"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[batistabus]

I don't think Beerus has a reason to interfere at this point. It's entirely possible that could change, but I don't see that being motivated by a desire to raise Universe 7's human level.

Although, if the Super DBs are used to revive everyone killed by Moro (I not sure if Shenlong or Porunga could revive everyone killed since Moro escaped from the GPP), and that has the consequence of bringing back the people killed by Moro millions of years ago, thus incidentally bumping U7 up to 4th from the bottom, and expanding the possibilities of worlds and premises within the DB universe, that could work.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I don't think Beerus has a reason to interfere at this point. It's entirely possible that could change, but I don't see that being motivated by a desire to raise Universe 7's human level.

Although, if the Super DBs are used to revive everyone killed by Moro (I not sure if Shenlong or Porunga could revive everyone killed since Moro escaped from the GPP), and that has the consequence of bringing back the people killed by Moro millions of years ago, thus incidentally bumping U7 up to 4th from the bottom, and expanding the possibilities of worlds and premises within the DB universe, that could work.

Beerus shouldn't care, the guy is fishing and doesn't care. That ain't gonna change anytime soon. He'd only do so if the cards were aligned up in a way to give him a decent reason to intrude on the Moro situation. Even then, if he did get involved it's for his own selfish reasons. This ain't his arc, they're probably just going to have Beerus go off screen during the fight to show how little he cares.

I do firmly believe divine intervention will be required for Moro to be put down for good, but I doubt it'll be by Beerus's hand. Either Merus or even Whis will pull a angelic sacrifice when Goku and Vegeta are trying to deliver the final push to Moro's demise and need an extra hand. Cause you know, I imagine on the brink of death Moro will pull some shit to keep himself afloat and that may require some angelic intrusion and given Whis's role of protecting Merus, I doubt he'll let him die so easily.

I'm not sure if they'll revive any of those Moro's killed, they might try to keep these death's permanent to ensure the arc isn't reversible. Hell I imagine Moro's gonna destroy Earth's dragon balls cause Gohan just had to mention them and make sure his damage can't be undone.

[TKA]

This is something the English fandom is annoyingly guilty of.

"Beerus and Whis being around killed all tension." - every movie

"Beerus and Whis not doing anything kills all tension." - every arc

It's complaints when the franchise does something different and complaints when it sticks to formula. Beerus and Whis are observers who may decide to help out here and there. Super is, exempting the tournament of power, not like the previous Dragonball where the stakes were always at the highest they could possibly be, and that's fine.

You know why that's fine? Because we already have the original manga. We don't need to keep living in that space.

[wolflonnie]

This is something the English fandom is annoyingly guilty of.

"Beerus and Whis being around killed all tension." - every movie

"Beerus and Whis not doing anything kills all tension." - every arc

It's complaints when the franchise does something different and complaints when it sticks to formula. Beerus and Whis are observers who may decide to help out here and there. Super is, exempting the tournament of power, not like the previous Dragonball where the stakes were always at the highest they could possibly be, and that's fine.

You know why that's fine? Because we already have the original manga. We don't need to keep living in that space.

While that complain annoys me to the highest level possible, it would be cool to actually see Beerus or Whis don't give af to a serious/very dire situation that is right in front of their eyes.

[The Undying]

This ain't his arc

I couldn't possibly stress this enough.

I feel it's the "character stagnation" complaints that are really missing the point and looking at things out of context. This all seems to stem from people not grasping basic storytelling principles, generally placing way too much emphasis on real life hypotheticals (i.e. "this is what they should have done!") rather than character roles, allegories, authorial intent, etc.

You don't just hand development off to every Tom, Dick and Harry like you're collecting Pokemon cards. That's where fanfiction writers typically go wrong. It has to benefit the story's themes. For example, showing that mortals could succeed where the gods failed at raising the quality of their universe was an underlying message of the Universe Survival arc. It was about them, not a single one of the gods.

Character development is only appropriate when it concerns the characters the narrative actually revolves around, not flavor text like Beerus.

