What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun May 03, 2020 6:04 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 5:09 pm
He was made the team captain, came up with strategies and made a great showing.

Hardly what i would a small bone.
Being "captain" and his "strategies" didn't amount to anything at all. His showings were good, but nothing to write home about.

What he did was pretty small, especially for someone who back in the day took out Cell and was the single strongest character at the end of the manga.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Akyon » Sun May 03, 2020 7:22 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 5:09 pm
He got a small bone in the TOP arc
He was made the team captain, came up with strategies and made a great showing. Hardly what i would a small bone.
Strategies half the team straight up ignored(incidentally the half that did best because teamwork really didn't matter as per the norm) and he didn't even pick the team.

Gohan's Captain role was lip service at best, let's not pretend this was something grander than an arbitrary title.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ABED » Sun May 03, 2020 8:49 pm

His showings were good, but nothing to write home about.
Disagree on that point.
What he did was pretty small, especially for someone who back in the day took out Cell and was the single strongest character at the end of the manga.
What he did against Cell was far less impressive because he had his hand held EVERY SINGLE STEP OF THE WAY. Here, Gohan is independent and comes up with strategies and showcases his talent on his own. In that prelim tournament battle he figures out an impressive strategy on the fly. He combined his intelligence with his natural strength without turning him into Goku 2.0.

I can't speak to the Moro arc. I'm only counting the anime, not the manga.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by pepd » Mon May 04, 2020 2:38 am

-ssjg RITUAL
-Riburianne’s attacks’s names
-Beerus ASKING Freeza to destroy planet Vegeta (If the translation is accurate. I think giving him permission would have been great)
-The Cabba and Kaulifla talk about Kale being the legendary demonic saiyajin whose power increase until selfdestruction
-Tenshinhan doing nothing with kikoho to Frost when this last is weaker than a ssj Goku
-GREEN HAIR of both Kale and Broly IF ever colored green in the b&w dbs manga (cover or something)

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Sun May 10, 2020 3:31 am

Yuli Ban wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:08 pm
Kunzait_83 wrote:People have their qualms with the Daimao arc, but I certainly wouldn't call it "objectively bad" by any stretch. For me, I've always argued that the 22nd Budokai all the way through the Namek arc is the single best uninterrupted stretch of the entire franchise.
Well no wonder. This part of the series follows the cycle of the Hero's Journey almost perfectly. It's xianxia in full while maintaining narrative cohesion (whereas plenty of wuxia and xianxia stories have a bad habit of continuing long after they start getting repetit— ohh.....)

Also, this is the part of the series that is essentially the cartoonier version of Yu Yu Hakusho. It's the point where Dragon Ball came into its own and started leaving its purely parodic gag roots behind.

In other words, Dragon Ball could have started with the 22nd tenkaichi budokai and ended with Son Goku's death on Namek and it would have been just as much of a fulfilling story. Everything else is essentially extra to Son's story arc, though that doesn't mean everything else is necessarily bad or useless— several story arcs were played out back in the original Dragon Ball quest/Pilaf arc and Gohan's story arc (my favorite in the series) wouldn't get started until most of Goku's story arc had already been done.

This represents what I think might be one of the biggest problems in Dragon Ball— Son Goku's story arc is essentially over. It's been over for decades. He was part of more stories, but Dragon Ball is no longer his story. Passing the torch to Gohan after Cell would have been the strongest move for the series. But Toriyama's decision against it and his decision to keep Goku as the lead brought us to where we are now. And the entire franchise is suffering because of it. We've had two attempted canon continuations that fell into the exact same problems, even if the second felt more faithful to the original work at times.

Perhaps in parallel of how, despite common belief, Journey to the West isn't about Sun Wukong.


ADD moment: There are several tests you can play to check the tensile strength of any story. For this particular rant, ask yourself this question: if you can take away a character, does their absence vitally affect the story and development of other characters? If you could reasonably rewrite a plot with this character appearing at all and giving other characters a better reason to appear, why not do so? For most of Dragon Ball after Cell, Goku has been largely peripheral despite dominating the screen. It was at its most atrocious in the Future Trunks arc, where you literally could have taken Goku out of the arc entirely (save as Goku Black) and the entire thing wouldn't have changed. Goku wasn't at all needed for any part of it past the first fight with Zamasu. Everything he did that actually mattered could have been done by someone else, and it would have made for a much stronger, much tighter arc for Future Trunks.



