Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 22 - DB episode 96-100

[Robo4900]

Another big factor is that if you're going to watch GT, you have to watch Z. Kai removes some anime-only material that GT follows up on in major ways, so you'd be lost if you watched Kai. But the English dub of Z is pretty bad.

I've never heard of this! Nor did I pick up any from watching about half of the show. What no longer works??

Major spoilers for GT:

Spoiler:

1. The Tsufruians are an anime invention, and not one that was carried over into Kai, to my knowledge, so Baby's origins are completely out of nowhere if you come into it from Kai. Meanwhile, if you come into it from Z, it's a callback to an established part of Saiyan history that's been referred to a few times. (Similarly, the callback of the Golden Oozaru being a thing is rendered nil if you didn't watch Z)
2. A key plot point in the Baby arc involves the purifying water mist (or whatever it was called; I haven't seen the Garlic Jr arc in a while), which is a total asspull if you haven't seen Z. If you have seen Z, then it's a payoff that makes the Garlic Jr arc feel like less of a waste of time.
3. The original anime run was inconsistent about this, but it usually depicted the stronger dead souls as staying in the afterlife with some kind of body, even those who go to hell, which is counter to how the manga does things. We see this in the afterlife tournament arc, in the Boo arc filler (though TFC kept this in, which is inconistent with how Kai handled things), and a few other points, and the Super #17 arc follows on from this.

I also seem to recall that when Elder Kaioshin tells Goku not to make a wish on the Dragon Balls because it would "disrupt the natural order", that was an anime addition... Though I'm not completely sure?... In any case, if it was, then that's another anime-only setup GT paid off.

Also, remember to watch the TV specials!

JUST NOT THE DUB, they're awful and have no Kai equivalent!

Though, in a pinch, I hear there's a pretty good fandub of the first Z TV special.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Another big factor is that if you're going to watch GT, you have to watch Z. Kai removes some anime-only material that GT follows up on in major ways, so you'd be lost if you watched Kai. But the English dub of Z is pretty bad.

I've never heard of this! Nor did I pick up any from watching about half of the show. What no longer works??

Major spoilers for GT:

Spoiler:

1. The Tsufruians are an anime invention, and not one that was carried over into Kai, to my knowledge, so Baby's origins are completely out of nowhere if you come into it from Kai. Meanwhile, if you come into it from Z, it's a callback to an established part of Saiyan history that's been referred to a few times. (Similarly, the callback of the Golden Oozaru being a thing is rendered nil if you didn't watch Z)
2. A key plot point in the Baby arc involves the purifying water mist (or whatever it was called; I haven't seen the Garlic Jr arc in a while), which is a total asspull if you haven't seen Z. If you have seen Z, then it's a payoff that makes the Garlic Jr arc feel like less of a waste of time.
3. The original anime run was inconsistent about this, but it usually depicted the stronger dead souls as staying in the afterlife with some kind of body, even those who go to hell, which is counter to how the manga does things. We see this in the afterlife tournament arc, in the Boo arc filler (though TFC kept this in, which is inconistent with how Kai handled things), and a few other points, and the Super #17 arc follows on from this.

Also, remember to watch the TV specials!

JUST NOT THE DUB, they're awful and have no Kai equivalent!

Though, in a pinch, I hear there's a pretty good fandub of the first Z TV special.

Indeed, the Z special's dubs are both horrendous pieces of crap and much like Sleeping Princess i watch them exclusively subbed in Japanese because they're that bad. These aforementioned dubs in particular reflect the wholesale disconnect and reversioning practices of FUNi's early years in dubbing in house, and by far the ones most in need of a re do.

[ArmenianPepsi]

I've never heard of this! Nor did I pick up any from watching about half of the show. What no longer works??

Major spoilers for GT:

Spoiler:

1. The Tsufruians are an anime invention, and not one that was carried over into Kai, to my knowledge, so Baby's origins are completely out of nowhere if you come into it from Kai. Meanwhile, if you come into it from Z, it's a callback to an established part of Saiyan history that's been referred to a few times. (Similarly, the callback of the Golden Oozaru being a thing is rendered nil if you didn't watch Z)
2. A key plot point in the Baby arc involves the purifying water mist (or whatever it was called; I haven't seen the Garlic Jr arc in a while), which is a total asspull if you haven't seen Z. If you have seen Z, then it's a payoff that makes the Garlic Jr arc feel like less of a waste of time.
3. The original anime run was inconsistent about this, but it usually depicted the stronger dead souls as staying in the afterlife with some kind of body, even those who go to hell, which is counter to how the manga does things. We see this in the afterlife tournament arc, in the Boo arc filler (though TFC kept this in, which is inconistent with how Kai handled things), and a few other points, and the Super #17 arc follows on from this.

