"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Grand Marshal 1]

This is beginning to feel more and more like it will truly end up being a filler arc, unfortunately.

I have a hunch that whatever comes next has already been written by Toriyama, and that Goku will get Ultra Instinct and Vegeta something else and that’s why Toyotaro was able to fill in the gaps this way.

The fact that Vegeta will conveniently NEVER use Instant Transmission again is weird. Does it mean that the next time a situation arises that needs both Goku and Vegeta to teleport somewhere, that Vegeta will just grab Goku’s hand again?

I really hope the technique Vegeta has learned and that Toyotaro has been hyping up for 1 years ends up being something really cool AND especially something that won’t just be discarded the next arc or just work on Moro.
Considering how it seems like Toriyama had no plans for Vegeta’s future, besides that he won’t achieve Ultra Instinct, I wouldn’t mind it if Toyotaro, possibly with Toriyama’s help, has come up with something Vegeta-exclusive which will rival Ultra Instinct. And that something may very well be this technique Vegeta will use.

I say this because I am afraid this arc will end up being just kinda filler stuff, and that would diminish my enjoyment of it on later re-reads. It’s already been dragged a lot compared to the other manga’s arcs, and that doesn’t help when re-reading it.

Agreed. Although to be honest, even if Vegeta does, indeed, go forth with something that will rival Ultra Instinct, we lack a necessary background to it. What I mean is: we have been having this huge build-up to Ultra Instinct, as the pinnacle of power, that anything else should not even remotely approach it in technique/strength/ability etc.

Having Vegeta go through Yadratian training (the same training nearly that Goku did back when Super Saiyan was considered a major thing) and attaining something special that won't be disregarded after Moro, sounds unlikely.

I am afraid that your con ern will come to pass. Unless if this Arc is the beginning of something new. Then perhaps we can kinda accept it as a 'filler' Arc, given that the next one actually expands upon the current. Which is questionable given the fact that we are in this discussion in the first place (can Toyotsro truly pull off such maneuvers with the story?).

Let's see I guess.

Spoiler:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EYTUOETXsAA ... name=large

Spoiler:

Did Goku just go SSB while in UI Omen?

Spoiler:

Wooww wait a minute

Also hi Noitsnothim, it's been a while mate!

Spoiler:

I think he is trying to power stress Omen like he did with Perfected Blue. Can't be sure. A transformation in Omen seems a bit op/fanservice tbh.

Spoiler:

way too long sounds gr8 to hear from you friend!

I think your theory is way better and sounds more right than mine Goku's digging deep into his reserves as UI Omen and he looks more accurate to his anime design

Well it's just a theory. We got Omen Goku powering up several times in the Anime, but we know that there was some reasoning behind it (Goku building up that 'heat' to maintain max performance for longer periods of time). So this may just be showcasing Goku doing something entirely else lol.

[emperior]

So if this statement from the summary I just read is correct: "Yadorats state they are forbidden to use Instant Transmission to go to other planets".

Then we go back to an old question that should have already been answered: why and how the hell there is an Yadorat (and a Tsufurujin) in the Universe 2 team in the Tournament of Power?

I thought the same thing! Maybe he is a rogue Yardratian? Honestly he should have been a member of U6, I wonder if they messed up and put Dr Rota and Jimizu in the wrong team and therefore the manga had to go along with it.

By the way he appears in the manga too but is never acknowledged if I remember correctly.

It’s also possible he left the Planet with a spaceship.

[Matches Malone]

The fact that Vegeta will conveniently NEVER use Instant Transmission again is weird.

What would be weird is if he did use it more. As he said, this is a Kakarot technique, so his pride simply won't allow him to copy the moves of others. That's not to say he won't use it during an emergency, but there's no way he'll use it on a regular basis.

In terms of the filler feeling, it feels more important than RF, which was written completely by Toriyama. If it leaves some impact on the canon, it'll be more important than the Black arc as well.

He would not have dared to become stronger in the process?

He's vastly stronger (as seen in a previous chapter), I just don't think it involves a new form.

