New games, old music?

[Rory]

Today, I was just playing some of the older Dragonball games, and while playing, I realised " Wow, these theme songs are amazing. "
From Piccolo's James Bond-esque (yet still awesome) theme, to Vegeta's slow, yet pretty damn epic tune, all the way to Hikari no Will power, no introduction nessicary.
Now, when I starting thinking about Burst Limit, (or any up coming Dragonball game), I asked myself, " Why doesn't Kenji bring back some of his older tunes? ".
Not that the new music doesn't ROCK, I'm a huge fan of the Budokai soundtracks, but, it'd be nice, even " fan service " I suppose, for a new variation on some of his older themes. Not ALL of them (though that'd be amazing), but maybe a few back, I don't see why not. Just imagine a new variation of Hikari no Will Power in a new Dragonball game.
What do you guys think about this? Not if it'll probably happen or not, just whether you think it'd be a good idea.

[VegettoEX]

There's been a distinct lack of hardcore-memorable songs, in my opinion, with all of the new stuff post-2000. A lot of it is probably very biased for me with the whimsical nature of my early fandom and games I was playing back then, but when you look at stuff like "Hikari no WILLPOWER" that got a fucking vocal version and various live performances, I'm just not seeing that same excitement this time around.

Beyond the actual vocal theme songs from the games, there are very few pieces of gaming BGM that really stick out in my head... and the couple of them that do happen to be the adaptations of Tower of Power songs from the later Budokai games.

I'd love to hear more references and homages to some of these older works from pre-1997, and like you said, some flat-out awesome new versions of them!

[Vegeta Jr]

Super Butoden/Final Bout remixes anyone? I would kill for that, here's a newish video that showcases a little bit of the new music (take note of the beginning part it then seems to linger in the background throughout the interview) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpKw55s8YU4

[Arcwave]

Super Butoden/Final Bout remixes anyone? I would kill for that, here's a newish video that showcases a little bit of the new music (take note of the beginning part it then seems to linger in the background throughout the interview) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpKw55s8YU4

Yuck... I cringed when I heard it. Although the game looks impressive. I'm looking forward to that multiplayer mode.

[cRookie_Monster]

Composers like to write new music ^^ It usually more fun to create something enirely new than to rehash the same old stuff.

Sometimes its actually easier doing new tunes if you don't play stuff live lol. To do an old tune you actually have to go back and remember what you did!

[caejones]

Composers like to write new music ^^ It usually more fun to create something enirely new than to rehash the same old stuff.

Sometimes its actually easier doing new tunes if you don't play stuff live lol. To do an old tune you actually have to go back and remember what you did!

That's true. (I find that catchy memorable melodies tend to help, though. ).
Actually, I think I've noticed that lately, across the board (with the exception of the obvious like John Williams), recognizable melodies and stuffseem to be getting less common in major films/games/Etc... though this isn't too different from like, the generic forgettable music that Kunzait's talked about before; generic orchestral droning has become pretty popular (from what I can tell, anyway) in movies and such, and I think that's sort of how we wound up with Mark Menza's stuff for the later dub releases.
But eh, not like I am a hardcore gamer/film-goer, so maybe I'm wrong... but I've noticed the over-generic orchestration thing a lot lately, especially in movies. *meh*.

[VegettoEX]

Regarding "memorable" tunes, and this is something I meant to note but didn't, a lot of it has to do with the available technology and the "need" to make it memorable.

For example, the NES didn't exactly have the most advanced sound architecture in the world. If those sound engineers and composers were going to make something worthwhile, it needed to have something "more" to it. It needed to have some kind of catch... some kind of shtick. Bring in people like Koji Kondo and Nobuo Uematsu, and suddenly you're unlocking the potential of these crap pieces of hardware by creating these amazingly deep and memorable tunes.

The main themes/preludes from the original Super Mario Bros., The Legend of Zelda, and Final Fantasy continue to be the shining examples of this.

So is it that today's composers simply have to try "less hard" to create something "acceptable"? What about the old composers? Are they burnt out? Some would say that Uematsu's finest work was FFVI in 1994, and some would say that the last great stand-out Zelda tune Kondo's done was the Gerudo Valley tune from Ocarina in 1998 (not that I necessarily agree with either of those assertions, but they are quite prevalent in the gaming community).

