"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Matches Malone]

Fuck, if that happens, that would kill the arc for me.

Same here. This would be the Zamasu arc all over again where you've got a great villain and overall good progress, only for everything to fall apart at the end.

[Mister_Popo]

As excited as I am for whatever he has up his sleeve, Super does have a tendency of building things up only for them to fall on their face in favor of "subverting expectations". I think Vegeta's role and the ending will either be extremely good and blow us away, or so bad we try to forget this arc ever existed.

Average expectation: Vegeta arrives and use his super new move/strategy to win. You'll see this in Toei's Dragonball a lot.

Learned expectation: Vegeta arrives and fails because this is how Toriyama writes. Subversively.

I'm guessing Vegeta either fails, or semi-succeeds and then Goku does his thing.

Oh man, I don't think a lot of fans would like that.

If the arc lasts until December, i don't see Goku hanging in the ropes until then to be honest with you.
Vegeta would like to beat Moro alone, but if it does not work, and he has learned healing from the Yardratians, he should have every intrest in healing Goku and keep him involved in the battle.

Goku could also return in MSSB against a weaker opponent (maybe 7-3 or even Moro if Vegeta manages to weaken him).
But it's too soon to conclude a return of Omen or even a sylver-haired-form is out of the picture.
If Vegeta manages to heal him, he should be able to return in his strongest form, which is at least Omen at the moment.

[Matches Malone]

People have unrealistic expectations either way. The amount of people I've seen hyping this up as a "Vegeta win" is only going to lead to a path of disappointment.

As people harp on RoF, it probably was the best chance for Vegeta to get a meaningful victory.

My expectations are for the 3 characters who've been built up to be able to handle Moro. Those 3 being Buu with his sealing ability, Vegeta with his new technique, and Goku with UI. Having Merus do all the work is the worst outcome possible.

Vegeta did get a victory in RF, not THE victory, but a victory. he did manage to beat Freeza down, he didn't kill him, but fans got what they wanted to see. If Vegeta can just beat Moro, while the overall victory is achieved another way, I'll be happy.

[Kagari]

People have unrealistic expectations either way. The amount of people I've seen hyping this up as a "Vegeta win" is only going to lead to a path of disappointment.

As people harp on RoF, it probably was the best chance for Vegeta to get a meaningful victory.

My expectations are for the 3 characters who've been built up to be able to handle Moro. Those 3 being Buu with his sealing ability, Vegeta with his new technique, and Goku with UI. Having Merus do all the work is the worst outcome possible.

Vegeta did get a victory in RF, not THE victory, but a victory. he did manage to beat Freeza down, he didn't kill him, but fans got what they wanted to see. If Vegeta can just beat Moro, while the overall victory is achieved another way, I'll be happy.

People wanted to see him kill Freeza, not just beat him down. There's a reason five years later people are still complaining about it.

[Matches Malone]

People wanted to see him kill Freeza, not just beat him down. There's a reason five years later people are still complaining about it.

Those people had unrealistic expectation, and still do. Vegeta was either going to win the battle and lose the kill, or lose the battle and get the kill. He was never going to get both, just as he's not going to get all the glory against Moro. Personally speaking, I'm happy with his battle with Freeza, as that was more impactful for me than him getting his ass kicked again in exchange for a cheap kill as compensation.

[emperior]

Vegeta has a lot of buildup behind him, and I'm expecting it to not pay off.

As excited as I am for whatever he has up his sleeve, Super does have a tendency of building things up only for them to fall on their face in favor of "subverting expectations". I think Vegeta's role and the ending will either be extremely good and blow us away, or so bad we try to forget this arc ever existed.

Average expectation: Vegeta arrives and use his super new move/strategy to win. You'll see this in Toei's Dragonball a lot.

Learned expectation: Vegeta arrives and fails because this is how Toriyama writes. Subversively.

I'm guessing Vegeta either fails, or semi-succeeds and then Goku does his thing.

Vegeta won’t fail, but he won’t succeed either. Probably 73 will be the reason why Vegeta will fail. But it won’t be Goku who will do something to solve the situation, but Merus, in my opinion.

[Grimlock]

Those people had unrealistic expectation, and still do.

No we don't. The deuteragonist of the franchise getting a major kill not on a random villain (Moro) but against Freeza, who is completely related to Vegeta not only is what should be expected, it would not cause any harm in the grand scheme of things. Contrary to popular belief, this franchise can perfectly survive without Goku for one or two seconds.

[The Undying]

While, what new lore stuff and world building did Moro arc really introduce?

The Dai Kaioshin's abilities/personality and how Boo inherited his powers, the infrastructure and some history of the Galactic Patrol, more information on the Angels, everything with Yardrat. The Zamasu arc primarily just expands on the Kaioshin (time rings, Potara limitations, assistant healing powers, etc.) but with Moro, you're getting a slew of things that aren't even related. No idea why people downplay it.