[Kinokima]

I honestly think I would rather have Vegeta not learn IT at all. Even saying he won’t use it again because it’s a Goku move is dumb. So his pride won’t let him use a Goku move but he will rely on Goku by holding his hand instead? lol

I think saying Vegeta didn’t have time to learn IT on top of another move would have made more sense. And Vegeta is in a planet full of IT users so realistically he didn’t need to learn it.

It is what it is. But I would rather Vegeta just learn his own things than get what Goku already has. Let each of them be unique ( not just their personalities)

[Matches Malone]

I honestly think I would rather have Vegeta not learn IT at all. Even saying he won’t use it again because it’s a Goku move is dumb.

How is it dumb ? it's completely in character for him not to. Why not go a step further and say he should go to King Kai and ask to learn Kaioken and the spirit bomb ? exactly, because it'd be out of character.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I don't understand the nonchalant attitude Beerus and Whis have towards Moro. Wouldn't a planet eating being causing havoc throughout the universe and beating Goku's ass have some type of...impact? Whis is keeping up with things, but it sounds like Beerus has no idea about the events taking place. I'd expect Beerus to at least wanna observe the battle. They really don't care. What would it take for Beerus to actually care?

[Matches Malone]

I don't understand the nonchalant attitude Beerus and Whis have towards Moro. Wouldn't a planet eating being causing havoc throughout the universe and beating Goku's ass have some type of...impact? Whis is keeping up with things, but it sounds like Beerus has no idea about the events taking place. I'd expect Beerus to at least wanna observe the battle. They really don't care.

There's also the fact that U7's strongest fighters are on earth, so them dying will weaken U7's position within the universe rankings. I do however love this development, as it shows no matter how many times Beerus and Whis laugh with them, they'd as soon laugh at them die. It also shows that in regards to the balance of things, earth doesn't get any exceptions, so there's a possibility that if it's not destroyed by a villain, it could be by Beerus. I really hope they follow this up, because I think eventually Goku and Vegeta are going to have to pick between earth getting destroyed and putting Beerus down permanently.

[Miracles]

I don't understand the nonchalant attitude Beerus and Whis have towards Moro. Wouldn't a planet eating being causing havoc throughout the universe and beating Goku's ass have some type of...impact? Whis is keeping up with things, but it sounds like Beerus has no idea about the events taking place. I'd expect Beerus to at least wanna observe the battle. They really don't care. What would it take for Beerus to actually care?

Everyone wants Beerus attention!

The guy is so coool!

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I don't understand the nonchalant attitude Beerus and Whis have towards Moro. Wouldn't a planet eating being causing havoc throughout the universe and beating Goku's ass have some type of...impact? Whis is keeping up with things, but it sounds like Beerus has no idea about the events taking place. I'd expect Beerus to at least wanna observe the battle. They really don't care. What would it take for Beerus to actually care?

Whis can't really do anything, he isn't allowed so he has a pass. Angels are apathetic for the most part and Whis does seem to be watching over the battle so its not like he's unaware of anything. He just can't do anything cause Angel law and stuff.

Beerus is just an asshole whose lack of foresight is the reason we're in this mess as it is. You'd think Beerus would care that their quality of life is pretty damn low and that Goku and his friends dying and allowing a planet eating lunatic run around would be a bit concerning but...its Beerus. Shouldn't expect him to be competent.

Hell, Beerus is only competent when he's literally PUSHED into the situation, and even then, he just does the bare minimum and expects Goku and Vegeta to do the rest as they bust their asses off to fight. It would take someone having to be an actual threat to him and his existence for Beerus to get off his ass and say 'Alright, that's far enough.'

[Kinokima]

I honestly think I would rather have Vegeta not learn IT at all. Even saying he won’t use it again because it’s a Goku move is dumb.

How is it dumb ? it's completely in character for him not to. Why not go a step further and say he should go to King Kai and ask to learn Kaioken and the spirit bomb ? exactly, because it'd be out of character.

So he is too prideful to use it again but not to prideful to hold Goku’s hand if they have to go somewhere just flying won’t cut it? Come on!

Saying he is never going to use it again for that reason makes no sense.

I think you missed the point of my post.

