Is no pysical change to strength increase satisfying?

[Mad Swami]

Similar to a thread about humans and Piccolo. What are satisfying power ups for other races?

Why for Piccolo is it acceptable that he has no physical change but can compete with SSJ not a a far stretch, but an alien like say Daiz, or Tien even (half alien) they can't. I am speaking personally. While I understand feats matter and Daiz is fodder times a incalculable number at this point and well in all honesty so is Tien, What makes it seem so impossible for them to get strong like Piccolo?

I think this sounds really messy so I am going to try and elaborate. Why can't a human looking alien perform like Piccolo without transforming? This question mostly boils down to, why would it be weird for an alien like Tien to posses strength comparable to a SSJ naturally but it is not weird for an alien like Piccolo?

This question leads to my main one, what would be satisfying ways for them to keep up. Not necessarily with gods but like how could an alien that isn't a saiyan and that looks pretty much human, keep up with the gold SSJ forms?

[Lionel]

It shouldn't be impossible for these characters, I agree. We see how various nondescript humanoids of other universes are apparently capable of making enormous strides. You're telling me they can elevate their strength to levels that would likely put any Kaioshin to shame for untold reasons yet when it comes to our homeborn human fighters they can't so much as contend with lackeys whom kid Trunks -- who probably isn't training much, if at all -- could take down with no issues?

I wouldn't have any problems with the humans learning the Kaioken and having their potential unlocked. Both of these ideas aren't transformation-based. Super Saiyan is powerful, yes, but it's not insurmountable. I mean you had a film released in the same month, before the chapter that unveiled SSJ, I believe, which flirted with the concept of an amplifier that's double SSJ's established multiple. Why could this concept not be applied to the canon material while equipping it to the humans and Piccolo? It's silly, in my opinion.

[Mad Swami]

It shouldn't be impossible for these characters, I agree. We see how various nondescript humanoids of other universes are apparently capable of making enormous strides. You're telling me they can elevate their strength to levels that would likely put any Kaioshin to shame for untold reasons yet when it comes to our homeborn human fighters they can't so much as contend with lackeys whom kid Trunks -- who probably isn't training much, if at all -- could take down with no issues?

I wouldn't have any problems with the humans learning the Kaioken and having their potential unlocked. Both of these ideas aren't transformation-based. Super Saiyan is powerful, yes, but it's not insurmountable. I mean you had a film released in the same month, before the chapter that unveiled SSJ, I believe, which flirted with the concept of an amplifier that's double SSJ's established multiple. Why could this concept not be applied to the canon material while equipping it to the humans and Piccolo? It's silly, in my opinion.

Yeah exactly, I feel it shouldn't be only Namekians and Saiyans capable of hitting 150M++

[Lionel]

It shouldn't be impossible for these characters, I agree. We see how various nondescript humanoids of other universes are apparently capable of making enormous strides. You're telling me they can elevate their strength to levels that would likely put any Kaioshin to shame for untold reasons yet when it comes to our homeborn human fighters they can't so much as contend with lackeys whom kid Trunks -- who probably isn't training much, if at all -- could take down with no issues?

I wouldn't have any problems with the humans learning the Kaioken and having their potential unlocked. Both of these ideas aren't transformation-based. Super Saiyan is powerful, yes, but it's not insurmountable. I mean you had a film released in the same month, before the chapter that unveiled SSJ, I believe, which flirted with the concept of an amplifier that's double SSJ's established multiple. Why could this concept not be applied to the canon material while equipping it to the humans and Piccolo? It's silly, in my opinion.

Yeah exactly, I feel it shouldn't be only Namekians and Saiyans capable of hitting 150M++

I think a possible explanation for it is that Toriyama was wanting to prioritise -- you know, shift the narrative over towards -- the Saiyans who were popular. Plus, it was likely easier for him to write out how they grow more powerful as they're all the same species and can just transform to increase their strength. Unfortunately, despite there being a decades long hiatus and with an eager new artist in the mangaka's seat, there still doesn't appear to be much being given to the humans now. I guess we should be appreciative that they're even fighting at all. I will give credit for Chaozu and Yamcha's appearances. Chaozu hasn't been involved in a proper fight in the manga since Krillin! You know, not counting any failed kamikaze or telekinetic efforts.

There does seem to be a demand for the non-Saiyans to participate in the fighting. I mean, why else would Toriyama bring them back after so long if there wasn't? But it's like he doesn't want to offer the kind of long-term investment that could really help these characters to become ingrained in the broader picture while tackling their own martial artist's journey.

