"What's Wrong with Dragon Ball Z"

[Kaboom]

Off Topic: I never understood why Kakashi Gaiden wasn't animated.

Because you dont need it to understand the main story?

We didn't need 80 weeks of filler.

Plus, depending on how things play out in upcoming chapters, we may end up needing that animated after all to make sense of things.

[pimpsage86]

I don't agree with most of what the article says.We're blaiming DB for being so original and revolutionary becuase other shows copied it?

The comparisan to Samurai Jack is irrelevent because the action in both shows is fundamentaly different.Jack doesn't use anything besides basic weapon skills that are straight foward and don't need explanation.If I saw the after-image tech. or solar flare, or Kaio-Ken without an explanation I'd be straching my head and wondering what's going on.

You can't say a series is too long when the manga is or was still going.The fact that the author wants the anime to not follow the manga is ridiculus.FMA is a glaring exception of when an anime can be better than the manga when it is taken in a new direction not the rule.

Recycled animation was a neccessary evil in the days before computers did the majority of animations.Not to say that it doesn't annoy me and would be considered unacceptable in more modern shows, the fact that the anime is decades old has to be taken into consideration.

All genres are guilty of villians with poor motives because honestly motives aren't that important.It's the character of the villian that's important.Lex Luthor,Joker, and Darseid all have standard reasons for being villians but what makes them good bad guys is that they have the personality to make them interesting and that's what DB has.

Lack of strong female characters in a manga aimed at young boys shouldn't be so strange.The vast majority of western comics and cartoons do it too.The only time a strong female character comes into the story most of the time is when she's a stand alone hero that has a cameo or is one of the leads.The fact that so many MALE characters were thrown by the wayside also needs to taken into consideration.

With the exception of the saiyan saga no alliens came to the planet got killed and then more came.In early DB they fought Pilaf for the dragon balls.Then they had a tourny, and went looking for the db again and bad guys started coming to them.Piccolo killed a lot of people and was going to conquer the world and had to be stopped.Namek had the heros GO TO the villians because of nessesity not want.The Cyborbs and Cell came from an old enemy for revenge.Not until the Buu saga did another allien come to threaten the earth.

Seeing as Mr. Popo kicks all kinds of ass and isn't human I can't see him being a racist symbol.Dude from the RR army on the other hand....

You can't hold fans against a series because then you'd have to do it evenly with all shows.And the most hated fanboys would probably either be Superman or Batman ones.

The dub was horrible.No armunents there.But you can't blame one bad dub for all the other crappy dubs out there.

All in all I think the article was pretty useless.

[Vhanos]

Bah, that whole thing was junk. The person doing the article says "Everyone knows the good side of DBZ; the merits of the franchise are discussed in many areas. But not everyone seriously talks about the faults of the franchise, and the bad habits that it has encouraged in both the industry and the fan base." then follows that up by saying "We're not really interested in bashing DBZ just for the sake of bashing DBZ. That would be pointless – and honestly you can go to any anime forum and find plenty of that already.". Where has this person been? It has "everyone seriously talks about the faults of the franchise" all the time. Just about any forum you go to it has that. If anything, it is the other way around. There are more people that less talk about the merits of the franchise.

Was there really any difference with parts 2 and 1? Decent article, but we have all heard what the author is saying.

No. And you're right, that person doing the article hasn't said anything I or many other fans haven't heard countless times before.

Most of them in my opinion are somewhat angry at the level of success Dragonball has had across the globe. Either that, or they just do it based on their knowledge of the dub.

Or both. But what can you say? I guess that when there is something that is seen to be on top, there is going to be envy. The dub, I know where the criticism of it comes from with that like the grunting stuff.

Neither Piccolo or Cell had that vulnerable moment that typically stirs Goku to insane acts of kindness.

Piccolo, I see why. Cell, he is more tricky. Because he carries multiple traits of previous characters before him.

DB really just had better action. DB was just better than Z for the most part as well.

IMHO it's the other way around. Z is more popular and the franchise evolved for a reason. Z has the better action. I just find that the more times the characters engaging in a battle landing more hits on each other is more fun and better. I liked the fight with 17 vs Piccolo in the Cell saga and the Goku vs Majin Vegeta fight in the Buu saga. Those surpassed most of the fights in the 153 episodes of DB.

