Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

[Matches Malone]

I want a good passing of the torch and send off for Goku as some sort of definitive end.

I feel like BOG is that story. For Goku, he finally learned what Roshi was trying to teach him and Krilin all those years ago, "there's always someone stronger out there". Despite gaining SsjG, Not only was he defeated by Beerus, he was told afterwards that there are countless beings out there even stronger. This should've been the fight that resulted in Goku deciding to train Uub and pass things down to the next gen of fighters. For Vegeta, he saw first hand the results of his reform during the Buu arc when he was able to hold his own against Beerus as a mere Ssj2, all to protect the person closest to him. As a bonus, he was even able to surpass Goku, his life long dream. To me, BOG is the perfect story to not only lead into EOZ (something I felt the original manga was lacking), but to also kick start a show focused on the next generation of fighters, trained by Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, and everyone else who'd seen and learned so much in the dragon world that they could pass down to others.

[ABED]

I want a good passing of the torch and send off for Goku as some sort of definitive end.

I feel like BOG is that story. For Goku, he finally learned what Roshi was trying to teach him and Krilin all those years ago, "there's always someone stronger out there". Despite gaining SsjG, Not only was he defeated by Beerus, he was told afterwards that there are countless beings out there even stronger. This should've been the fight that resulted in Goku deciding to train Uub and pass things down to the next gen of fighters. For Vegeta, he saw first hand the results of his reform during the Buu arc when he was able to hold his own against Beerus as a mere Ssj2, all to protect the person closest to him. As a bonus, he was even able to surpass Goku, his life long dream. To me, BOG is the perfect story to not only lead into EOZ (something I felt the original manga was lacking), but to also kick start a show focused on the next generation of fighters, trained by Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, and everyone else who'd seen and learned so much in the dragon world that they could pass down to others.

Wait, what? It's that fight that gets Goku to think about the next generation? It makes far more sense that Goku would see that as motivation to get stronger and explore the infinite possibilities because there are more hills to climb; not as a reason to settle down and pass on what he knows.

[Mad Swami]

I can't wrap my around the idea that a story isn't "Dragon Ball" because it doesn't have Goku and gang in it. Yes, Goku, Bulma, Krillin, Vegeta and the rest are what the fans are most invested into, but the exploration of what it means to be a martial artist and how that can affect the lives of those around is the core concept of what Dragon Ball is. And Goku was moulded, as far as character and design goes, to fit that criteria the best it could be. There is NOTHING indicating that can't be replicated with another cast of characters in the same setting or in a new one.

Because the world is not the story. DB is not the world, it's the characters. The story isn't about the world and the magical orbs.

I never said said the world is story. Hell, I never mentioned the word "world" in my comment. I'm specifically talking about the journey of a marital artist, which is the narrative foundation for every story told in Dragon Ball. It's the basic storytelling trope that is applied to Goku, and could be easily done for another character. Hell, it could end up being an even more interesting and compelling journey than Goku's if you have a quality staff behind the story.

If I may interject with my own thoughts. I think Goku is truly Dragon Ball. Sure the world is fun and the over all idea of martial artist bettering themselves is applicable to other characters. It's what Goku as a character represents to the story and world of Dragon Ball. He is the light in everyone's dark world to help guide them out. Characters like Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks, and of course Vegeta are all people who carried flawed ideals and mentalities but Goku helped save them. In a way, Dragon Ball is more than just a martial artist bettering himself, it's about striving to be the best you everyday by over coming internal issues. Now of course Goku isn't a perfect Jesus like figure, but there is something he has which makes Dragon Ball, Dragon ball. When his run is up, I think the story ends with him. IMO

[Mad Swami]

I want a good passing of the torch and send off for Goku as some sort of definitive end.