Of course, there was a third canon continuation of Dragon Ball, one which usually draws a lot of praise. That was Dragon Ball Online. In this case, almost everyone from DB is long since dead, little more than legends of an earlier time. There's no chance for Goku to hijack the story; it's entirely up to a new generation. Here is where new material for Dragon Ball can work. But alas, we're too far gone.

Ironically, Dragon Ball could have learned something from Naruto in this case— though it's a flawed show, the best thing about Boruto is that it's following a new generation's journey without wimping out and falling back on the more well-known and established characters from the first series. Dragon Ball could have pioneered that (though to be fair, I understand Toriyama's reluctance to keep it going long after he had tired of it; Tintin's creator expressed the same angst).

So I suppose that's the most annoying thing to come out of nü Dragon Ball— despite everything that has been written about Dragon Ball G(oku) T(ime) and having two decades to learn from its failure, Toei and Toriyama essentially made the exact same mistakes in HD.



I know I keep saying "But I'm arguing about literary theories in a cartoon series for 3-7 year-old Japanese boys," but if we're talking about actual functional problems with the franchise as a whole and why modern Dragon Ball can't seem to come anywhere close to the old stuff sans fanservicey homages, narrative issues always come first. At this point, we're essentially talking about "Zombie Ball Z" and are a part of a "Dead Goku Society" analyzing at which point Dragon Ball "died". I don't want to say it died when Goku returned from his battle with Freeza— arguably the most well-renowned part of the series (the Gohan vs. Cell fight) was still ahead of it. I think the problem is that there's not much of a point to it anymore.

Since Goku's arc is over but we still follow him around with no new arcs being created for him (the GoD arc doesn't seem to be going anywhere and we could assume as much thanks to Super taking place before the EoZ), Dragon Ball is essentially no different from American comic serials with the fatal flaw that other characters don't have their own series so the entire thing is being done through focus on Goku.

In which case, Dragon Ball Heroes might as well be the only continuation. It may be utterly stupid and without any arc whatsoever, but at least it's upfront about it.
I know this is a dusty old post but I agree with the sentiment so much. After DBZ, or even GT for some folks, Goku really hasn't much more to grow as a character. He's already been through all his biggest changes/developments/maturation, etc, in DB and DBZ. At the end of Z, he reached a good balance of reaching (At the time) peak power and peaking as a developed character. He went from a scrappy, immature, kind of naive, but still well-meaning kid to becoming the hero with a heart of gold we all love.

In DBZ alone he's traveled across the galaxy, went between other dimensions, come back from death multiple times, fought (At the time) the most powerful foes in the universe, raised a family, made allies with who used to be his biggest opponents, perfected his skills, reached what used to be his very own limits of power, saved the universe from the brink of ruin multiple times, and became the master of his art.

Like, where does one go with Goku after that? In my opinion the most interesting thing they could do with him now is find a way to kill him off forever. Like "FOREVER" forever. No magic loop holes, no sort of science mumbo-jumbo reviving technology, no last-second fake out, nothing. Kill Goku (In a respectful manner I add) and keep him out of the picture. But obviously that would never work. Because if there was a main-line DB series without Goku, most casual fans would probably be turned off and tune out. But that's just assumption, I wouldnt know unless they actually ever did it.

Feel free to correct me and make me feel like a total dummy. Maybe i'm just talking out my ass :lol: :lol:
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  • Favorite Arcs = Red Ribbon Army, Saiyan Arc, Frieza Arc, 23rd Budoukai, Piccolo Daimao
  • Favorite Characters Besides Goku/Vegeta = General Blue, Pilaf Gang, Crane Hermit, Bulma, Yamcha, Krillin, Frieza, Ginyu Force, Tournament Announcer, Lunch, Broly, and Piccolo

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun May 10, 2020 5:52 am

ArmenianPepsi wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:31 am
After DBZ, or even GT for some folks, Goku really hasn't much more to grow as a character. Like, where does one go with Goku after that?

In my opinion the most interesting thing they could do with him now is find a way to kill him off forever. Because if there was a main-line DB series without Goku, most casual fans would probably be turned off and tune out.
I'd say that Goku stopped developing after the Cell arc, as that was the last time we saw him go through a significant change. In that arc not only did he become a teacher after being a student for so long, he even gave up a fight for the first time and passed down the torch to his son. That's not to say he wasn't good in the Buu arc, but that arc focused primarily on finishing Vegeta's arc, with Goku being there more or less because he was the main character, rather than needing further development. GT didn't do anything with him, and modern DB is just going in circles with him and everyone else.