Anything else is masturbatory fanservice that doesn't serve the plot. Worse, turning Beerus into a caring Hakaishin actively diminishes what the tournament's resolution was trying to convey in the first place.

[Mister_Popo]

This ain't his arc

I couldn't possibly stress this enough.

I feel it's the "character stagnation" complaints that are really missing the point and looking at things out of context. This all seems to stem from people not grasping basic storytelling principles, generally placing way too much emphasis on real life hypotheticals (i.e. "this is what they should have done!") rather than character roles, allegories, authorial intent, etc.

You don't have to change a character completely in order to make him / her more intresting within the broader story.
In the contrary. Beerus can still be a badass and asshole, even after he has been somehow involved in a fight.
He just has to keep some of his characteristics thereafter in order to remain recognizable.
There is an essential difference between role within the story at a certain moment and character traits.

Just like it would be more intresting for Gohan (the forever student that doubts if he can follow his fathers footsteps or still wants to be the family man), Goten (the forever babychild) or Piccolo (the one that always sweats when impressed by Gokus yet again improved power level, but basically always is fodder himself), Vegeta (the one that always comes next to Goku and in many cases is fodder too) to get another role in the story then what's classic. There is nothing that kills a story more than confirmation. Same with Beerus (the forever lazy God that does not fight, while fights are basically essential within DB to manifest a character, if you like it or not ...).

And ... even if DBS likes to revisit the tropes, it still would remain refreshing for the reader to get some exceptions at least from time to time to let him involved.

Sometimes it's funny to conclude how some (not all!) of the people that are complaining about DBS tropes, including Gohan, Piccolo, Tien or other characters being not enough involved and only serving as fodder, are now laughing loudly with every potentially argument that could defend Beerus getting a more active role in an unexpected moment, which may very surprisingly make him more intresting as a character if presented in the right way (excecution, as always, as we know, is everything) at the end.

[The Undying]

You don't have to change a character completely in order to make him / her more intresting within the broader story.
In the contrary. Beerus can still be a badass and asshole, even after he has been somehow involved in a fight.

It's precisely the "I need my favorite characters X, Y and Z to get involved!" expectation that thoroughly skews whatever any given story might aim to communicate. That's my point.

You can't please everyone. It's an impossible task at the outset, and to even attempt it would result in bloat.

[Mister_Popo]

You don't have to change a character completely in order to make him / her more intresting within the broader story.
In the contrary. Beerus can still be a badass and asshole, even after he has been somehow involved in a fight.

It's precisely the "I need my favorite characters X, Y and Z to get involved!" expectation that thoroughly skews whatever any given story might aim to communicate. That's my point.

You can't please everyone. It's an impossible task at the outset, and to even attempt it would result in bloat.

Yes, but without having a pronounced Beerus fetish personally, it's been since the Gods pre-TOP fight and his fight with Vegeta before that since he's been really closely involved somehow in the story, while he has been introduced as one of the main characters of DBS from the beginning. If he would have gotten involved after all this time suddenly somehow, i wouldn't actually call it predictable storywriting in the least. I had almost forgotten Beerus actually existed before i saw him fishing.

[Miracles]

Beerus intervening in the story is simply unnecessary. The bad guy is for Goku/Vegeta's growth. Fueling both to reach Beeru's level. Secondly, Beerus's existence or interest's itself is not in a dire situation yet. He only acted against Zamasu and against Freeza in RoF on that regard. Making Beerus come in and take care of a villain that the protagonist's has not fully utilized for development, towards their end, which is facing Beerus, would be defeating Toriyama's narrative.

The usual problem with a wide majority of the DB fanbase is it's always been fanservice crazy. When they read DB they do it with a scouter on their face. Just looking for battle power numbers and not really paying attention to the dialogue. Wanting Beerus now doesn't do our main casters any good. The show is about them, Moro is here to feed them. Not for Beerus to give the crowd a wow factor right now.

[batistabus]

He'd only do so if the cards were aligned up in a way to give him a decent reason to intrude on the Moro situation. Even then, if he did get involved it's for his own selfish reasons.