I feel like BOG is that story. For Goku, he finally learned what Roshi was trying to teach him and Krilin all those years ago, "there's always someone stronger out there". Despite gaining SsjG, Not only was he defeated by Beerus, he was told afterwards that there are countless beings out there even stronger. This should've been the fight that resulted in Goku deciding to train Uub and pass things down to the next gen of fighters. For Vegeta, he saw first hand the results of his reform during the Buu arc when he was able to hold his own against Beerus as a mere Ssj2, all to protect the person closest to him. As a bonus, he was even able to surpass Goku, his life long dream. To me, BOG is the perfect story to not only lead into EOZ (something I felt the original manga was lacking), but to also kick start a show focused on the next generation of fighters, trained by Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, and everyone else who'd seen and learned so much in the dragon world that they could pass down to others.

I kind of agree. I liked Battle of Gods because in my eyes it re contextualized Uub vs Goku. I used to think Goku vs Uub was a really anti climatic end, I mean it was base Goku vs a little kid. I never hated that ending, in fact I love it and I am fine with it being a tamed fight. However Battle of Gods made it seem that Uub was pushing an ssg level fighter, even if it could just be like 20% of his power. Plus it would explain Goku's sadness over the next 10 years, Beerus was too strong, and Goku can't fight him however he himself couldn't be challenged. Goku would have loved to see all those crazy universes, but because of him not being strong enough he couldn't. Uub would be his ticket to see what the other universes had.

However I really do love GT's ideas and think I would still prefer that done better but was fully on board with BoG being the last thing to grace Dragonball ever.

[Mad Swami]

I want a good passing of the torch and send off for Goku as some sort of definitive end.

I feel like BOG is that story. For Goku, he finally learned what Roshi was trying to teach him and Krilin all those years ago, "there's always someone stronger out there". Despite gaining SsjG, Not only was he defeated by Beerus, he was told afterwards that there are countless beings out there even stronger. This should've been the fight that resulted in Goku deciding to train Uub and pass things down to the next gen of fighters. For Vegeta, he saw first hand the results of his reform during the Buu arc when he was able to hold his own against Beerus as a mere Ssj2, all to protect the person closest to him. As a bonus, he was even able to surpass Goku, his life long dream. To me, BOG is the perfect story to not only lead into EOZ (something I felt the original manga was lacking), but to also kick start a show focused on the next generation of fighters, trained by Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, and everyone else who'd seen and learned so much in the dragon world that they could pass down to others.

Wait, what? It's that fight that gets Goku to think about the next generation? It makes far more sense that Goku would see that as motivation to get stronger and explore the infinite possibilities because there are more hills to climb; not as a reason to settle down and pass on what he knows.

Yeah I get that, however I think that ties in well. Goku isn't supposed to be seen for awhile after BoG. He is probably training his absolute hardest so that one day he can see those other warriors and rematch Beerus. However, he doesn't have any good training partners and would probably not be getting much stronger. That's where his sadness can come in and then Uub could help cure it. Goku could probably remember how much potential Kid Buu had and want to push it to the point where Uub is a worth successor and fight buddy. Of course that's not what happened but ya know

[Forte224]

But that is no way a justification to veto the idea of moving on to a new set characters to tell a new set of stories in the same world. This is like saying you can't have another Star Trek story without the original cast that the viewers and fans came to love.

Not comparable. Star Trek (real Star Trek, aka nothing after like 2005 at the latest) is about the world and the situations the characters run into as well as how they deal with them. There is a ton of focus on these situations and therefore there are a lot of important details in the Star Trek universe that add up to some really great stories. Each episode is a completely separate story and the characters, although usually really good, don't make extremely noticeable development from episode to episode. Since the details in Star Trek are so important you can easily plug in a new cast in this universe that feels legitimately large and cohesive.

On the other hand, the details in Dragon Ball's world are not important, nor are they clearly defined. Plugging in a new cast would feel pointless, because it would just feel like a new anime where they kept the Dragon Ball logo for marketing purposes. Like, I really don't see the point of wanting a new cast. They might as well just make a brand new anime.

[MyVisionity]

Why do you feel the desire to change DB into something it's not? Why do you want it to become Gundam or Power Rangers?

That's called "transformation". You can take a series and change it to become something that it has never been before. Were Gundam and Power Rangers always what they are now? They started out as stories with the same world and same characters before evolving into stories with different worlds and characters.

