer]

I don't think that would fix anything, it would still be bad imo. Evil Goku is awful idea in any way. We already had Turles, who despite not really being Goku, was portrayed as "what if Goku never became good" and it was bad. Then we had even worse idea, with Goku's body being taken by a villain to fulfill selfish desires. How is "what if Goku became evil" better than those?

Goku is not Batman or Superman, watching his alternate evil version isn't shocking at all and there isn't even a reason why would he become evil. Looking for stronger opponents sounds like a lazy excuse, while Batman for example has a rule of no killing and seeing him become ruthless after crossing a line once is interesting. Or simply look at Jason Todd, one of many Robins.

Goku might have good heart, but he is still just plain simple shounen protagonist who likes to eat and fight, watching him becoming evil isn't fun in any way. I would take any version of possesed Vegeta (even Copy Vegeta) over any type of evil Goku. That's because characters like Majin Vegeta or Baby Vegeta had something more in them than just lazy fanservice. Both of them had strong story behind them. Even if Baby or Copy Vegeta weren't actually Vegeta, it was still more fun to watch Vegeta becoming a villain again.

If we REALLY have to include some kind of Evil Goku concept, then the best version would probably be Goku becoming controlled/possesed for a short period of time and Vegeta trying to convince him to fight with it, as that would also work great for Vegeta's character development, but i still wouldn't see Goku becoming a main villain. More like it was in SDBH where Goku become evil for a short time because of Cumber. That's my opinion.

[emperior]

Our Goku becoming evil would be out of character. He knows there’s always someone stronger out of there. And he spent 7 years training when dead without knowing if he would have ever had another chance to fight someone strong.

Black Goku was a great evil Goku. He had some traits of Goku and some peculiar traits and a very cool design.
Besides him, I think the only evil Goku I would have wanted to see is a Goku who never bumped his head and thus grew to kill all the Earthlings. But that would have been very unlikely to happen, as without his friends Goku would have never reached such heights and Minus also kinda makes it seem like maybe eventually Goku would have been influenced by Earth anyways, and that bumping his head just sped the process up. Modern DB in general has shown that Saiyans were brutal warriors more due to the society they lived in than because of their nature.

So nope, I disagree with the idea of a “true” evil Goku being better than what we got. If they had to introduce a Saitama-like character who is too strong and has no challenges and thus is eventually driven insane by this, it should be a new character.

[DragonBallFoodie]

I have to admit that seeing Goku as he might have turned out without the bump on his head would be fascinating.

But if he was still a fairly decent character like his parents, then that bump wouldn't have made too great a difference to his mentality. All that bump did was make him less intelligent, and him growing on Earth gave him more appreciation of its lifeforms and races.

(The impact of the bump varies with Japanese/dub versions I think)

[Grimlock]

Yes. Having anything as legitimate as it can be is always better than something similar or that merely impersonates it. In this case, having an actual evil Goku is more interesting than Turles, Ginyu (sort of?) and Zamasu. As they are merely impersonating that concept, thus not so interesting.

The closest we got to it was all thanks to Heroes, as one could expect. Not even Goku's "gentle heart" could overpower Cumber's evil Ki/presence. That alone already brought something interesting to the table. No matter how kind Goku is, there can be ways in which he can be corrupted, which is great, because I've always found very weird and obnoxious how Goku is always "safe", and poor Vegeta was the one who always get caught (or let himself be caught) by the "evil side" (see Majin Vegeta, Baby Vegeta, Time Breaker Vegeta...).

For a brief time and for a change, we got an actual evil Goku (using the best transformation, if I may add) and surely would like to see more of it.

[Polyphase Avatron]

How about something like in the Dragonball Multiverse webcomic where the alternate timeline Goku (called Kakarot, naturally) never hit his head, helped the Saiyans wipe out life on Earth and worked for Freeza?

The only problem is that he might not be strong enough to pose a challenge to post-Freeza saga characters.

[JulieYBM]

I cannot imagine an evil Son Gokuu nor do I really have an interest in it. Gokuu as-is is rather amoral, I'd rather just keep playing off of that.