Agreed.

I do firmly believe divine intervention will be required for Moro to be put down for good, but I doubt it'll be by Beerus's hand. Either Merus or even Whis will pull a angelic sacrifice when Goku and Vegeta are trying to deliver the final push to Moro's demise and need an extra hand.

I think a Merus sacrifice is somewhat likely (there's sufficient foreshadowing), but I think a Whis sacrifice is impossible for both story and meta reasons. I don't think Super ends with this arc, and I don't think there's a Super without Beerus and Whis. Since this feels like Toyotaro's arc, and Merus seems to be Toyotaro's character (despite Toriyama suggesting he be an angel in training), he's much more expendable. Still, Merus could sacrifice his life to fight Moro, be erased by the Great Priest/Zeno, and still end up coming back to life somehow, so who knows. Story-wise, Merus is struggling to come to terms with the angelic code while Whis understands it well.

I'm not sure if they'll revive any of those Moro's killed, they might try to keep these death's permanent to ensure the arc isn't reversible. Hell I imagine Moro's gonna destroy Earth's dragon balls cause Gohan just had to mention them and make sure his damage can't be undone.

I can't see this happening, either. Vegeta tells Goku he needs to make sure that the Namekians are revived when this is all said and done, so I feel like that's definitely going to happen. Also, the original manga ends with the line "But somehow they'll always get through...and the Dragon Balls will be there for them!"

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Its in Merus's character but.....I feel like Whis won't LET Merus make the sacrifice. I imagine Merus would want to, but would Whis let him? No. He's literally responsible for what happens to him, he made himself his guardian to prevent Merus from dying.

Whis was backflipping hoops and going out of his way to keep Merus alive. I doubt Whis would let him do it because A. made a promise to Daddy dearest to keep him alive, and B. I doubt Whis is a fan of Moro either, you know with him casually devouring the universe? Whis did say earlier in the convo with the Grand Minister that he was a bit disappointed with how Universe 7 turned out given how restless his Universe is with all these Universal threats popping out of the woodwork.

Not that I blame him, his kai is incompetent and not properly trained for his job, his GoD is a lazy bum who doesn't do his job unless it literally aligns to his selfish guidelines. This fucker allowed a frost demon, a wad of evil bubblegum and a planet eating goat run around and cause chaos across the galaxy because of he was an asshole. And the fate of said Universe relies on a optimistic goofball and an asshole prince picking up the bill of Beerus's tomfoolery while Whis watches from afar.

Whis knows the law, but that doesn't mean he can't do it. Since when has knowing a law stop people from trying to break it?

Whis has always seemed like one of the angels who cares for their Universe a bit more, and I think if pushed he could do it. Not because he wants to, but because he doesn't want Universe 7 to get any worse, because if Moro is just allowed to run around it's going to be bad. If Moro isn't killed at some point there is way Universe 7 can recover as a whole. As long as Moro breathes he's a threat.

I feel like if Merus would try to go to Earth, Whis would just stop him for reasons listed above. We don't know the strength gap between them, but I imagine Whis could literally knock Merus out to keep him out of the conflict for good. I mean, do you really think Whis wouldn't do that if he had to?

If Whis did the sacrifice, what the hell is Merus gonna do? Try to stop him physically? I imagine the gap of strength is large enough that any attempt on Merus's part to stop him would just end with Merus getting knocked unconscious.

Even though I like both Whis and Merus, I feel they should let Merus do something. I'd like to see him actually do something with his angel in training thing, instead of just killing him off. Feel like it would be wasted not to do something with the concept.

If any angel dies, I hope to all things they make it permanent. In a series where killing people is easy, but keeping them dead is a pain, let someone be killed off for real. Either because of divine intervention of time manipulation or because of the orange wishing balls.

I say it isn't out of the realm of possibility. I understand your disagreements but I'm just providing a statement no one has talked about yet. Can easily be wrong, but they haven't fully written it yet so we'll have to see how things end. We can disagree but as long as we respect each other we'll be cool.