Goku tapping into UI at will isn't small potatoes at all. It's a big fucking deal, actually; this is a move that was built up as a major goalpost since the start of Super, and the only other non-Angel capable of doing it (albeit not consistently) is Beerus. It's been a focus from the start, there's far more weight here than "oh wow he learned Mafuba/Hakai and hasn't used them since".

Vegeta hasn't experienced this much character development since the original manga.

There's a lot of "status quo" stuff, but this is already too much for a filler arc in the traditional sense. This ain't Potaufeu 2.0.

Oh man, I don't think a lot of fans would like that.

The fans can cry me a river.

[Matches Malone]

No we don't. Contrary to popular belief, this franchise can perfectly survive without Goku for one or two seconds.

The franchise won't let Goku do everything, much less Vegeta or someone else. I'm not saying Vegeta doing everything would be bad, just that the franchise isn't going in the direction of having one character take over the climax. Goku beat Jiren without much effort, but still needed help knocking him out of the ring ? Did that take anything away from Goku's fight beforehand ? no, just as it shouldn't have when Vegeta beat Freeza but couldn't kill him.

[Grimlock]

And what is there to take away from "Vegeta's fight" anyway? Vegeta merely "beat down" an already tired and much weaker Freeza. He just landed a few punches and a kick and Freeza quickly reverted to base form. Goku ate the whole pizza and let one tiny slice for Vegeta, and even then, Vegeta didn't finish his tiny slice, it seemed he wasn't hungry or something.

[Matches Malone]

Vegeta merely "beat down" an already tired and much weaker Freeza.

He just landed a few punches and a kick and Freeza quickly reverted to base form.

As if Freeza didn't do the same to him back on Namek. What goes around comes around, and Vegeta gave Freeza a taste of his medicine.

I agree with this, Toei completely screwed up his fight in the movie, but thankfully made up for it in Super. If it wasn't satisfying seeing Vegeta punch Freeza's face in as they got to the ground, then I don't know what it.

[Mister_Popo]

No we don't. Contrary to popular belief, this franchise can perfectly survive without Goku for one or two seconds.

The franchise won't let Goku do everything, much less Vegeta or someone else. I'm not saying Vegeta doing everything would be bad, just that the franchise isn't going in the direction of having one character take over the climax. Goku beat Jiren without much effort, but still needed help knocking him out of the ring ? Did that take anything away from Goku's fight beforehand ? no, just as it shouldn't have when Vegeta beat Freeza but couldn't kill him.

The irony of it all is, when considering a straight, clean win for Vegeta, since they defeated Buu they didn't actually manage to pull it off once during the run of Super.
Nor Vegeta alone, nor Goku alone, nor together. Not a single clean one.

Against Broly they came closest, before he was wished back to Vampa.
So technically speaking, even though they were defeating Broly, they didn't actually defeat him.
It seems a trend lingering through all of Super. Because in the other arcs, they always received help or goodwill from other characters, deus ex machina and divine intervenances, in order to ensure 'victory'.

I wonder whether they'll derail from that procedure on this occasion and actually give one or both of the main protagonists a straight-in-the-net-score. I doubt it, if Vegeta will get the clean one, but he would surprise me if he did.

[Matches Malone]

Maybe from that perspective it would even be unexpected if Vegeta effectively gets the win.

It would be very unexpected, but considering they're keeping both 7-3 and Merus in the background, it's not going to happen. It seems like the writers liked the Saiyan and Buu arcs conclusions of everyone having to work together to take down the villain, as that's the norm now. I like them as well, but what made that kind of ending stand out was the fact it only happened twice, it wasn't the norm. At this point, I'm honestly tired of something going wrong at the end, just let whoever is fighting get a clean win for once.

[Mister_Popo]

Maybe from that perspective it would even be unexpected if Vegeta effectively gets the win.

It would be very unexpected, but considering they're keeping both 7-3 and Merus in the background, it's not going to happen. It seems like the writers liked the Saiyan and Buu arcs conclusions of everyone having to work together to take down the villain, as that's the norm now. I like them as well, but what made that kind of ending stand out was the fact it only happened twice, it wasn't the norm. At this point, I'm honestly tired of something going wrong at the end, just let whoever is fighting get a clean win for once.

All right, Fat Buu helped at the end of the Buu arc, but i still call that a pretty straight-forward victory in comparison to every conclusion during Super.

[Koitsukai]

No we don't. Contrary to popular belief, this franchise can perfectly survive without Goku for one or two seconds.

The franchise won't let Goku do everything, much less Vegeta or someone else. I'm not saying Vegeta doing everything would be bad, just that the franchise isn't going in the direction of having one character take over the climax. Goku beat Jiren without much effort, but still needed help knocking him out of the ring ? Did that take anything away from Goku's fight beforehand ? no, just as it shouldn't have when Vegeta beat Freeza but couldn't kill him.

The irony of it all is, when considering a straight, clean win for Vegeta, since they defeated Buu they didn't actually manage to pull it off once during the run of Super.
Nor Vegeta alone, nor Goku alone, nor together. Not a single clean one.