People said Boruto would never work, yet now its reaching the 200 episode mark with no end in sight. Under the right leadership, any idea can be successful.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Jord » Sun May 10, 2020 6:13 am

The lamest thing out of modern DB is Dragon Ball Super. If you needed any more clues that Dragon Ball is creatively bankrupt, look no further.

It's like a bad version of a greatest hits tour of a band.

-First we have 1/4 of the series (27 episodes) basically retelling 2 90 minute movies, only with worse animation and due to it's length, giant pacing issues.

-While Battle of Gods was an okay movie, the whole Freeza returns plot of the second movie really takes a nose dive. guess what? Just by training a few months suddenly Freeza surpasses every previous villain. If that wasn't bad enough, the ending of the movie has to be the worst ending out of anything Dragon Ball-related. Freeza wins? Whoops, nope. We can now turn back time and try beating him again. Yeah, that's a good way to kill the tension. Also, Goku and Vegeta now have an awesome new power up that turns their hair blue. Really interesting design choice there.

-So next there is a tournament, of which Toriyma said in interviews that he used tournaments as a way to progress the story, usually leading to something interesting. Certainly true, most of the tournaments led to bigger, interesting story lines.This tournament has a interesting grand prize: he winner allowed to swap Earths. Spoilers: of course, this never leads to any new and interesting adventures or actually swapping Earths.

-Then it's time for another nostalgia blast with Future Trunks, who still has a shitty time line, now with a Goku lookalike villain. While this had interesting beats, it really went south heading to the finally with a return of Vegetto who, even with the power of nostalgia can't beat the suddenly new fusion rules DBS writers' came up with. Just like with most of DBS this saga has a shitty ending as well with the villain "merging" with reality" which seems to be quite a pickle. How will our heroes get out of this one? Well Goku just happens to have a remote with a button on it which he uses to call up a supreme god who then simply erases the villain. Wow, that sure is an exciting ending. Really climactic finish there guys.

-Hope you like Tournaments with lots of jobbers because the last part of Super is a tournament that takes a YEAR to finish. To be fair, the initial premise of the tournament seemed interesting. It was to be a free for all with lots of fighters with only the winning team surviving and everyone else being erased.. As usual with Super though, the actual delivery was a let-down. Yes it's a free for all but it sure doesn't seem that way because every time there was a fight, they were mostly one on one or even two or two fights with the rest of the arena covered with a dark fog. The pacing also suffered with it being stretched out for a year. And that ending? Guess what? Everyone STILL survived due to the Dragon Balls. Also Goku gets a new power up with a interesting and creative design; now his hair turns WHITE.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun May 10, 2020 8:19 am

Jord wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 6:13 am
Freeza wins? Whoops, nope. We can now turn back time and try beating him again. Yeah, that's a good way to kill the tension.
A simple change would've not only improved the movie, but the following arcs. Have Freeza blow up the planet but with a slight change, Goku saves Vegeta and gets him to Whis. The heroes survive, but the only way to get the earth back is to win a tournament against U6 to use the Super dragon balls to wish it back. With both universes trying to bring their earth back, there'll be more tension during the matches, and it'll connect RF better to the rest of Super. With Freeza still out there, they don't have to go through the trouble of giving Whis yet another overpowered ability to bring him back, because he'll still be alive from RF.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Planetnamek » Sun May 10, 2020 10:56 am

I would have to say Heroes, its kind of depressing seeing the DBZ characters appropriated just to sell a card game.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2020 11:07 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 8:19 am
Jord wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 6:13 am
Freeza wins? Whoops, nope. We can now turn back time and try beating him again. Yeah, that's a good way to kill the tension.
A simple change would've not only improved the movie, but the following arcs. Have Freeza blow up the planet but with a slight change, Goku saves Vegeta and gets him to Whis. The heroes survive, but the only way to get the earth back is to win a tournament against U6 to use the Super dragon balls to wish it back. With both universes trying to bring their earth back, there'll be more tension during the matches, and it'll connect RF better to the rest of Super. With Freeza still out there, they don't have to go through the trouble of giving Whis yet another overpowered ability to bring him back, because he'll still be alive from RF.
So Freeza blows up the planet and that's how the arc ends?
-Hope you like Tournaments with lots of jobbers because the last part of Super is a tournament that takes a YEAR to finish
I love it when people appropriate the term Jobbers and use it as a pejorative as if they don't bring value.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun May 10, 2020 11:25 am

ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 11:07 am
So Freeza blows up the planet and that's how the arc ends?
It ends like the 22nd Tenkaichi where Goku found Krillin dead and that lead into the next arc (king Piccolo). With RF, it'd end with Beerus telling everyone about a tournament his brother kept challenging him to in order to win the Super dragon balls, which they can use to bring earth back.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2020 11:47 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 11:25 am
ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 11:07 am
So Freeza blows up the planet and that's how the arc ends?
It ends like the 22nd Tenkaichi where Goku found Krillin dead and that lead into the next arc (king Piccolo). With RF, it'd end with Beerus telling everyone about a tournament his brother kept challenging him to in order to win the Super dragon balls, which they can use to bring earth back.
Except in that case, there was an ending to the story. Goku lost the match but gained a friend and Tenshinhan's internal conflict was resolved. The cliffhanger ending was in the denouement, not the climax. What happens to Freeza in your hypothetical scenario?
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun May 10, 2020 11:53 am

ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 11:47 am
What happens to Freeza in your hypothetical scenario?
He survives, but is blown far away somewhere that we find out about when the TOP is about to take place and they need their 10th member.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2020 1:07 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 11:53 am
ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 11:47 am
What happens to Freeza in your hypothetical scenario?
He survives, but is blown far away somewhere that we find out about when the TOP is about to take place and they need their 10th member.
That's just incredibly unsatisfying. Freeza blows up Earth, so the story just ends. No revenge or retaliation.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun May 10, 2020 1:32 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 1:07 pm
That's just incredibly unsatisfying.
Not nearly as unsatisfying as what we ended up getting. If you're not going to go through with Freeza winning, then just have Vegeta kill him then and there, don't pull something you know for a fact you'll just walk back in a few minutes.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2020 2:29 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 1:32 pm
ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 1:07 pm
That's just incredibly unsatisfying.
Not nearly as unsatisfying as what we ended up getting. If you're not going to go through with Freeza winning, then just have Vegeta kill him then and there, don't pull something you know for a fact you'll just walk back in a few minutes.
It's unsatisfying because it just ends. They don't go after Freeza, he's apparently not part of the tournament either. I'm fine with the reset power because it has limits and while execution was lackluster, the idea that he can only use it again after a certain amount of time means they have to use it strategically and wonder whether this or that time is the moment they actually want a do-over. Just having Freeza destroy Earth and then not get back to him until way down the road feels unsatisfying.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Toxin45 » Mon May 11, 2020 10:30 am

The fact there are 27 planets in the main universe which is still bull to me.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by kemuri07 » Mon May 11, 2020 12:47 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 8:19 am
Jord wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 6:13 am
Freeza wins? Whoops, nope. We can now turn back time and try beating him again. Yeah, that's a good way to kill the tension.
A simple change would've not only improved the movie, but the following arcs. Have Freeza blow up the planet but with a slight change, Goku saves Vegeta and gets him to Whis. The heroes survive, but the only way to get the earth back is to win a tournament against U6 to use the Super dragon balls to wish it back. With both universes trying to bring their earth back, there'll be more tension during the matches, and it'll connect RF better to the rest of Super. With Freeza still out there, they don't have to go through the trouble of giving Whis yet another overpowered ability to bring him back, because he'll still be alive from RF.
So basically Dragon Ball is just going to be one long Tournament arc....forever.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Matches Malone » Mon May 11, 2020 12:58 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 12:47 pm
So basically Dragon Ball is just going to be one long Tournament arc....forever.
If I got to change everything from the ground up, then the tournaments would be out. However, If I'm only allowed small changes, then I'd like to see things connect better to one another, such as the example I mentioned above.

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Re: What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

Post by Slangh » Wed May 13, 2020 1:24 pm

Long, in depth analysis of Dragon Ball on Youtube. To me this seems incredibly pointless, as it was never meant to conform to anyone's logic, rules or any school of writing. But these Youtubers say really smart things, referring to the science of literature, so they become popular and known as Dragon Ball scholars or something. Most of them are just annoying.

Still this ultimately shows how engaging the original Dragon Ball still is. With all its imperfections, people's imagination is appealed to, who ask questions and want to make sense of it all. Or they come with their own stories and parodies. Such engagement, no matter how lame it can be, shows Dragon Ball is art.

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