This arc can end many ways.They're not above killing popular characters, it's just that due to plot power they can just go like. "YO DRAGON BALLS! WISH EM BACK PLS!" Goku's died like three times counting Frieza having a meltdown destroying Earth. They're fine with killing popular characters, but keeping them dead is....a pain in the ass.

I don't think they would mention the dragon balls unless something was gonna happen with them. He literally said that right in earshot of Moro. And we know how Moro is, probably would either destroy them or use them to his advantage because why not? Its free wishes, who wouldn't jump on the idea.

What Gohan said was,"HEY DAD, YOU REMEMBER THOSE ORANGE BALLS THAT GRANT WISHES? WE HAVE THEM AT DENDE'S PLACE, WHICH IS COMPLETELY SAFE AND ALSO ON THIS PLANET WE'RE ON! I'M ALSO SAYING THIS RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE PLANET EATING LUNATIC, HOPE HE DOESN'T TRY DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THIS! TOTALLY WON'T BITE US IN THE ASS WHEN MORO GETS SERIOUS!"

[emperior]

Merus will be the one breaking the Angels’ law.

I believe that Merus being removed from the arc where he was basically the protagonist + the whole dialogue about what happens to Angels who go against their code is sufficient foreshadowing for something like this to happen.

Whis is not a problem because we don’t know what Merus is capable of, nor what the Angels themselves can really do. He might have a technique against which Whis can’t do anything (maybe using the staff?). Point is, if the plot wants Merus to escape from Whis without the latter being able to do anything about that, then it will happen somehow.

My personal bet is that Merus will actually rewind time once Moro kills everyone, and either get involved physically or telepathically coach Goku and Vegeta on what to do to win. Maybe this way he won’t actually break the Angels’ laws.
But I actually expect the arc to end with Merus’ erasure.

[Matches Malone]

I actually expect the arc to end with Merus’ erasure.

Same here, as he doesn't seem to be written with longevity in mind. I think UI is going to backfire on Goku, resulting in Vegeta coming in last minute to finish the fight, only for 73 to stop him before he can deliver the final blow. Moro might have some universe absorbing technique that will force Merus to stop him, only to be erased by the gran priest. I could be wrong, but it seems like DB isn't interested in allowing one character to do everything, so winning a fight is now separate from finishing it.

[batistabus]

Merus is a slippery guy. He was able to fight Moro with human strength. If anyone could sneak past Whis, it would be him. Also, I don't see Whis as the type of guy to physically restrain Merus. Whis has done what he can to help his younger brother, but he's already stuck his neck out for him once. There's nothing he can tell Merus that he doesn't already know.

There is the matter that Whis told the Great Priest he would take responsibility for Merus ("I leave Merus in your care"). Who knows what that could mean. Perhaps he will have to eliminate Merus if he violates angelic law, or perhaps Whis actually will get punished in some way.

[emperior]

Merus is a slippery guy. He was able to fight Moro with human strength. If anyone could sneak past Whis, it would be him. Also, I don't see Whis as the type of guy to physically restrain Merus. Whis has done what he can to help his younger brother, but he's already stuck his neck out for him once. There's nothing he can tell Merus that he doesn't already know.

There is the matter that Whis told the Great Priest he would take responsibility for Merus ("I leave Merus in your care"). Who knows what that could mean. Perhaps he will have to eliminate Merus if he violates angelic law, or perhaps Whis actually will get punished in some way.

I don’t expect any big consequence for Whis. We have to consider this arc is clearly not meant to be super important in the long term, as it’s clearly not written by Toriyama. Sure, he may have decided to write some consequence for Whis but I really doubt it.
I think he only wrote Merus stuff for this story and left all the rest to Toyotaro.

Maybe the dilemma will be that Whis will have to be the one executing Merus, or the one who will have to bring Merus to the Daishinkan.