[Grimlock]

I thought the same thing! Maybe he is a rogue Yardratian? Honestly he should have been a member of U6, I wonder if they messed up and put Dr Rota and Jimizu in the wrong team and therefore the manga had to go along with it.

By the way he appears in the manga too but is never acknowledged if I remember correctly.

It’s also possible he left the Planet with a spaceship.

Since Dragon Ball Super did a wonderful job developing that character, we can't know for sure if he is a rogue Yadorat. I mean, if they at least had given him a bit of background or a dubious personality, we could speculate that. But he's just there for the sake of being there, filling a controversial role without any explanation. Maybe he always wanted to be a fighter and that's why he rebelled? Kinda makes sense. Of course, nothing about it explain how he got to Universe 2, though.

And then there's still the Tsufurujin that we can't forget about, same boat.

[Matches Malone]

So he is too prideful to use it again but not to prideful to hold Goku’s hand if they have to go somewhere just flying won’t cut it? Come on! Saying he is never going to use it again for that reason makes no sense.

What I think he means is that he's not going to use it on a regular basis, as he doesn't want to be seen using another warrior's move. However, if there's an emergency where his family's in danger, or he absolutely needs to get to some fight, then he'll use it like he did here.

Goku said something similar in BOG, that he wasn't satisfied with SsjG because he couldn't reach it with his own power, and as a warrior he wasn't happy relying on the strength of others. He did it anyway though.

[YamiGoku]

I dont like Vegeta having learned "IT" just to use it one time and say he wont use it again, I think this was not the best way to handle this, I think having vegeta acknowledge his not thrilled to use it, but that he will when, and only when it's necessary, would be a more genuine way to express Vegeta discomfort without him reverting to the old tropes, it's like they want Vegeta to grow but to stay the same at the same time.

Vegeta in Super is all about he doing everything to protect his home and family, yes he still is Goku's rival and he still wants to surpass him, but to having he say he wont use something this powerful that he has at his disposal, when he even threw away his pride to protect the Earth at the start of the series, is either a lie to have the good and old tsundere Vegeta, or an asinine decision to mantain the status quo.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Beerus is just an asshole whose lack of foresight is the reason we're in this mess as it is. You'd think Beerus would care that their quality of life is pretty damn low and that Goku and his friends dying and allowing a planet eating lunatic run around would be a bit concerning but...its Beerus. Shouldn't expect him to be competent.

Hell, Beerus is only competent when he's literally PUSHED into the situation, and even then, he just does the bare minimum and expects Goku and Vegeta to do the rest as they bust their asses off to fight. It would take someone having to be an actual threat to him and his existence for Beerus to get off his ass and say 'Alright, that's far enough.'

Makes sense. I can't say I'm surprised at Beerus' approach, but I was hoping for more after the ToP. For some reason, I thought coming out on top might've allowed Beerus to bond with them a bit more. When it comes to the quality of life stuff, it made me think back to what Beerus said when everyone was on Namek. He said he hardly has to lift a finger in U7 since a planet-buster will often show up and do it for him. So taking what Beerus said into consideration, is a guy like Moro actually beneficial to Beerus? Or is this simply a Beerus being lazy and ignorant?

[TheSaiyanGod]

I honestly think I would rather have Vegeta not learn IT at all. Even saying he won’t use it again because it’s a Goku move is dumb.

How is it dumb ? it's completely in character for him not to. Why not go a step further and say he should go to King Kai and ask to learn Kaioken and the spirit bomb ? exactly, because it'd be out of character.

So he is too prideful to use it again but not to prideful to hold Goku’s hand if they have to go somewhere just flying won’t cut it? Come on!

Saying he is never going to use it again for that reason makes no sense.

I think you missed the point of my post.

Vegeta saying that he will no longer use IT is just his pride speaking (just as he said he would not trust special techniques or that he had regretted going to Yardrat), that does not mean that he will never use it again. According to the summary, Pybara was willing to break the rules to take Vegeta to Earth, however Toyo made Vegeta learn by himself, if he didn't want Vegeta to use IT, he wouldn't even have done that.