So what about Yamamoto? Was the limited technology of the past systems a factor in being forced to create memorable tunes? Was is the fact that they got away with inserting homages all over the place that helped bring some familiarity and thus bias?

[cRookie_Monster]

Regarding "memorable" tunes, and this is something I meant to note but didn't, a lot of it has to do with the available technology and the "need" to make it memorable.

For example, the NES didn't exactly have the most advanced sound architecture in the world. If those sound engineers and composers were going to make something worthwhile, it needed to have something "more" to it. It needed to have some kind of catch... some kind of shtick. Bring in people like Koji Kondo and Nobuo Uematsu, and suddenly you're unlocking the potential of these crap pieces of hardware by creating these amazingly deep and memorable tunes.

The main themes/preludes from the original Super Mario Bros., The Legend of Zelda, and Final Fantasy continue to be the shining examples of this.

So is it that today's composers simply have to try "less hard" to create something "acceptable"? What about the old composers? Are they burnt out? Some would say that Uematsu's finest work was FFVI in 1994, and some would say that the last great stand-out Zelda tune Kondo's done was the Gerudo Valley tune from Ocarina in 1998 (not that I necessarily agree with either of those assertions, but they are quite prevalent in the gaming community).

So what about Yamamoto? Was the limited technology of the past systems a factor in being forced to create memorable tunes? Was is the fact that they got away with inserting homages all over the place that helped bring some familiarity and thus bias?

Great observation man. I actually started a thread on this very subject a few years ago on the forums over at www.audiogang.org.

With the new technologies you can literally get a great sound by simply buying a really expensive orchestra sample set and play one long note on the low strings. Then add a simple tympani beat or something. A monkey could do it.

There is NO way you could get away with that kind lame pad music back in the day. They HAD to write active melodies because simply sustaining a note was only going to remind you how bad the synth was.

So my point was that even though game composers can make great quality recordings...we still shouldn't disregard melody.

Unfortunately there's another side of it, and that's the repetition factor. It's been often discussed how strong melody does not bear repetition very well. So lately a lot of game music is watered down in an attempt to be generic enough to not be annoying on the 1000th play. So that kinda of thing also kills melody in modern games.

[Onikage725]

I'll be damned if I can remember specifically, but one of the tunes in Budokai 2 or 3 sounded like a remix of one of the old Super Butouden tunes.

[caejones]

That reminds me... was Mr. Satan's theme from UB22 / Budokai1 based on anything from the anime? Hmm...

Unfortunately there's another side of it, and that's the repetition factor. It's been often discussed how strong melody does not bear repetition very well.
So lately a lot of game music is watered down in an attempt to be generic enough to not be annoying on the 1000th play. So that kinda of thing also kills melody in modern games.

I remember at one point googling something Ultimate Battle 22-related, and seeing in just the descriptions in the search results a lot of complaints about the music... (music that I like enough that in 2001 I recorded several tracks off of the TV... and have that cassette sitting in a drawer a few feet from me at this moment...).
Though, I think usually Video game music that's repetative doesn't vary in volume or tempo all that much... Which kinda makes sense for things like fighting games (Though I definitely need to throw dynamics into what might be the most annoying thing I've ever written... ).

Hmm. Maybe it largely comes down to the purpose of music in things? In a game, each track typically serves one purpose and sets one mood... so it's easier to just get something that fits the atmosphere and repeats well instead of making something melodic and memorable. I'd venture that one of the reasons stronger melodies and such worked in Mario (hmm, probably the same applies to Sonic, too) is because the stages for which the music plays move around about as much as the music? Whereas it's harder to tell with fights, or free roaming RPG-style places (incidentally, the RPGs I've encountered like the memorable music thing...).
And how that applies to Dragonball? Umm... well, how many fighting games do we have? o.o...
(Actually, a lo of times with PS and PS2 games I turn the music down... not off, in most cases, because usuall it's something I want to hear... but yeah... it can be rather distracting in Marvel Vs Capcom, Budokai Tenkaichi, and 'Sagas'. Never bothered me in any of the DBZ games before those two, I think...).

[JohnnyBoy_Z]

I think the only chance we have of this happening is if a sequel were to made for one of the older series' or games, i.e. Butouden series. And I think it's safe to say that it's highly doubtful this will ever happen. But still, it would be much nicer to hear remixed/arranged versions of some old scores in some of the newer games. I can't stand all this new Rock crap.