Then what's the point of calling it DB? At that point, it's just marketing. DB isn't a setting, it's a story. The world exists for Goku and his merry band, not the other way around. Why not create a new fictional universe with rules you want to explore ideas you find interesting that happens to be influenced by DB?

It's more than just marketing because "Dragon Ball" is more than just a title. It represents all the significant elements that make up the series and world. You say DB is not a setting, but a story. I say it's the setting, story, characters, style, themes and on and on. All of those things are DB. You could do a new DB series set in an all-new universe with all-new characters and it would still be DB if you retained the DB style or the DB themes etc.

Yes, you could just create an entirely new and separate series that is influenced by Dragon Ball, but that doesn't *have* to happen. You could do either/or.

[Matches Malone]

It's that fight that gets Goku to think about the next generation?

It makes far more sense that Goku would see that as motivation to get stronger and explore the infinite possibilities because there are more hills to climb.

Just as Roshi realized while fighting Tien that his time was over, so did Goku while fighting Beerus.

Financially, it does, as it makes sense to milk Goku's story for all its worth. What about creatively though ? We've gotten 6 stories after BOG, What did they add to Goku's story ? and Vegeta's for that matter ? nothing. We got cool fights and moments, but nothing of actual substance. Goku and Vegeta fight someone, they train some more, fight someone else, so on and so forth. When it comes to the story of Goku and his friends, it was told perfectly in the manga, Z's 2 TV specials, & BOG. There was no need to drag it out for an additional 6 stories, with more on the way. BOG should've been their final hurrah before fully transitioning to the next gen, mentored by Goku and the others.

I used to think Goku vs Uub was a really anti climatic end, I mean it was base Goku vs a little kid. I never hated that ending, in fact I love it and I am fine with it being a tamed fight.

Without BOG, the ending of the manga is very anti-climactic and out of nowhere. The fight with Buu simply never gave me the impression that Goku's time was up, which is kind of what EOZ was going for.

Plugging in a new cast would feel pointless, because it would just feel like a new anime where they kept the Dragon Ball logo for marketing purposes. Like, I really don't see the point of wanting a new cast. They might as well just make a brand new anime.

You wouldn't be saying good bye to the old cast, they'd still be there in a mentoring role. They can even take care of the big bad every now and then. It'd be better to try something new than refusing to let go of the past like what's going on now.

[ABED]

And Star Trek is a story made for that sort of thing you're talking about. It's literally about exploring new worlds. In that case it's very much about the world. The settings are as much a part of the story as the characters.

Just as Roshi realized while fighting Tien that his time was over, so did Goku while fighting Beerus.

Roshi was several hundred years old, on the decline, and at that point in his life liked being alone. Goku is constantly getting stronger is nowhere near his prime, and Saiyans stay young for longer than normal humans. For a guy that looks to for greater mountains to climb, to find out the universe is way bigger than he imagined and full of beings stronger than he thought, and after reaching a level he never thought possible, it seems odd that he would think about passing everything to the next generation.

BOG should've been their final hurrah before fully transitioning to the next gen, mentored by Goku and the others.

No, that's the perfect time for the last hurrah and that's it. Forget the next generation. That's the epilogue. Goku and co. were the next generation. I have no interest in watching history repeat itself just to keep the brand going.

Without BOG, the ending of the manga is very anti-climactic and out of nowhere. The fight with Buu simply never gave me the impression that Goku's time was up, which is kind of what EOZ was going for.

You wouldn't be saying good bye to the old cast, they'd still be there in a mentoring role. They can even take care of the big bad every now and then. It'd be better to try something new than refusing to let go of the past like what's going on now.

The ending wasn't about Goku's time being up or even about Goku becoming a mentor, it was about Goku being excited there were more mountains to climb

If the story you're pitching is the old characters being mentors then seeing it from that perspective instead of the next gen's would be something different.

[Mad Swami]

It's that fight that gets Goku to think about the next generation?