You mentioned Tenshinhan. I think I've proposed this before but when people say that there's not much to his character or that he seems like a bland one-dimensional no-nonsense former villain who likes to train I point out that there are facets to his character which I dare say may be as interesting as Vegeta's family dynamic or the remorse he holds for his sordid history with the Namekians. We know Tenshinhan harbours a conflicted relationship with the Crane school. He's denounced their ideology yet he doesn't seem to have abandoned the school as Dragon Ball Online portrays. We also know that Tenshinhan seems to retain a certain level of weariness towards Vegeta and Piccolo for their villainous pasts, not relying to be reliant on them for his safety.

Perhaps a desire for redeeming the Crane school and not wanting to be helpless and ineffectual on the battlefield could serve as Tenshinhan's own sub-plot? The elements are there. I think Toriyama/Toyotaro just has to pick them up and do something with them.

[Mad Swami]

It shouldn't be impossible for these characters, I agree. We see how various nondescript humanoids of other universes are apparently capable of making enormous strides. You're telling me they can elevate their strength to levels that would likely put any Kaioshin to shame for untold reasons yet when it comes to our homeborn human fighters they can't so much as contend with lackeys whom kid Trunks -- who probably isn't training much, if at all -- could take down with no issues?

I wouldn't have any problems with the humans learning the Kaioken and having their potential unlocked. Both of these ideas aren't transformation-based. Super Saiyan is powerful, yes, but it's not insurmountable. I mean you had a film released in the same month, before the chapter that unveiled SSJ, I believe, which flirted with the concept of an amplifier that's double SSJ's established multiple. Why could this concept not be applied to the canon material while equipping it to the humans and Piccolo? It's silly, in my opinion.

Yeah exactly, I feel it shouldn't be only Namekians and Saiyans capable of hitting 150M++

I think a possible explanation for it is that Toriyama was wanting to prioritise -- you know, shift the narrative over towards -- the Saiyans who were popular. Plus, it was likely easier for him to write out how they grow more powerful as they're all the same species and can just transform to increase their strength. Unfortunately, despite there being a decades long hiatus and with an eager new artist in the mangaka's seat, there still doesn't appear to be much being given to the humans now. I guess we should be appreciative that they're even fighting at all. I will give credit for Chaozu and Yamcha's appearances. Chaozu hasn't been involved in a proper fight in the manga since Krillin! You know, not counting any failed kamikaze or telekinetic efforts.

There does seem to be a demand for the non-Saiyans to participate in the fighting. I mean, why else would Toriyama bring them back after so long if there wasn't? But it's like he doesn't want to offer the kind of long-term investment that could really help these characters to become ingrained in the broader picture while tackling their own martial artist's journey.

You mentioned Tenshinhan. I think I've proposed this before but when people say that there's not much to his character or that he seems like a bland one-dimensional no-nonsense former villain who likes to train I point out that there are facets to his character which I dare say may be as interesting as Vegeta's family dynamic or the remorse he holds for his sordid history with the Namekians. We know Tenshinhan harbours a conflicted relationship with the Crane school. He's denounced their ideology yet he doesn't seem to have abandoned the school as Dragon Ball Online portrays. We also know that Tenshinhan seems to retain a certain level of weariness towards Vegeta and Piccolo for their villainous pasts, not relying to be reliant on them for his safety.

Perhaps a desire for redeeming the Crane school and not wanting to be helpless and ineffectual on the battlefield could serve as Tenshinhan's own sub-plot? The elements are there. I think Toriyama/Toyotaro just has to pick them up and do something with them.

Yeah and this might sound silly, but I thought if not used as the big end all of transformations, Ultra Instinct would be a neat way to keep Tien relevant. Make it a triclops racial technique he learns and you have a power up. Couple that with an arc of past redemption and you have a cool character with new life. Not that I don't like ultra instinct as what it is just a thought

[Lionel]

Yeah exactly, I feel it shouldn't be only Namekians and Saiyans capable of hitting 150M++

I think a possible explanation for it is that Toriyama was wanting to prioritise -- you know, shift the narrative over towards -- the Saiyans who were popular. Plus, it was likely easier for him to write out how they grow more powerful as they're all the same species and can just transform to increase their strength. Unfortunately, despite there being a decades long hiatus and with an eager new artist in the mangaka's seat, there still doesn't appear to be much being given to the humans now. I guess we should be appreciative that they're even fighting at all. I will give credit for Chaozu and Yamcha's appearances. Chaozu hasn't been involved in a proper fight in the manga since Krillin! You know, not counting any failed kamikaze or telekinetic efforts.