[Tai Lung]

Lets say we had an Evil Goku Arc to replace the Black Arc. And instead of someone taking over Goku’s Body, its a version of Goku from another timeline way into the future. A future where Goku trained and trained to the point where no one, not even the Gods or Angels or Grand Priest or Zeno could match him. And Goku was the strongest being that lived and it drove him insane with the desire to find another person as strong as him.

Would something like that be in character for Goku and would it narratively be a more interesting story than what we got in the Goku Black Arc?

It wouldn't work ...

because first it is still impossible to reach the angels and even someone who has god ki has only surpassed the gods ... so without any instructions it would not make sense ... unless he is a very different goku since with only training would not be possible

you would only have a plot where goku is bad .. similar to injustice superman but without any relevant twist
In the case of black goku it was simply to establish the mystery of who or what was black ... if clarifying that it is goku there is no mystery but why would it go crazy or that originated

Turles presents an interesting concept of what would have happened if Goku did not hit his head but did not advance further and the idea was completely inferior in every way to Zamasu / Black.

[JulieYBM]

At this point, the only other Gokuu I'd be interested in seeing is a Gokuu who has outlived all of his friends that we know and we're dropped right into the middle of his life at the time.

[theherodjl]

I have to admit that seeing Goku as he might have turned out without the bump on his head would be fascinating.

But if he was still a fairly decent character like his parents, then that bump wouldn't have made too great a difference to his mentality. All that bump did was make him less intelligent, and him growing on Earth gave him more appreciation of its lifeforms and races.

(The impact of the bump varies with Japanese/dub versions I think)

That gives me an idea. Suppose the bump was "undone"? Like a future villain discovers that Goku's personality & temperament is based on the bump he sustained as a toddler and so the villain uses magic(or some type of ability) to revert Goku's mind back to it's original, feral nature. This leads to Goku becoming much more open to suggestion and even acting violently towards the people he knows, eventually leading to full-on mind control in which Goku actually becomes evil under the instruction of a puppet master. It would be a perfect opportunity for Vegeta, in a reversal of roles of their Boo arc battle, to fight Goku with the purpose of convincing him that he is really good at heart and must resist the villain's commands. That would be an amazing example of character development for Vegeta following his desire to save the Nameks.

[pepd]

I don't think Goku Black has really much to do with an evil Goku. Goku Black arc is really Zamasu arc, where he changes bodies with Goku. I don't see how could replace it, it would be totally different.
As for an evil Goku, I don't think it would work. That said, the desire of fighting strong opponents being a cause for an evil Goku, I think it's a good one, maybe with the saiyanjin behavior thing. I could see a Zeno-like evil Goku that just doesn't care, and loves fighting, being a villain to others but with no bad intentions; not in the canon tho.

[Lionel]

Goku as we know him wouldn't work as a traditional villain in Dragon Ball. The man is too naive and good-natured to fall into the same trappings as someone like Freeza or Cell.

Your best alternatives would have been either a potential dualistic Goku who never hit his head as a baby or something along the lines of what early TOP flirted with in Goku being perceived as this self-indulging pugnaphiliac who seems to be grossly unaware of the consequences of his actions. Goku himself wouldn't be fought traditionally by any of his friends. It would be more of a conflict of priorities and mindset. I think that's the closest you could get with traditional Goku sans mind control or something else along those lines as what Zamasu did.

[SupremeKai25]

When you think about it, Jiren is kind of an evil Goku, or a mirror of Goku (not really evil). He's Goku if he never had any comrades to help him during his time of need. They both want to be the strongest, but Goku does so by relying on the bonds he formed with others, whereas Jiren believed he didn't need anyone to get stronger.

[Lionel]

You know I find something odd. How can Jiren be part of an organisation that seeks to enforce justice and order throughout their universe while maintaining an amicable relationship with the public if he's supposed to be this dour solitarian who can't be bothered to work together with others? Being a de-facto paramilitary organisation would also presumably entail legal interactions with whatever passes for a government in U9. Why are you even part of a group that seems to be close-knit and teamwork based if you're just a lone juggernaut hoping to bulk himself up into being the strongest?

