Is Super Sayain Rage, SSBKK non canon to the DBS Manga

[Young-Jah]

Is it's true that Super Sayain Rage, SSB Kaio Ken are non canon to the DBS Manga, and are only canon to the anime only, since the anime and manga are following in a different format?

[Tai Lung]

that time when manga was the main thing and was the basis for everything no longer exists ...

The first thing the author did was to continue the story through movies and then move on with a series.
You can take manga as the way to reach manga readers, but for its success it must be different.

[LoganForkHands73]

Basically, yeah. There are alternatives in the manga though that follow similar premises, though: Trunks has a Mastered Super Saiyan 2 from the start and doesn't evolve beyond that. For a while the manga's closest equivalent to SSBKK was "completed Super Saiyan Blue", but way later in the Tournament of Power Goku claims to have boosted Super Saiyan Blue with the principles of Kaio-ken. I guess we'll have to wait for the full colour releases to see if that made any visual difference.

[Miracles]

What the anime or manga puts out isn't "canon." Canon by definition means "authority."
The anime and manga merely adapt from Toriyama's plotted format of DBS.

What Toriyama writes is actually Dragonball Super. Since it's his story; having none of the manga/anime transformations in his movies: SSR, SSBKK and Full power Super Saiyan Blue [manga] are not "canon."

[Sadala Elite]

What the anime or manga puts out isn't "canon." Canon by definition means "authority."
The anime and manga merely adapt from Toriyama's plotted format of DBS.

What Toriyama writes is actually Dragonball Super. Since it's his story; having none of the manga/anime transformations in his movies: SSR, SSBKK and Full power Super Saiyan Blue [manga] are not "canon."

Toriyama barely writes anything for Super besides the Broly movie.

A paper napkin with a small vague "outline" of what's supposed to happen isn't writing.

[Kataphrut]

They're not in it, so no. That said, something like SSBE is. Toyotaro is clearly a man of good taste...

[Miracles]

What the anime or manga puts out isn't "canon." Canon by definition means "authority."
The anime and manga merely adapt from Toriyama's plotted format of DBS.

What Toriyama writes is actually Dragonball Super. Since it's his story; having none of the manga/anime transformations in his movies: SSR, SSBKK and Full power Super Saiyan Blue [manga] are not "canon."

Toriyama barely writes anything for Super besides the Broly movie.

A paper napkin with a small vague "outline" of what's supposed to happen isn't writing.

Incorrect. Toriyama wrote BoG, RoF and Broly. Nothing you posted changes the fact; what he pens, is the actual canon.

[Dbzfan94]

They're not in it, so no. That said, something like SSBE is. Toyotaro is clearly a man of good taste...

Ironic considering Bluer is a horrible form.

[Tai Lung]

They're not in it, so no. That said, something like SSBE is. Toyotaro is clearly a man of good taste...

SSBE exists ... only it is not "named"
vegeta has PU with which he confronts jiren and recovers his aura

[Koitsukai]

To avoid the canonicity debate, I'll say SSR is the only anime form that isn't part of the manga continuity in any way. He gets no boosts at all, only in the anime that happens, but he chimes in with his healing ability due to being a kaioshin apprentice.

However, the manga has Vegeta using a boosted SSB form similar to SSBE, with a different aura too, although in the manga he gets one boost and not several like in the animé. And Goku as MSSB boosts his power in a similar way as kaioken does. Both forms are short-lived and not "permanent" boosts like in the anime. Goku doesn't use kaioken as great or as casually as in the animé, and it is considered a bad move and sort of a waste of health. In the anime it's a trump card and like a permanent "form".

[Young-Jah]

To avoid the canonicity debate, I'll say SSR is the only anime form that isn't part of the manga continuity in any way. He gets no boosts at all, only in the anime that happens, but he chimes in with his healing ability due to being a kaioshin apprentice.

However, the manga has Vegeta using a boosted SSB form similar to SSBE, with a different aura too, although in the manga he gets one boost and not several like in the animé. And Goku as MSSB boosts his power in a similar way as kaioken does. Both forms are short-lived and not "permanent" boosts like in the anime. Goku doesn't use kaioken as great or as casually as in the animé, and it is considered a bad move and sort of a waste of health. In the anime it's a trump card and like a permanent "form".

I'll take credit for your answer my friend.

I think your correct.

There's nothing to avoid.

[Hugo Boss]

Both forms are short-lived and not "permanent" boosts like in the anime.

Vegeta uses his powered-up blue form against Moro in the manga.

[Sadala Elite]

What the anime or manga puts out isn't "canon." Canon by definition means "authority."
The anime and manga merely adapt from Toriyama's plotted format of DBS.

What Toriyama writes is actually Dragonball Super. Since it's his story; having none of the manga/anime transformations in his movies: SSR, SSBKK and Full power Super Saiyan Blue [manga] are not "canon."

Toriyama barely writes anything for Super besides the Broly movie.

A paper napkin with a small vague "outline" of what's supposed to happen isn't writing.

Incorrect. Toriyama wrote BoG, RoF and Broly. Nothing you posted changes the fact; what he pens, is the actual canon.

The BoG and RoF movies were made for Z, before Super even existed.

"Nothing you posted changes the fact; what he pens, is the actual canon"

Then by that logic almost nothing in Super (anime or manga) is canon, especially the Black arc.

[Miracles]

Toriyama barely writes anything for Super besides the Broly movie.

A paper napkin with a small vague "outline" of what's supposed to happen isn't writing.

Incorrect. Toriyama wrote BoG, RoF and Broly. Nothing you posted changes the fact; what he pens, is the actual canon.