The biggest problem with DB/Z in america is how DB wasn't seen as marketable and so was skipped.

There was a dub for the first 13 or so episodes of Pilaf. From what I am trying to remember is because it didn't do so well. I will go out on a limb and say that action sells. That is why I think DBZ was looked at more when invested upon.

Definitely. Even though I prefer Z, I do enjoy the fights in Dragonball because it introduces martial arts and makes every fight more of a battle of skill rather than the stronger guy wins.

I like the fights in Z more because there are fights that has me going "did you see what he just did? I want to see again" and gets me more excited because of it.

^^ That's the thing that drew me to Yu Yu Hakusho. Fights being decided by the smarter or more determined fighter, not the one with the biggest energy beam. Black Dragon Wave not withstanding. Even by the end, when fights are very DBZ-ish, we still have Yusuke worrying about how he uses his Spirite Gun, and how one uses their ki (and which type). Hell, Kurama wins a fight at the end after deliberately choosing to ignore his vastly more powerful demonic form and go at it as a very weak (compared to the high class demons involved) human.

When were fights in DBZ decided by who has the biggest energy beam? I've seen YYH. But I don't find what you said about what you said to be overly thrilling. Fights decided by the smarter or more determined fighter is overrated to me. Fights are at their best and most exciting when there is plenty of engagment in its movement.

I don't agree with most of what the article says.We're blaiming DB for being so original and revolutionary becuase other shows copied it?

If that is the case, then it's lame.

All genres are guilty of villians with poor motives because honestly motives aren't that important.It's the character of the villian that's important.Lex Luthor,Joker, and Darseid all have standard reasons for being villians but what makes them good bad guys is that they have the personality to make them interesting and that's what DB has.

I agree with everything here. I'll add to that with Marvel villains like Galactus, Magneto, Dr. Doom, and others. Motives are secondary to personality when it comes to capturing my interest in villains.



I want to speak on why I don't think the fillers are all that bad but currently I spoke long enough. I will have some rest for the moment.

[Adamant]

The biggest problem with DB/Z in america is how DB wasn't seen as marketable and so was skipped.

There was a dub for the first 13 or so episodes of Pilaf. From what I am trying to remember is because it didn't do so well. I will go out on a limb and say that action sells. That is why I think DBZ was looked at more when invested upon.

Eh, I don't know. While the Pilaf saga is awesome, the Pilaf saga with everything not conforming to American Saturday Morning Cartoon TV standards edited out is considerably less so. Dragonball becomes a lot more Soccer Mom friendly once the 21st Budoukai rolls around (with the exception of one particular fight), so I think they made a mistake by dropping it so early.

[VegettoEX]

For all you people whining that the article says "nothing new" that hasn't already been brought to the table before...

For the last fucking time, this article wasn't written for you. Like a FUNimation marketing scheme it does its job beautifully by getting *you* all riled up, but the information presented in it isn't for you.

And for god's sake, please put space after your periods...

[Onikage725]

For all you people whining that the article says "nothing new" that hasn't already been brought to the table before...

For the last fucking time, this article wasn't written for you. Like a FUNimation marketing scheme it does its job beautifully by getting *you* all riled up, but the information presented in it isn't for you.

And for god's sake, please put space after your periods...

Like I quoted from the article before...

"Maybe it's justified since many believe it's just a "kids" show, but most DBZ fans see it as more than that so the show should be held to higher standards."

So, I get where you're coming from, and I agree to a point. However, the writer doesn't get a pass on the hardcore fans' opinion when he cites the hardcore fans' as the reason he's being so "critical."

[Vekurotto]

DB really just had better action. DB was just better than Z for the most part as well.

IMHO it's the other way around. Z is more popular and the franchise evolved for a reason. Z has the better action. I just find that the more times the characters engaging in a battle landing more hits on each other is more fun and better. I liked the fight with 17 vs Piccolo in the Cell saga and the Goku vs Majin Vegeta fight in the Buu saga. Those surpassed most of the fights in the 153 episodes of DB.