There does seem to be a demand for the non-Saiyans to participate in the fighting. I mean, why else would Toriyama bring them back after so long if there wasn't? But it's like he doesn't want to offer the kind of long-term investment that could really help these characters to become ingrained in the broader picture while tackling their own martial artist's journey.

You mentioned Tenshinhan. I think I've proposed this before but when people say that there's not much to his character or that he seems like a bland one-dimensional no-nonsense former villain who likes to train I point out that there are facets to his character which I dare say may be as interesting as Vegeta's family dynamic or the remorse he holds for his sordid history with the Namekians. We know Tenshinhan harbours a conflicted relationship with the Crane school. He's denounced their ideology yet he doesn't seem to have abandoned the school as Dragon Ball Online portrays. We also know that Tenshinhan seems to retain a certain level of weariness towards Vegeta and Piccolo for their villainous pasts, not relying to be reliant on them for his safety.

Perhaps a desire for redeeming the Crane school and not wanting to be helpless and ineffectual on the battlefield could serve as Tenshinhan's own sub-plot? The elements are there. I think Toriyama/Toyotaro just has to pick them up and do something with them.

Yeah and this might sound silly, but I thought if not used as the big end all of transformations, Ultra Instinct would be a neat way to keep Tien relevant. Make it a triclops racial technique he learns and you have a power up. Couple that with an arc of past redemption and you have a cool character with new life. Not that I don't like ultra instinct as what it is just a thought

Someone as committed and knowledgeable in martial arts as Tenshinhan would make a prime candidate for the Ultra Instinct power out of anyone from the human (ish) category. Image what he could do with his Shiyoken combined with Ultra Instinct. Yes, Goku countered it by imitating the technique through rapidly moving his arms, but it should be noted that Tenshinhan never returned that favour despite being shown capable of imitating techniques in his previous fights.

[Mad Swami]

I think a possible explanation for it is that Toriyama was wanting to prioritise -- you know, shift the narrative over towards -- the Saiyans who were popular. Plus, it was likely easier for him to write out how they grow more powerful as they're all the same species and can just transform to increase their strength. Unfortunately, despite there being a decades long hiatus and with an eager new artist in the mangaka's seat, there still doesn't appear to be much being given to the humans now. I guess we should be appreciative that they're even fighting at all. I will give credit for Chaozu and Yamcha's appearances. Chaozu hasn't been involved in a proper fight in the manga since Krillin! You know, not counting any failed kamikaze or telekinetic efforts.

There does seem to be a demand for the non-Saiyans to participate in the fighting. I mean, why else would Toriyama bring them back after so long if there wasn't? But it's like he doesn't want to offer the kind of long-term investment that could really help these characters to become ingrained in the broader picture while tackling their own martial artist's journey.

You mentioned Tenshinhan. I think I've proposed this before but when people say that there's not much to his character or that he seems like a bland one-dimensional no-nonsense former villain who likes to train I point out that there are facets to his character which I dare say may be as interesting as Vegeta's family dynamic or the remorse he holds for his sordid history with the Namekians. We know Tenshinhan harbours a conflicted relationship with the Crane school. He's denounced their ideology yet he doesn't seem to have abandoned the school as Dragon Ball Online portrays. We also know that Tenshinhan seems to retain a certain level of weariness towards Vegeta and Piccolo for their villainous pasts, not relying to be reliant on them for his safety.

Perhaps a desire for redeeming the Crane school and not wanting to be helpless and ineffectual on the battlefield could serve as Tenshinhan's own sub-plot? The elements are there. I think Toriyama/Toyotaro just has to pick them up and do something with them.

Yeah and this might sound silly, but I thought if not used as the big end all of transformations, Ultra Instinct would be a neat way to keep Tien relevant. Make it a triclops racial technique he learns and you have a power up. Couple that with an arc of past redemption and you have a cool character with new life. Not that I don't like ultra instinct as what it is just a thought

Someone as committed and knowledgeable in martial arts as Tenshinhan would make a prime candidate for the Ultra Instinct power out of anyone from the human (ish) category. Image what he could do with his Shiyoken combined with Ultra Instinct. Yes, Goku countered it by imitating the technique through rapidly moving his arms, but it should be noted that Tenshinhan never returned that favour despite being shown capable of imitating techniques in his previous fights.

Exactly!