My wish is that Merus indeed ends up being erased, as now that they have brought up this it has to be shown. And that his erasure will bring about new stories based on Goku’s reaction to it. But I expect everyone to not give a single fuck even if Merus is erased, as they did when Zeno erased an entire timeline.

[Mister_Popo]

I don't believe Whis is being eradicated at the endig of this arc. Whis should stay Gokus mentor for the time being.
There is still a new movie coming up, probably with more direct involvement from Toriyama, in which i can't imagine he would no longer use one of the most popular characters of the modern era. If Whis one day 'dies', it's because Toriyama wants it and even then it would probably only be a temporary thing.

I do somehow hope Merus still gets a proper role during the endgame of the arc.
Him being degraded to the role of a passive viewer and commentator untill the very ending of the arc, it just does not feel right.

I guess a flush by GP could happen. It would make sense if he's really naughty, knowing GP is not one of the most lighthearted beings in existence, who allows being messed with if the orders aren't being followed accordingly. Merus being eradicated untill eternity seems more unlikely, because good characters rarely die forever in DB. He can always be brought back by the Super Dragon Balls later on somehow, and thereafter his punishment could be seen by the GP as 'furfilled'. But there is no need for him however to become a constant member of the gang, taking into account how many permanent members there are already. And i doubt his footprint is big enough to replace a character like Whis.

[batistabus]

I don’t expect any big consequence for Whis. We have to consider this arc is clearly not meant to be super important in the long term, as it’s clearly not written by Toriyama. Sure, he may have decided to write some consequence for Whis but I really doubt it.
I think he only wrote Merus stuff for this story and left all the rest to Toyotaro.

Right. I can't see Whis being punished in a way that has any weight to it, unless the weight is just that he has to eliminate/have a hand in the elimination of his brother.

I'd really look forward to how Whis would react to something like that, even if he has no remorse at all. He's a true-blue angel and he understand the law well. Hardly any of the angels from other universes reacted at all when their people were eliminated. I remember Vados reacting the most in the manga, and it was just a hesitant stare. It could go either way.

My wish is that Merus indeed ends up being erased, as now that they have brought up this it has to be shown. And that his erasure will bring about new stories based on Goku’s reaction to it.

I really hope he is. I really do like Merus, but I think a permanent* sacrifice for the sake of humans would be a satisfying end to his arc.

*Being wished back is never out of the question.

But I expect everyone to not give a single fuck even if Merus is erased, as they did when Zeno erased an entire timeline.

I bet they'll care more than that, but I don't expect anyone to be moping about this at any point beyond this arc.

I guess a flush by GP could happen. It would make sense if he's really naughty, knowing GP is not one of the most lighthearted beings in existence, who allows being messed with if the orders aren't being followed accordingly. Merus being eradicated untill eternity seems more unlikely, because good characters rarely die forever in DB. He can always be brought back by the Super Dragon Balls later on somehow, and thereafter his punishment could be seen by the GP as 'furfilled'. But there is no need for him however to become a constant member of the gang, taking into account how many permanent members there are already. And i doubt his footprint is big enough to replace a character like Whis.

I guess the Great Priest could also just pardon him...I don't think he would. "I do not wish to lose an angel", as if it's out of control. Perhaps it literally is out of his control? I had imagined that the GP might have to dole out the punishment as leader of the angels. Maybe Zeno's a hardass and will notice, or maybe it's just part of their DNA and they'll just vanish on the spot if they cross that line.

If this weren't a Toyotaro arc, I could see Merus sticking around as Whis' attendant/student. I don't think it'll happen if this is meant to match up with whatever story Toriyama's currently working on. Also, Merus is really cool and all, and I think he works great for this story, but I don't see him with an interesting enough personality to continue getting page time.