See that's the thing though, some of the post Freeza saga DBZ fights more often than not were some of the least engaging things I've seen in Dragonball. I do like a lot of the action in the Boo saga particularly Kid Boo vs. SSJ3 Goku because the attacks they were doing to each other were very unique. But a whole lot of fights in Z are just...blah. I don't know the wording at all but, they never struck me the way that DB's fights did where they actually looked like there was some sort of effort being placed on critical areas, pointing out your opponent's errors, and how a tiny fuckup can kill you.

When were fights in DBZ decided by who has the biggest energy beam?

We're not talking about the how the biggest power waves or ki blasts determine the winner (even though it did happen) rather it is a fact that in DBZ, mostly after Nappa and Vegeta, that the winners were 90% of the time determined on who was the strongest while DB didn't.

Take nearly all of the conflicts in Z. Apart from Goku/Kuririn/Gohan/Yajirobe vs Vegeta nearly all of the fights were determined by who was stronger, rahter than some other external factors like luck or strategy. Freeza was killed because Trunks was simply stronger, same with #19. And many of the cell saga fights winners were determined by who was stronger. I know that's the nature of the show and you can't change it but it just got really tiresome to watch the, "Guy A is weaker than Guy B and Guy C is better than both of them therefore he wins" formula always happening. Which is exactly why I liked Hokuto No Ken 1 and regard it highly. It passed off the message that "Guy C can be stronger than Guys A and B, but that doesn't mean he's better than them nor does he have an automatic pass on winning."

[Onikage725]

@ Vhanos- Pretty much what Vekurotto just said. As far as DB and YYH go, I'd seen most of DBZ before seeing either show in any sort of concerted chronological run. My head was chock full of images of guys disappearing from view, some flashy lines criss-crossing with thunderous echoes, rapid fire punches and kicks that were so fast that you couldn't really see what was going on, large energy beams, etc. And its all very dramatic. I dont want you to mistake my comments as a put down on Z. But every single fight, with the rare exception, was pre-determined. And if there was an unexpected shift, its because the weaker guy lucked into a power up. Strategy, at the end of the day, meant precisely dick.
Then comes shows like DB and YYH. They have the same kind of combat and power useage as DBZ (ditto Fist of the North Star/Hokuto no Ken), but conflicts don't always seem clear at the outset (except against minor foes). I also liked the useage of ki. YYH went into different types of ki. Each character had unique applications. Both shows let you see characters develop their powers. And the early days of the DB series (referring to the whole series, Z included) as well as YYH up until the showdown with Sensui had a heavy ephasis on tactics. Tactics is an important thing to me. I think if Cell had died by Goku's clever use of Shunkan Idou to bypass his defenses and deliver a devestating point blank Kamehameha it would have had more impact than ending on a simple blast duel, at least to me, and purely from a "picking apart the battle" standpoint.

[Rocketman]

Take nearly all of the conflicts in Z. Apart from Goku/Kuririn/Gohan/Yajirobe vs Vegeta nearly all of the fights were determined by who was stronger, rahter than some other external factors like luck or strategy.

First, what strategy are you expecting to work against someone like Majin Buu?

Second, strategy was employed throughout the series. Like, say, Krillin's Solar Flare/Destructo-Disk combo against Freeza. Vegeta and Goku exploiting the zenkai. Trunks didn't beat Freeza so easily because he was stronger, but because he cut Freeza instead of using blunt trauma. Vegeta bluffed Dr. Gero into fleeing. Piccolo bluffed Cell into talking so he could regenerate. Bulma invented a "turn-off" button for the Androids after the Z fighters got whooped (of course, that plan failed because Krillin thought with his dick). Goku's Warp Kamehameha that failed only because the Author wanted Gohan to be the hero.

[SonEric84]

The whole Mr. Popo is racist thing really bugs the hell out of me. He's not even a human being...not once did I ever look at Mr. Popo and think anything of it. That's just people being overly sensitive and digging for issues where there aren't any.

[Chuquita]

Because you dont need it to understand the main story?

We didn't need 80 weeks of filler.

Plus, depending on how things play out in upcoming chapters, we may end up needing that animated after all to make sense of things.

I have a friend who's trying to animate that entire special in flash. I don't know how far she's gotten with it though.