The BoG and RoF movies were made for Z, before Super even existed.

"Nothing you posted changes the fact; what he pens, is the actual canon"

Then by that logic almost nothing in Super (anime or manga) is canon, especially the Black arc.

That's correct. The TV and manga aren't canon since they are only adapted from Toriyama's "original story draft." They are however "continuity" IE; connected. BoG and RoF are what Super stems from. The source material.

[Kataphrut]

These arguments about what parts of Super are "canon" are always so tiresome because it always comes down to which version outside the movies you prefer, and lots of back and forth arguing over which is more worthy. Whereas I'm pretty sure the whole point is that it doesn't matter which version is correct as long as you experience (read: spend money on) at least one of them.

You can't say it's just the movies because they have to connect from something. Clearly that Tournament of Power movie Goku mentioned in the Broly movie had to happen at some point. It's not like the Clone Wars where we had to imagine what they were talking about for years before getting it confirmed in a sequel years later. We'd just seen two different versions of it, one significantly less boring than the other.

[Tai Lung]

Incorrect. Toriyama wrote BoG, RoF and Broly. Nothing you posted changes the fact; what he pens, is the actual canon.

The BoG and RoF movies were made for Z, before Super even existed.

"Nothing you posted changes the fact; what he pens, is the actual canon"

Then by that logic almost nothing in Super (anime or manga) is canon, especially the Black arc.

That's correct. The TV and manga aren't canon since they are only adapted from Toriyama's "original story draft." They are however "continuity" IE; connected. BoG and RoF are what Super stems from. The source material.

the biggest lie I've ever seen ... because even those movies aren't even completely written by him and anyway the movies are incomplete and depend on other means

at the end of all dragon ball is currently a composite of various things

[Miracles]

The BoG and RoF movies were made for Z, before Super even existed.

"Nothing you posted changes the fact; what he pens, is the actual canon"

Then by that logic almost nothing in Super (anime or manga) is canon, especially the Black arc.

That's correct. The TV and manga aren't canon since they are only adapted from Toriyama's "original story draft." They are however "continuity" IE; connected. BoG and RoF are what Super stems from. The source material.

the biggest lie I've ever seen ... because even those movies aren't even completely written by him and anyway the movies are incomplete and depend on other means

at the end of all dragon ball is currently a composite of various things

No. Whatever Toriyama writes is Dragonball. This is why he rewrote the entire BoG script that TOEI sent him. Since he said it didn't resemble Dragonball's world. Canon by definition is whatever the authority writes, that's Toriyama.

[Tai Lung]

That's correct. The TV and manga aren't canon since they are only adapted from Toriyama's "original story draft." They are however "continuity" IE; connected. BoG and RoF are what Super stems from. The source material.

the biggest lie I've ever seen ... because even those movies aren't even completely written by him and anyway the movies are incomplete and depend on other means

at the end of all dragon ball is currently a composite of various things

No. Whatever Toriyama writes is Dragonball. This is why he rewrote the entire BoG script that TOEI sent him. Since he said it didn't resemble Dragonball's world. Canon by definition is whatever the authority writes, that's Toriyama.

Analyze what you are saying ... under that logic, not even the original DB manga would be canon because the editors changed several things that the author had originally planned.

toriyama intervenes a lot for sure but it's quite illogical that he created things like ikari transformations and even broly's idea was part of toei's staff

In any case, this discussion does not deserve to be repeated.

[Miracles]

the biggest lie I've ever seen ... because even those movies aren't even completely written by him and anyway the movies are incomplete and depend on other means

at the end of all dragon ball is currently a composite of various things

No. Whatever Toriyama writes is Dragonball. This is why he rewrote the entire BoG script that TOEI sent him. Since he said it didn't resemble Dragonball's world. Canon by definition is whatever the authority writes, that's Toriyama.

Analyze what you are saying ... under that logic, not even the original DB manga would be canon because the editors changed several things that the author had originally planned.

toriyama intervenes a lot for sure but it's quite illogical that he created things like ikari transformations and even broly's idea was part of toei's staff

In any case, this discussion does not deserve to be repeated.

The editors didn't write the story nor draw what was agreed upon to be changed with Toriyama. Toriyama himself does the manual revisions. Therefore it's STILL his work, therefore canon.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

Incorrect. Toriyama wrote BoG, RoF and Broly. Nothing you posted changes the fact; what he pens, is the actual canon.

Technically he didn't. He came on to BoG after Toei decided to make it and changed numerous aspects of the movie. However, he did not write it at all nor conceive of it, and he didn't rewrite the entire script. For RoF, he came up with the ideas but someone else wrote the actual film script. I believe the same happened for Broly. Toriyama, at most, may think up some character designs now, and he writes general plot outlines. But he isn't writing detailed scripts nor authoring the manga.

As for the above conversation, there is no definitive version of Super. Whereas it used to be that Toriyama drew the manga and the anime was a supplement to it, now the manga is a supplement to the anime (or was until it ended). Both Toei and Toyotaro go from plot point to plot point with their own ideas. This is why the end of the Future Trunks arc is somewhat different in the manga as opposed to the anime (not the very end, but the last few chapters).

In short, there is no "canon." There never has been as Toei and Toriyama have always done things differently. For instance, Toriyama never mentions anything he didn't create such as Coola. He could have easily been mentioned in RoF, but there was no hint of his existence whatsoever. Same for SSB + Kaio-ken in Broly--it was a Toei creation so he didn't reference it. But in the anime, Goku uses that form constantly. The only thing that relates to canon and its existence is the arguments people make about it. That's it.