Opposite to Jiren, I can't help but wonder how the bonds Goku has with his friends and family provide a tangible utilitarian benefit to him. I mean sure there is the psychological condition of needing others both for companionship and general survival if only as part of a broader societal contract witnessed in institutions like the economy where he grows and sells produce to provide for himself and his family. Beyond that, has Goku's progress ever been contingent on the presence and actions of those such as Krillin or Piccolo past a certain point?

Goku ruminates on how his friends afford him the strength he needs to succeed but how is that solidly defined? Does he mean in the context of them providing motivation for him to push himself? If it is then it's an ancillary motive to him pursuing strength to defeat himself or whatever rationale Roshi reinstilled into him. Sensu bean dispensaries on legs and the first emotional impetus for transforming doesn't seem like it would constitute such profound attributing for Goku's success.

I think that while it might be technically true to an extent that the others were key to Goku's growth as a martial artist, they largely fell to the wayside after a certain point as outdated or insufficient "tools" (for lack of a better term given the context). Those who are directly benefiting Goku's training now are Whis, Vegeta, and Merus.

[Polyphase Avatron]

You know I find something odd. How can Jiren be part of an organisation that seeks to enforce justice and order throughout their universe while maintaining an amicable relationship with the public if he's supposed to be this dour solitarian who can't be bothered to work together with others? Being a de-facto paramilitary organisation would also presumably entail legal interactions with whatever passes for a government in U9. Why are you even part of a group that seems to be close-knit and teamwork based if you're just a lone juggernaut hoping to bulk himself up into being the strongest?

In the series One Punch Man, there is a character called Blast who is the number one hero in the Hero Association, yet he never actually shows up and does anything, and the association has no way to control or even contact him. Yet he has the permanent #1 rank because he is just so strong that they can't afford to ignore or demote him, even though he hasn't fought a villain for years and no one knows where he is.

We know Jiren is a better hero than Blast because we see him actually doing his job, so it's not surprising that the authorities of Universe 11 grant him so much leeway.

[Lionel]

You know I find something odd. How can Jiren be part of an organisation that seeks to enforce justice and order throughout their universe while maintaining an amicable relationship with the public if he's supposed to be this dour solitarian who can't be bothered to work together with others? Being a de-facto paramilitary organisation would also presumably entail legal interactions with whatever passes for a government in U9. Why are you even part of a group that seems to be close-knit and teamwork based if you're just a lone juggernaut hoping to bulk himself up into being the strongest?

In the series One Punch Man, there is a character called Blast who is the number one hero in the Hero Association, yet he never actually shows up and does anything, and the association has no way to control or even contact him. Yet he has the permanent #1 rank because he is just so strong that they can't afford to ignore or demote him, even though he hasn't fought a villain for years and no one knows where he is.

We know Jiren is a better hero than Blast because we see him actually doing his job, so it's not surprising that the authorities of Universe 11 grant him so much leeway.

Interesting parallel. I've never read One Punch Man so I didn't know about Blast.

What I wonder is what goes through Jiren's mind that compels him to don the banner of a cooperative militia and identify with them. Is it simply out of convenience for his pursuance of ridding the universe of evil that he does so? Maybe there's less hassle with having the stamp of approval from authorities than to serve as a vigilante who's suspected by at least some like the Great Saiyaman in U7. Those are just my thoughts, however.

[TobyS]

I thought the manga made it clear jirens master told him to join the pride troopers.

He didn't tell him why, which was that he wanted him to learn teamwork...

So Jiren was there for years as confused as you were, I think assuming it was just for training.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I think the time to pull the trigger on Evil Goku was during the ToP. All the pieces were there with Goku's battle junkie finally having the potential to lead to tangible consequences and him lying to his closest friends about what was happening. But even then the series doubled down on him being infallible. The Naruto speech at the end closed the door on Goku ever credibly being depicted as the bad guy.

So, to me, adding an evil Goku now would feel like a publicity stunt which the franchise really doesn't need right now.

[Melee_Sovereign]

I was hoping Goku Black would have been a creation of Zamasu rather than actually be him. Zamasu could have been the one that gave Goku the heart virus, which then turned him evil.