[Onikage725]

Take nearly all of the conflicts in Z. Apart from Goku/Kuririn/Gohan/Yajirobe vs Vegeta nearly all of the fights were determined by who was stronger, rahter than some other external factors like luck or strategy.

First, what strategy are you expecting to work against someone like Majin Buu?

Second, strategy was employed throughout the series. Like, say, Krillin's Solar Flare/Destructo-Disk combo against Freeza. Vegeta and Goku exploiting the zenkai. Trunks didn't beat Freeza so easily because he was stronger, but because he cut Freeza instead of using blunt trauma. Vegeta bluffed Dr. Gero into fleeing. Piccolo bluffed Cell into talking so he could regenerate. Bulma invented a "turn-off" button for the Androids after the Z fighters got whooped (of course, that plan failed because Krillin thought with his dick). Goku's Warp Kamehameha that failed only because the Author wanted Gohan to be the hero.

It isnt that there was no strategy, its that the strategy stopped being important beyond simply making certain situations look cool. Look at the Trunks example- it was about the power. Toriyama specifically makes that point when Trunks faces off with Cold. Cold makes the mistake of thinking what you just said, gets his hands on the sword and thinks he has an advantage, and is swiftly blown away. Kuririn's stall tactic was great, but there was no way in hell he was going to take out Freeza. Piccolo worked up Cell cuz he was vastly stronger. Cell ate some people and then took down Piccolo. Bulma's switch was worthless pretty much. Rather than using it, the story is written so that it is destroyed. Not to mention, if Vegeta hadn't gotten over-confident, his power advantage over Cell was overwhelming and would have been sufficient. And I just mentioned Goku's attack- would have been a nice finisher, but Cell just regenerates. There was more weight given to using the RoSaT to milk more power out of SSJ than there was to any sort of intelligent "outside the box" thought. Hell, the smartest solution was when Bulma said to find the lab before the deadline, and the other characters shut her down.

[Anonymous Friend]

The whole Mr. Popo is racist thing really bugs the hell out of me. He's not even a human being...not once did I ever look at Mr. Popo and think anything of it. That's just people being overly sensitive and digging for issues where there aren't any.

It upsets me too. It's like saying that I'm sexist because I have to lift some heavy furniture and I ask mt male friends and not my female ones.

I have to say that I also agree with Vekurotto and Onikage about the fighting in the series. There is a noticable difference in the battles from Dragon Ball to Dragonball Z. And GT just follows the lead. In Z it's a gradual change that you don't really catch until the Andriods show up. I know one of my gripes about the series was the fighting. After a while it became the "we're gonna have them move around really fast and no one can see them, then when you can see them they're gonna clash and hit each other really fast for a few seconds". After a while it just got so repetitive that it started turning me off to the series.

[caejones]

Hmm.
When I hear "repetative plot", I think "alien attacks earth, Heroes fight and somehow get a powerup in time to save the day". Which actually is more prevalent in the movies than the series...
The series,on the other hand, is more like...

- intro to characters (Pilaf "saga", Tenshinhan filler, Raditz, Saiyaman)
- Training (with Kamesen'nin, in pre-Tenshinhan filler, with Kami and Popo, with Kaio and Piccolo, with Videl, Gohan and Goten)
- Tournament (21, 22, 23, Saibamen and the saiya(ji)ns? 25)
- and then the climactic quest branches off of the tournament (RRA, Piccolo Daimao, Namek, Buu... and Goku's wedding? )
- Culminating in a series of dramatic fights with increasing ranks and transformations (RRA (Silver, white, blue, TaoPaipai, Black, Black+Mecha, Baba's fighters, Pilaf Mecha), Piccolo (Cymbal, Tamberine, Old Daimao, Drum, young Daimao), Ginyu and Freeza(with all his transformations), Dabura, then a bunch of zany Buus (... and... umm... Goku Chichi Mt Five Elements filler?)).
- And Goku saves the day (by kicking every ass in the RRA single-handedly, along with winning Baba's tournament and beating Pilaf; by delivering the finishing blow on Daimao; by kicking Freeza to pieces; by laying the smackdown on Buu with the Spirit Bomb from Earth (which I guess is synonymous with hell) (And by filling th hole in the mystical furnace in his lovely filler honeymoon adventure?)).