It makes far more sense that Goku would see that as motivation to get stronger and explore the infinite possibilities because there are more hills to climb.

Just as Roshi realized while fighting Tien that his time was over, so did Goku while fighting Beerus.

Financially, it does, as it makes sense to milk Goku's story for all its worth. What about creatively though ? We've gotten 6 stories after BOG, What did they add to Goku's story ? and Vegeta's for that matter ? nothing. We got cool fights and moments, but nothing of actual substance. Goku and Vegeta fight someone, they train some more, fight someone else, so on and so forth. When it comes to the story of Goku and his friends, it was told perfectly in the manga, Z's 2 TV specials, & BOG. There was no need to drag it out for an additional 6 stories, with more on the way. BOG should've been their final hurrah before fully transitioning to the next gen, mentored by Goku and the others.

I used to think Goku vs Uub was a really anti climatic end, I mean it was base Goku vs a little kid. I never hated that ending, in fact I love it and I am fine with it being a tamed fight.

Without BOG, the ending of the manga is very anti-climactic and out of nowhere. The fight with Buu simply never gave me the impression that Goku's time was up, which is kind of what EOZ was going for.

Yeah I could see that. However Buuhan could also work as the ceiling for Goku but they never played with that

[Matches Malone]

For a guy that looks to for greater mountains to climb, to find out the universe is way bigger than he imagined and full of beings stronger than he thought, and after reaching a level he never thought possible, it seems odd that he would think about passing everything to the next generation.

No, that's the perfect time for the last hurrah and that's it. Forget the next generation. That's the epilogue.

If the story you're pitching is the old characters being mentors then seeing it from that perspective instead of the next gen's would be something different.

You're not wrong about that, but how long can you follow Goku before it gets old ? We're already in that stage of things being stale and repetitive. Starting with RF, every arc begins with Goku and/or Vegeta training with Whis, something happens, they take care of it, and it's back to training with Whis until the next thing happens. Goku and Vegeta are basically the same characters they were at the start of BOG. I know you're not a fan of this next gen idea, but isn't that better than just doing the same thing over and over again ?

If I was given the option, DB would've ended at BOG. If it had to continue though, I think there's potential in what I and many have been asking for.

I'm pitching a mixture of the 2. We'd see the world through the eyes of the next gen, as well as how it is for the old cast to become teachers and take on such a responsibility. For example, there could be a graduation exam that the students have to take in order to graduate from their respective martial arts teachers, which can then be followed by a threat only Goku and the others can handle. It's not an either or, we can have both, and under the right author, it can be done well.

[Lord Beerus]

And after a while, it's the same thing just a few details have changed. That's not Dragon Ball. It gets a little boring after a while. I'm a big fan of James Bond, but 007 movies are mostly the same. Why do you feel the desire to change DB into something it's not? Why do you want it to become Gundam or Power Rangers?

I'm not changing jack shit. I'm just saying that Dragon Ball is basically the adventures and stories of a group of martial artists. A narrative that is as old as time. And just like how Toiryama applied that concept to Goku and the rest, it be done in equally effective way with a new cast of character under a different creator.

Then what's the point of calling it DB? At that point, it's just marketing. DB isn't a setting, it's a story. The world exists for Goku and his merry band, not the other way around. Why not create a new fictional universe with rules you want to explore ideas you find interesting that happens to be influenced by DB?

Um... it's set in the same world as when the story of Dragon Ball began? If the story was named after the character there would be more of a case, but Goku story is not only one that is told. It's certainly the most significant, and is given the most amount of spotlight, but lets not take anything away from the other martial artists who's character arc make Dragon Ball a very interesting read to begin with. There are other martial artists that can exist in the same world that Goku did.