Speaking of Merus, I want Jaco to get a promotion because of his work on this case. He inherits all 104 of Merus' districts and drowns in paperwork.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Why do I have the strangest feeling Gohan just set the death knell for wishing things back to normal? Gohan said in earshot of the planet eating lunatic that."HEY DUDES! REMEMBER THOSE ORANGE WISHING BALLS? WE HAVE EM UP AT DENDE'S PLACE, RIGHT ON THIS VERY PLANET THAT WE'RE FIGHTING ON!! WE CAN TOTALLY DO A LOAD OF DAMAGE TO EARTH AND REVERSE EVERYTHING WITHOUT ANY CONSEQUENCE! I HOPE YOU DON'T MIND ME SAYING THING WHILE IN EARSHOT OF THE BIG BAD DUDES! TOTALLY WON'T BACKFIRE IN ANY SHAPE, WAY, OR FORM!"

I feel Moro would just destroy the dragon balls truthfully, because I don't get what else he could want from them. He's got his youth, his powers, and.....well a good portion of his army is either dead or imprisoned but whatever. He doesn't need them, he views them as expendable anyhow. They guy is already powerful and a force not to be trifled with.

The only one he'd care about is 7-3 and even then, its for his abilities that may aid him in the future.(COUGH! VEGETA! COUGH!)

I mean, I doubt UI is something you can copy. I don't want UI to be watered down to the point a cyborg can steal it. This is the technique of the gods, not something you should be able to copy paste with minimal effort. Also, I'm not certain how you copy a state of being or if Goku would let 7-3 get close enough to try it. If he steals it, let it backfire and kill or cause 7-3 to malfunction or something.

Whatever Vegeta is working on it better be useful. Its probably some magic technique that'll turn the tables until Moro gets on edge and throws 7-3 to throw the match in his favor once he recovers enough to be used.

Whether 7-3 is killed at some point is up for debate. Personally, I think they'll have to kill him, he's simply too much of a nuisance to let run around, especially with his power switching abilities. They might just have Moro kill 7-3 once he exhausts his use, whatever happens to Shimorekka is honestly not something people care for.

Most likely, they'll just have Shimorekka get arrested or killed, maybe 'redeem' himself if they felt like writing that. Redemption is shallow in this series, so it wouldn't surprise me if Shimorekka defected upon seeing how insane things go on Earth while the fight is going on if he isn't locked away or killed. Hell, having 7-3 die right in front of him might make him defect, especially if Moro's the one to kill him.

It would be a reminder that Moro views everyone as expendable. He can and will kill at his leisure or amusement. A monster who only cares for himself.

Though I'm not sure what they'll do if Moro destroys the dragon balls given that Moro's caused a truckload of damage. How the hell do you go about repairing that?

Moro's a psycho, I imagine that at some point he'll either destroy them or wish for....something? I mean, I don't get what else he'd wish for as he's got all his powers but who's gonna decline free wishes? Maybe he'll pull a Zamasu and wish for Immortality or something. Maybe grant himself some other random abilities that will give him more cards up his sleeve.

Moro would probably go like,"More dragon balls? Already have my youth and such, but I suppose a few more wishes won't hurt.."

If he doesn't, he'll destroy them because he doesn't want his work being undone by the Z gang. Because why else would Gohan mention the orange wishing balls right in front of the evil goat?

[emperior]

Moro’s not going to destroy the Earth DBs, in my opinion. Why would he even care about destroying them? I don’t even think he knows they exist, it’s not like he should have heard Gohan.

Also it wouldn’t be a huge deal. They have the Namekian kid, Esca, alive and thus the Namekian DBs are still intact and will reactivate in a bit because Moori transferred the ownership of those balls to Esca.

Therefore once everything’s over they will either go back to Namek to wish back everyone Moro killed (Porunga was upgraded in Buu arc to be able to wish more people back to life at once) or they will ask Shenron.
But Shenron shouldn’t be able to grant the same wish twice, so he shouldn’t be able to wish everyone back to life. So they will most likely use Shenron in other ways.

[TKA]

Creators should never look at what fans are saying or what fans want.

Tell the story you want to tell. That's what created a fandom in the first place. Well, unless you are a cynical fuck and only wrote a story with the goal of it being popular. In that case, you can pander and rake in all the money, like those Marvel movies.

Dragonball is at its best when it is subversive and when it does what fans don't want.