Cell appears to be the only exception to that formula (although the Saiyan-Freeza arc was a super creative take on it). Arguably even Cell includes those features in some capacity (intro (Trunks), training (Driving~! RoSaT!), tournament (Cell Games), rising levels of bad guys (more and more Jinzouningen... Transforming Cell!)). But they're all out of order and Goku doesn't deliver the finishing blow. And Cell is the only time where the villain doesn't survive into the next arc (Pilaf, TaoPaipai, Piccolo, Freeza, and Buu all made it to the next saga).

... Whatever that's worth.

[laserkid]

I felt the article was well written - and at least shows REAL flaws in DBZ. I'm hoping this will spur the DBZ hate to be a little more intelligent, because I am so tired of "DBZ sucks" with little to no rationale. I just wish they would do a companion series that shows the merrits of the shows they do in this style (as this is stated to be a whats wrong with series of articles) - because that is the one thing I disagree with in the article.

Outside of the old "In Defense of DBZ" IRC chat logs from way back in the day, there's actually very little in the way of articles explaining the show's merrits.

[tarrin4ever]

For all you people whining that the article says "nothing new" that hasn't already been brought to the table before...

Even for non DBZ fans this is very little here they probably didn't think already. Let alone it being correct info.

The show never ends, almost everybody knows that. Expositional Battles, always a commonly cited as reasons why people don't want to watch DBZ. One could crack a joke about either one of those in regards to Dragonball, and more often than not the non-fan will get it.

The good points they brought up were some of their comments on the dub, on how it never ends, and maybe just a few points from the bit on the boys better than girls.

but all the rest of their points are just plain stupid. Their model of the recycled plotline really doesn't resemble how the story goes (unless you count the movies, those pretty much do follow that formula). They chose to gripe about Popo rather than actual real black face inspired character Assistant Black, not that that's a valid argument for not liking Dragonball in any universe I've been to. Even their comment on Endless Levels of Power was poorly executed, I know very few shonen shows that get around not making their characters more and more powerful as the series goes on (some could argue the Buu saga and GT didn't completely follow that ideology).

Complaining about recycled animation from a show from the late-eighties/early-nineties is practically akin to complaining that theirs too much singing in a 90's Disney movie.

Out of their 11 points, 3 might have held some merit, while 4 of them feel just plain wrong, and 2 of them were no brainers (even to non-fans). The other 2 points (Antagonist and fanboys) hardly feel like DBZ problems. Maybe shonen problems in general?

I agree with Laserkid, I'm curious to see what they'd write as "What's Good About DBZ". Any fansite with a review section could write a set of these "problems" with the series, lets see what they think are actual good points to the show.

They'd probably have to call in someone who actually knows the show well this time.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

Shouldn't there be an implied distinction between the intellectual property and its fanbase, anyway? Citing an unsavory fanbase as a flaw of a cartoon show is kind of like saying the Internet and 4chan are the same thing. What people do with the cartoon show should have nothing to do with the merits of the subject matter.

Just saying.

[VegettoEX]

Shouldn't there be an implied distinction between the intellectual property and its fanbase, anyway? Citing an unsavory fanbase as a flaw of a cartoon show is kind of like saying the Internet and 4chan are the same thing. What people do with the cartoon show should have nothing to do with the merits of the subject matter.

Just saying.

I disagree. What if you want to take that fandom to a new level? You hit a brick wall, because if you're someone like me, you're up against a mass of seemingly illiterate children who don't have any interest in discussing the same sorts of things about the show as you do and would rather regurgitate internet memes (see below) and speak in fanon that you simply do not understand and cannot connect with.

Casual fandom (ie - by yourself) and more-hardcore fandom (ie - coexisting with the fanbase) are two different types of fandom, but they are fandoms of the same thing, none-the-less. It is a flaw of the show, because its limitations, nuances, achievements, etc. are the reasons that it brings the fans it does. I hate to keep using the same phrase, but it's a series and fandom you like in spite of its deficiencies, which further speaks volumes about its inherent positive qualities.

And yes, we have unfortunately reached a point where 4chan and the internet are the same thing, but that's a discussion for another day.