If I may interject with my own thoughts. I think Goku is truly Dragon Ball. Sure the world is fun and the over all idea of martial artist bettering themselves is applicable to other characters. It's what Goku as a character represents to the story and world of Dragon Ball. He is the light in everyone's dark world to help guide them out. Characters like Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks, and of course Vegeta are all people who carried flawed ideals and mentalities but Goku helped save them. In a way, Dragon Ball is more than just a martial artist bettering himself, it's about striving to be the best you everyday by over coming internal issues. Now of course Goku isn't a perfect Jesus like figure, but there is something he has which makes Dragon Ball, Dragon ball. When his run is up, I think the story ends with him. IMO

You're overestimating Goku's influence WAY too much. That's not to say he hasn't had an effect on some people's live, but he doesn't go out of his to save people, or be the "the light in everyone's dark world to help guide them out". He's just a martial artist who looks for the next challenge and is even willing the gamble with the lives of many for the sake of good fight or to test others. He's not the kind of character to preach to someone about some kind of righteous way of living or is ever portrayed as a positive social influence. There are just other martial artists Goku comes across every now and again who over time come to respect him for how well he advances in his craft.

Not comparable. Star Trek (real Star Trek, aka nothing after like 2005 at the latest) is about the world and the situations the characters run into as well as how they deal with them. There is a ton of focus on these situations and therefore there are a lot of important details in the Star Trek universe that add up to some really great stories. Each episode is a completely separate story and the characters, although usually really good, don't make extremely noticeable development from episode to episode. Since the details in Star Trek are so important you can easily plug in a new cast in this universe that feels legitimately large and cohesive.

On the other hand, the details in Dragon Ball's world are not important, nor are they clearly defined. Plugging in a new cast would feel pointless, because it would just feel like a new anime where they kept the Dragon Ball logo for marketing purposes. Like, I really don't see the point of wanting a new cast. They might as well just make a brand new anime.

Fair enough point with the Star Trek comparison.

But here's the current problem: Dragon Ball wants to tell more stories.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but part of what made original manga such a good read was seeing the character grow and develop with every new story arc. That aspect of the narrative, especially with where Dragon Ball these days wants to tell its stories, can't work because...

a) The main cast's character arcs have either ended or an ending is in place for them
b) the major characters (Goku and Vegeta) have become so stupidly powerful or have stupidly powerful allies (Beerus and Whis) that it reduces the tension immensely

There's nowhere left to go for characters like Goku, Vegeta, Bulma, Gohan, Piccolo and the rest. Their stories, for all intents and purposes, have ended. I don't want to see Krillin shave his head again and regain his fighting spirit. I don't want guys like Tenshinhan and Yamcha to have token cameos to remind fans they still exist. I don't want to see Bulma complaining about her age and getting older. I don't want to see Roshi come out of retirement again for old times sake. I don't want to see Vegeta trying to catch up to Goku in vain. It's all over done. If Dragon Ball wants to tell more stories, it DESPERATELY needs to the move the fuck on already from the old cast. They're beyond spent.

Dragon Ball, as much as it was about following the adventures of a bunch of martial arts, was also about moving forward and recognising when it was time step out of the spotlight and let others carry the torch. Toriyama and Toei may have chickened out on that concept when it came to telling stories that didn't revolve around Goku, but that doesn't others should.

[LoganForkHands73]

For example, there could be a graduation exam that the students have to take in order to graduate from their respective martial arts teachers, which can then be followed by a threat only Goku and the others can handle. It's not an either or, we can have both, and under the right author, it can be done well.

Ew, nononono. Absolutely nadah. Sorry for the overreaction, I've become deathly allergic to this high school-ification cliche that frame the old characters as literal teachers with exams and classes n stuff. That sort of formality wouldn't fit Dragon Ball at all imo.

Instead of a full-on next gen sequel series, I think perhaps more quirky, very distantly-related spin-offs like Jaco (all penned by Toriyama and Toyotaro) would be the way to go. Stories that can completely stand on their own with no artificial Dragon Ball branding, maybe the only occasional wink and a nod towards those crazy Saiyans on Earth but nothing too intrusive. Dragon Ball Online had a decent "distant future" premise but I'd prefer if the actual Dragon Ball references were even more periphery. No Time Patrol or gratuitous cameos. Goku and Vegeta's final clash is the one bit of lore everybody remembers, so if they have to delve into that they should save it to the very end... or just not delve into it at all.