In fact, his ability to use IT is even greater than Goku, since after training he can feel energies on the other side of the galaxy, so he can go to places much more distant than Goku

[Lionel]

I have to sign onto the consensus about not liking the idea of Vegeta having and using Instant Transmission. It's a premiere ability of the Yardratians with useful applications and it's only logical that it be passed down to a student. However, I still prefer Goku and Vegeta retain their differences from a thematic and technical point of view. We saw how much utility Goku reaped from the Mafuba technique back in the Future Trunks arc -- i.e a fat lot of good. Plus, that ability isn't even used by anyone except for anime Roshi despite its amazing potential.

[Kagari]

Vegeta using teleport just once feels like forced fanservice to an extreme. It's absolutely unnecessary and only there to check off that he did it. Nonsensical story telling to make Vegeta look good, it's the type of drivel you see in those trashy fanfics that have Vegeta go Super Saiyan on Namek first.

[MechaTrunks]

Agreed. Although to be honest, even if Vegeta does, indeed, go forth with something that will rival Ultra Instinct, we lack a necessary background to it. What I mean is: we have been having this huge build-up to Ultra Instinct, as the pinnacle of power, that anything else should not even remotely approach it in technique/strength/ability etc.

Having Vegeta go through Yadratian training (the same training nearly that Goku did back when Super Saiyan was considered a major thing) and attaining something special that won't be disregarded after Moro, sounds unlikely.

I don't agree with this.
Firstly, Vegeta being above UI Omen Goku doesn't make him comparable to UI Goku.
Secondly, the Yadrat training revolving around the "spirit" mastering is the basis for most Power ups in dragon ball, and it was what always put Goku above Vegeta in Z.
Z was much stronger than Goku at the same phase, but Goku was always one step ahead thanks to him being much better mastering his ki.

Now with Goku getting the UI which is a concept that revolves around a higher precision in one's movements instead it's only logical that Vegeta's handicap unitl now (because even in Super, Goku was always one step ahead) is now his specialty (thanks to a much bigger/better training in Yadrat than Goku had -Goku spent a lot of time travelling-healing, he even admitted that to Trunks-).
So Vegeta will be more powerful through mastering of Ki and Goku will evolve through mastering of movements/technique.

Boths concepts have been introduced and focal to the series for a long time (mastering of Ki was focal during most of Z).

Vegeta using teleport just once feels like forced fanservice to an extreme. It's absolutely unnecessary and only there to check off that he did it. Nonsensical story telling to make Vegeta look good, it's the type of drivel you see in those trashy fanfics that have Vegeta go Super Saiyan on Namek first.

What? Teleport is the technique that Goku learned from Yadrat, why shouldn't Vegeta be able to do it now that he has a much higher degree of Ki/Spirit control than Goku has ever had?
The difference between this and the fanfic you describe is that this actually makes sense in the context of the series.
Was Vegeta reaching SSJ fanservice in the androids saga? I would say that it was even more fanservicey than this, but Toriyama explained pretty well how he reached that.
Were Goten and Trunks being SSJ as kids fanservice? Yes and no, because Toriyama (again) was coherent with the logic he had used in DB when writting those scenarios.

This is coherent, so even if you think it feels fanservice, it's not comparable to the bad fanservice you're referring to.

Regards!

[Grand Marshal 1]

Agreed. Although to be honest, even if Vegeta does, indeed, go forth with something that will rival Ultra Instinct, we lack a necessary background to it. What I mean is: we have been having this huge build-up to Ultra Instinct, as the pinnacle of power, that anything else should not even remotely approach it in technique/strength/ability etc.

Having Vegeta go through Yadratian training (the same training nearly that Goku did back when Super Saiyan was considered a major thing) and attaining something special that won't be disregarded after Moro, sounds unlikely.

I don't agree with this.
Firstly, Vegeta being above UI Omen Goku doesn't make him comparable to UI Goku.
Secondly, the Yadrat training revolving around the "spirit" mastering is the basis for most Power ups in dragon ball, and it was what always put Goku above Vegeta in Z.
Z was much stronger than Goku at the same phase, but Goku was always one step ahead thanks to him being much better mastering his ki.