I'm finding it unsettling and ironic that as the maintainer of a gigantic DB fansite for over a decade, I seem to be the sole champion of a series of articles against said series. That's not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, but it certainly is interesting!

[laserkid]

On the fandom. I hate to say it but fandom actually does tend to have an impact on the shows should they be exceptionally virulent to criticisms towards their favorate show (see also: Cowboy Bebop fanbase, just TRY to say the show is less then perfect and watch the meltdown begin).

I am actually more active in communities that are largely anti DBZ (Which to my annoyance has prevented me, by a down vote on my website's staff, to link to Daizex >.<). From being in very close contact with people who don't much like DBZ I can tell you YES. The DBZ fandom at large IS one of the major gripes I hear all the time. DBZ fans make it absolutely impossible to try to enjoy the show despite its flaws because what do DBZ fans do (stereotypically speaking, in being a longtime member to this forum and the two forums before it, though usually lurking these days, I need to note I'm stereotyping myself too, this is not out of malice).

What is it DBZ fans do? Look at this thread. While I am certainly in agreement it would be nice to have a companion series of articles to the whats wrong with articles, I stated this in regards to an idea as a whole, though I did mention that DBZ really doesn't have much in he way of pointing out its strengths, the immidiate response was DBZ centered.

What I'm trying to say here is we DBZ fans often try to play the victim card. The whole "HELP HELP I'M BEING REPRESSED!" thing doesn't do much in the way of sympathy when it's leveled every time someone criticizes the show.

What's worse we have a tendancy for NASTY infighting (back in the day subbie vs dubbie, today orange brick Vs. Dragon Box) - we can't just be content united in our love of a show there's this whole elitist versus the idiot part to us.

That's not to say we fans as a whole are bad but really look at this forum, and try to tell me we don't have these infights to severe degrees. That very reason was a major factor for me more or less lurking, and not posting nearly as often, or as much as I once did in the past.

These are just observations right here, in Daizex, quite literally the MOST intelligent DBZ fanbase I have ever had the pleasure of being a part of. I think you all know where this is going next. So instead of saying it myself, a picture is worth a thousand words - I know. I know, thats not us. At least I hope it isn't but like all stereotypes there is a basis for it, and there are a LOT of DBZ fans like that.

When the fanbase is the stupid at times, that virulent at times, and even that trite to fight amongst itself at times it can EASILY be considered a major detraction from getting into the show in the first place.

Why is that? Look at it from the outsiders point of view. Why would you WANT to get yourself involve din a fanbase thats liable to chop you up and eat you rather then talk with you about DBZ both the good, AND the bad?

[Herms]

I'm finding it unsettling and ironic that as the maintainer of a gigantic DB fansite for over a decade, I seem to be the sole champion of a series of articles against said series. That's not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, but it certainly is interesting!

Do you mean that you're the only champion of it here? I'd assume IGN is also sticking up for it, at the very least.

About fandom as a flaw of the show: OK, so I haven't read the actual article (it not being targeted towards me and all), or all of this thread (looks kinda ugly), so forgive me if this has already been addressed, but how does the idea of fandom as a flaw take into account different fan communities, in both space and time? Do fans in America and the English speaking world behave like fans in Japan? How about the fans in France, or Mexico? Isn’t refereeing to ‘the fandom’ as if it were some sort of unified, Borg-like entity generalizing far too much to be meaningful?

Someone on this board (Olivier Hague?) once said that the Japanese fan community was much calmer compared to the English one. Does that make it a better show there? I've also heard it said that things are calmer today in the English fan community than they were during, say, when Funimation's season 3 of the dub was airing on Cartoon Network. Does that mean the show has improved in the years since then? Not to get into regional conflicts, but a lot of people on the board have favorably compared this message board and its users to other Dragon Ball-dedicated message boards. Does that make it a better show here than there?

I guess my overall point is that while the qualities of the show do determine what kind of fans it attracts, that’s not the only factor that can determine it, and these other factors can often be contingent. The big example in America is how Funimation has handled the series. A huge part of the culture of American Dragon Ball fandom comes from that in various ways, but obviously things would have turned out very differently had another company licensed it or Funimation had handled it differently.