[ABED]

For a guy that looks to for greater mountains to climb, to find out the universe is way bigger than he imagined and full of beings stronger than he thought, and after reaching a level he never thought possible, it seems odd that he would think about passing everything to the next generation.

No, that's the perfect time for the last hurrah and that's it. Forget the next generation. That's the epilogue.

If the story you're pitching is the old characters being mentors then seeing it from that perspective instead of the next gen's would be something different.

You're not wrong about that, but how long can you follow Goku before it gets old ? We're already in that stage of things being stale and repetitive. Starting with RF, every arc begins with Goku and/or Vegeta training with Whis, something happens, they take care of it, and it's back to training with Whis until the next thing happens. Goku and Vegeta are basically the same characters they were at the start of BOG. I know you're not a fan of this next gen idea, but isn't that better than just doing the same thing over and over again ?

If I was given the option, DB would've ended at BOG. If it had to continue though, I think there's potential in what I and many have been asking for.

I'm pitching a mixture of the 2. We'd see the world through the eyes of the next gen, as well as how it is for the old cast to become teachers and take on such a responsibility. For example, there could be a graduation exam that the students have to take in order to graduate from their respective martial arts teachers, which can then be followed by a threat only Goku and the others can handle. It's not an either or, we can have both, and under the right author, it can be done well.

This is why you end stories full stop. The stage where things got stale and repetitive has long since past. It happened in the original run of the manga. Putting new characters in the lead is just pulling the taffy. The next gen seems like it's doing something new but it's still doing the same things over again.

it be done in equally effective way with a new cast of character under a different creator.

No it can't, and you know, they could take that story and make one of their own, and not just slap DB on the cover to milk the brand for all its worth.

If the story is going to continue, I don't give a damn about the next generation. I want to follow the characters I know and love at a later stage in their lives.

I keep harping on this but stories are more than just writing. It's lightning in a bottle.

I feel the same way about this as I do about Into the Spider-verse. I still can't fathom why anyone finds Miles story interesting when it's mostly an origin story we've seen before and Peter's is genuinely fresh. We've never seen a Peter at that point in his life - he's in his 40s, estranged from MJ after years of marriage and has seen it all when it comes to crime fighting. He's not quite cynical but he's a little bored by it all as he's been there, done that.

If the story was named after the character there would be more of a case, but Goku story is not only one that is told. It's certainly the most significant, and is given the most amount of spotlight, but lets not take anything away from the other martial artists who's character arc make Dragon Ball a very interesting read to begin with. There are other martial artists that can exist in the same world that Goku did.

A story doesn't need to be named after the main character to be about them. Dragon Ball was the title because it sounds better than Son Goku, but make no mistake, it's about Son Goku. It's not about the world or the seven McGuffins. And when I say it's Goku's story, I'm not saying the supporting characters aren't important. Justified was about Raylan Givens and while the other characters are important and help make his story so interesting, it's still fundamentally his story.

I agree that Goku's story has ended. His and the other character's stories have reached their natural end point and that's why you bring it to a close. The Good Place could follow another group of people and explore more of the afterlife but the point was made. It's time to end it and move on. All good things end.

[Matches Malone]

Ew, nononono. Absolutely nadah. Sorry for the overreaction, I've become deathly allergic to this high school-ification cliche that frame the old characters as literal teachers with exams and classes n stuff. That sort of formality wouldn't fit Dragon Ball at all imo.

I should've been more clear, Exams as in the Shonen exams in Naruto, or the hunter exams in Hunter X hunter. There'll be no classrooms or anything like that.

[MyVisionity]

I don't think Dragon Ball is really a "pass the torch" type series. Once the main characters are done, the story is done. And you can't move forward with something that is already done, as Super has proven.

If for some reason someone wanted to move forward with Dragon Ball, then the only way is to tell a brand new story unconnected to the old story.