Now with Goku getting the UI which is a concept that revolves around a higher precision in one's movements instead it's only logical that Vegeta's handicap unitl now (because even in Super, Goku was always one step ahead) is now his specialty (thanks to a much bigger/better training in Yadrat than Goku had -Goku spent a lot of time travelling-healing, he even admitted that to Trunks-).
So Vegeta will be more powerful through mastering of Ki and Goku will evolve through mastering of movements/technique.

Boths concepts have been introduced and focal to the series for a long time (mastering of Ki was focal during most of Z).

Spirit has just been revealed to be a thing with minor references to the past (as in Z). What Vegeta learns will improve him as a fighter, but let's not forget his motivation for training on Yardrat in the first place.

Fina a way to defeat Moro. Granted, this new move/power may not compare him to Ultra Instinct, yet as an impact on the enemy it pretty much does. If this new thing defeats Moro, then Ultra Instinct was not the answer against him, despite being the pinnacle of power.


Mastering your Ki is something that Whis tried to teach the Saiyan. Spirit was an entire new world TO Vegeta. So I still believe that Vegeta will get some things for this Arc and this Arc only.

Hopefully he does maintain several abilities and his spirit mastery, but since this was all meant to be used against Moro, it will probably become obsolete, unlike Ultra Instinct, which again is what Goku is aiming for right now, since it was introduced.

The spirit came for this Arc and will probably not play a big role again.

[MechaTrunks]

Spirit has just been revealed to be a thing with minor references to the past (as in Z). What Vegeta learns will improve him as a fighter, but let's not forget his motivation for training on Yardrat in the first place.

Fina a way to defeat Moro. Granted, this new move/power may not compare him to Ultra Instinct, yet as an impact on the enemy it pretty much does. If this new thing defeats Moro, then Ultra Instinct was not the answer against him, despite being the pinnacle of power.


Mastering your Ki is something that Whis tried to teach the Saiyan. Spirit was an entire new world TO Vegeta. So I still believe that Vegeta will get some things for this Arc and this Arc only.

Hopefully he does maintain several abilities and his spirit mastery, but since this was all meant to be used against Moro, it will probably become obsolete, unlike Ultra Instinct, which again is what Goku is aiming for right now, since it was introduced.

The spirit came for this Arc and will probably not play a big role again.

Spirit is not a new concept from Super, since it ties with Ginyu's body change with Goku.
The mastering of one's own Ki comes from the balance between the body and the spirit as explained when Ginyu couldn't even use Goku's full 90.000 units of power, and we already saw that concept being used in Super to justify why Black was able to reach the God forms without any ritual and just through Zenkays (his spirit was Zamatsu's which was a godly being, and with each zenkay power spirit and body became more and more in sync allowing Black to grow stronger).

So in reality it's not a new concept, it's something that wasn't fully explored and that Toyotarou has decided to expand to allow Vegeta an alternative way of getting stronger.

And even if Vegeta just wanted a technique to beat Moro, what he found after arriving at Yadrat was not simply "techniques" but a new concept of training.
Whis mastering of Ki was centered on the mastering of one's movements (making more precise movements), we never see Whis training Goku nor Vegeta in the same way the Yadrats are training him.

And as it's obvious, the UI isn't less of a definitive technique because Goku is clearly not mastering it fully. I don't see a problem in UI Goku > post-Yadrat Vegeta > UIOmen Goku.
And since we know that Vegeta may be able to use healing abilities now (an advanced technique from the spirit training in Yadrat) maybe we still get to see Goku getting a second chance.

We know Goku can reach higher, that he doesn't achive it in the next saga is a plus for me. It will allow for Vegta and him to be neck in neck for a while (at least until the next big bad guy is defeated).

I don't think Vegeta's techniques will become obsolete. Of course, there will be a point where they will be surpassed with brute strenght like we saw when Goku couldn't even defeat Jiren with his instant transmision.
But if Toyotarou writes it well spirit can continue to evolve to help Vegeta not fall much behind Goku. It's still early to criticize Toyotarou for things that are that far ahead and may not even happen.

Regards!