Against Broly they came closest, before he was wished back to Vampa.
So technically speaking, even though they were defeating Broly, they didn't actually defeat him.
It seems a trend lingering through all of Super. Because in the other arcs, they always received help or goodwill from other characters, deus ex machina and divine intervenances, in order to ensure 'victory'.

I wonder whether they'll derail from that procedure on this occasion and actually give one or both of the main protagonists a straight-in-the-net-score. I doubt it, if Vegeta will get the clean one, but he would surprise me if he did.

I think you are forgetting the U6 arc. In the manga, Goku defeats Hit fair and square after having the edge for most of the fight, he forfits the fight out of pride. But yeah, god forms on their own aren't enough in this new world they are in now.

Like others have stated, this arc really has a lot of stuff going on:
-Jaco
-Merus the angel
-Whis making a deal with GP
-Buu
-Daikaioshin
-a hint to Uub having god ki
-flashback from millions of years ago
-Moro
-Saganbo
-7-3
-galactic prison
-galactic patrol
-galactic prisoners
-Freeza's former lackeys
-Omen
-Goku training to get UI
-SSBE
-spirit control
-Yadrat
-Earth
-Namek
-the saviour of Namek that got fisted by Moro
-Porunga
-the old gang (Roshi)
-the new gang (androids)

And people are theorizing about more stuff to come like Beerus, fusions, Earth DBs, the teamwork of UI and spirit control, Merus saving the day, Buu saving the day... It's really a lot of stuff to expect one character to get the win.

[Mister_Popo]

I think you are forgetting the U6 arc. In the manga, Goku defeats Hit fair and square after having the edge for most of the fight, he forfits the fight out of pride. But yeah, god forms on their own aren't enough in this new world they are in now.

Goku knew Hit basically could not go all out.
i didn't consider that exactly as a straight win either. The fight was interrupted, and eventually not won by Goku.

[Matches Malone]

All right, Fat Buu helped at the end of the Buu arc, but i still call that a pretty straight-forward victory.

It was Vegeta's idea to use the spirit bomb, bring back earth and its people to contribute their energy, and wish to restore Goku's power.
Dende, Kibito, and old Kai went to new Namek to summon the Dragon.
The dragon himself granting those very important wishes.
Vegeta and Fat Buu distracted Kid Buu multiple times in order for Goku to collect energy.
Mr. Satan to convinced everyone to give up their energy.
Goku charged and threw the spirit bomb.

That's anything but straight forward, as removing any one of the above parts would result in the entire plan falling apart.

[Mad Swami]

All right, Fat Buu helped at the end of the Buu arc, but i still call that a pretty straight-forward victory.

It was Vegeta's idea to use the spirit bomb, bring back earth and its people to contribute their energy, and wish to restore Goku's power.
Dende, Kibito, and old Kai went to new Namek to summon the Dragon.
The dragon himself granting those very important wishes.
Vegeta and Fat Buu distracted Kid Buu multiple times in order for Goku to collect energy.
Mr. Satan to convinced everyone to give up their energy.
Goku charged and threw the spirit bomb.

That's anything but straight forward, as removing any one of the above parts would result in the entire plan falling apart.

I always wished Kibito Kai had some form of fight with Kid Buu. He had to be around SSJ2 level power so I don't think it be far fetched for him to do something. Honestly it could have been cool if Kibito Kai had used some technique to freeze Kid Buu after Vegeta gets knocked away. Some sort of Guldo esc technique. However he can barley hold it or something. To be honest though his contribution is fine. I just wished we saw Kibito Kai in action

[Matches Malone]

I always wished Kibito Kai had some form of fight with Kid Buu. He had to be around SSJ2 level power so I don't think it be far fetched for him to do something. Honestly it could have been cool if Kibito Kai had used some technique to freeze Kid Buu after Vegeta gets knocked away. Some sort of Guldo esc technique. However he can barley hold it or something. To be honest though his contribution is fine. I just wished we saw Kibito Kai in action

Him taking part in the fight due to him blaming himself for the whole mess would've been a logical thing to do, but considering how rushed the manga was and how burned out Toriyama was, we're extremely lucky things turned out as good as they did. Thankfully the anime managed to pick up on the parts that Toriyama slacked off on and improve them, such as the fights.

[Mad Swami]

I always wished Kibito Kai had some form of fight with Kid Buu. He had to be around SSJ2 level power so I don't think it be far fetched for him to do something. Honestly it could have been cool if Kibito Kai had used some technique to freeze Kid Buu after Vegeta gets knocked away. Some sort of Guldo esc technique. However he can barley hold it or something. To be honest though his contribution is fine. I just wished we saw Kibito Kai in action

Him taking part in the fight due to him blaming himself for the whole mess would've been a logical thing to do, but considering how rushed the manga was and how burned out Toriyama was, we're extremely lucky things turned out as good as they did. Thankfully the anime managed to pick up on the parts that Toriyama slacked off on and improve them, such as the fights.

Thats fair