[Mad Swami]

You're overestimating Goku's influence WAY too much. That's not to say he hasn't had an effect on some people's live, but he doesn't go out of his to save people, or be the "the light in everyone's dark world to help guide them out". He's just a martial artist who looks for the next challenge and is even willing the gamble with the lives of many for the sake of good fight or to test others. He's not the kind of character to preach to someone about some kind of righteous way of living or is ever portrayed as a positive social influence. There are just other martial artists Goku comes across every now and again who over time come to respect him for how well he advances in his craft.

I'm not saying he is a good guy or a preacher, but he is a flat character. The flat character is someone who goes through little change due to them already being familiar with the truth. It's their determination that inspires and changes others. Goku is so complete already that he helps others become complete. Goku is Dragonball, the closet thing we could ever see is a story like Cell saga but with Uub but in the end once Goku is done, so is DB

[LoganForkHands73]

I'm not saying he is a good guy or a preacher, but he is a flat character. The flat character is someone who goes through little change due to them already being familiar with the truth. It's their determination that inspires and changes others. Goku is so complete already that he helps others become complete. Goku is Dragonball, the closet thing we could ever see is a story like Cell saga but with Uub but in the end once Goku is done, so is DB

I know that's a Totally Not Mark-ism but I've always been iffy on this argument that Goku is a Flat Character. Maybe he counts as one now in the current long status quo, but Goku changed massively throughout the original manga story. The animalistic kid from the wilderness is a completely different person from the proud Super Saiyan warrior that he became. The argument can be made that most of the Dragon Ball cast including Vegeta are Flat Characters as this point, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I'd say it's always been more transactionary than people make out as well. Goku may change his old enemies and friends for the better in most cases, but they teach him as well. Piccolo had to step in as the voice of sanity when Goku sent their son (sorrycouldn'tresistthelowhangingfruit) Gohan into battle and forced Goku to realise that what he was doing was wrong. Before that, Frieza gives him a needed reality check that the universe isn't just Goku's consequence-free sandbox, that there are evil, unrepentant monsters out there that shouldn't be shown mercy on either a moralistic or practical level.

[Matches Malone]

I've always been iffy on this argument that Goku is a Flat Character. Maybe he counts as one now in the current long status quo, but Goku changed massively throughout the original manga story.

Same here. You can clearly see Goku change from arc to arc, as he trains with new masters and learns new things about life. Now though, yeah, he and everyone else are as flat as the ground we walk on. If anything, they've actually regressed.

[WittyUsername]

I'm not saying he is a good guy or a preacher, but he is a flat character. The flat character is someone who goes through little change due to them already being familiar with the truth. It's their determination that inspires and changes others. Goku is so complete already that he helps others become complete. Goku is Dragonball, the closet thing we could ever see is a story like Cell saga but with Uub but in the end once Goku is done, so is DB

I know that's a Totally Not Mark-ism but I've always been iffy on this argument that Goku is a Flat Character. Maybe he counts as one now in the current long status quo, but Goku changed massively throughout the original manga story. The animalistic kid from the wilderness is a completely different person from the proud Super Saiyan warrior that he became. The argument can be made that most of the Dragon Ball cast including Vegeta are Flat Characters as this point, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I'd say it's always been more transactionary than people make out as well. Goku may change his old enemies and friends for the better in most cases, but they teach him as well. Piccolo had to step in as the voice of sanity when Goku sent their son (sorrycouldn'tresistthelowhangingfruit) Gohan into battle and forced Goku to realise that what he was doing was wrong. Before that, Frieza gives him a needed reality check that the universe isn't just Goku's consequence-free sandbox, that there are evil, unrepentant monsters out there that shouldn't be shown mercy on either a moralistic or practical level.

Eh. I’d definitely say that there’s a good argument that Goku is a flat character. He starts off the series as a simple minded hick who has no real ambitions in life beyond fighting, and that doesn’t change by the end. Outside of becoming stronger, he doesn’t really go through any changes over the course of the story. He’s a pretty basic character. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but when it comes to character development, there are much better examples within the franchise.