JUST NOT THE DUB, they're awful and have no Kai equivalent!

Though, in a pinch, I hear there's a pretty good fandub of the first Z TV special.

Indeed, the Z special's dubs are both horrendous pieces of crap and much like Sleeping Princess i watch them exclusively subbed in Japanese because they're that bad. These aforementioned dubs in particular reflect the wholesale disconnect and reversioning practices of FUNi's early years in dubbing in house, and by far the ones most in need of a re do.

Oh jeez are they really that bad? Are we talking 4Kids One Piece territory?

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Major spoilers for GT:

Spoiler:

1. The Tsufruians are an anime invention, and not one that was carried over into Kai, to my knowledge, so Baby's origins are completely out of nowhere if you come into it from Kai. Meanwhile, if you come into it from Z, it's a callback to an established part of Saiyan history that's been referred to a few times. (Similarly, the callback of the Golden Oozaru being a thing is rendered nil if you didn't watch Z)
2. A key plot point in the Baby arc involves the purifying water mist (or whatever it was called; I haven't seen the Garlic Jr arc in a while), which is a total asspull if you haven't seen Z. If you have seen Z, then it's a payoff that makes the Garlic Jr arc feel like less of a waste of time.
3. The original anime run was inconsistent about this, but it usually depicted the stronger dead souls as staying in the afterlife with some kind of body, even those who go to hell, which is counter to how the manga does things. We see this in the afterlife tournament arc, in the Boo arc filler (though TFC kept this in, which is inconistent with how Kai handled things), and a few other points, and the Super #17 arc follows on from this.

Though, in a pinch, I hear there's a pretty good fandub of the first Z TV special.

Indeed, the Z special's dubs are both horrendous pieces of crap and much like Sleeping Princess i watch them exclusively subbed in Japanese because they're that bad. These aforementioned dubs in particular reflect the wholesale disconnect and reversioning practices of FUNi's early years in dubbing in house, and by far the ones most in need of a re do.

Oh jeez are they really that bad? Are we talking 4Kids One Piece territory?

Well i've watched both dubs before and can surely say without any doubt they are somewhere around DBZ Season 3 in terms of the badness level, so much so that i went subbed exclusively on all subsequent viewings. Seriously, the voice work reminds me of those early years where the cast was at their most amature and inexperienced and it blows my mind that FUNi still considers these and Sleeping Princess's dub acceptable to release especially now, because this reflects poorly especially given how far they've come in 20+ years.

[KBABZ]

Major spoilers for GT:

Spoiler:

1. The Tsufruians are an anime invention, and not one that was carried over into Kai, to my knowledge, so Baby's origins are completely out of nowhere if you come into it from Kai. Meanwhile, if you come into it from Z, it's a callback to an established part of Saiyan history that's been referred to a few times. (Similarly, the callback of the Golden Oozaru being a thing is rendered nil if you didn't watch Z)
2. A key plot point in the Baby arc involves the purifying water mist (or whatever it was called; I haven't seen the Garlic Jr arc in a while), which is a total asspull if you haven't seen Z. If you have seen Z, then it's a payoff that makes the Garlic Jr arc feel like less of a waste of time.
3. The original anime run was inconsistent about this, but it usually depicted the stronger dead souls as staying in the afterlife with some kind of body, even those who go to hell, which is counter to how the manga does things. We see this in the afterlife tournament arc, in the Boo arc filler (though TFC kept this in, which is inconistent with how Kai handled things), and a few other points, and the Super #17 arc follows on from this.

I also seem to recall that when Elder Kaioshin tells Goku not to make a wish on the Dragon Balls because it would "disrupt the natural order", that was an anime addition... Though I'm not completely sure?... In any case, if it was, then that's another anime-only setup GT paid off.

Spoiler:

Point 1: It does come a bit out of nowhere, but we've always had a very limited and thinly-informed view on the Saiyans regardless so I felt it worked fairly well in what it needed to be, which is providing a backstory to Baby that is from the shadows of the Saiyans' past. Which ultimately turns into an excuse motive for Baby anyway.

Point 2: We have had this before as well on Korin's tower where he happens to have access to the water that will let Goku have the power to defeat Daimao. He does have to earn it in the anime compared to the manga, but it's still there nonetheless. Gods having a bit of an asspull is a common trope in media, and having purifying waters cure the infected is an appropriately Biblical act from the place where God resides, so it works for me.

Point 3: Having watched Kai's dub, while this point isn't made, it also doesn't say anything to claim it DOESN'T happen either.

Point 4: This is retained in TFC's dub as well, although almost certainly as an effect of retaining much of the original Buu arc's anime content.

[MyVisionity]

Major spoilers for GT:

Spoiler:

1. The Tsufruians are an anime invention, and not one that was carried over into Kai, to my knowledge, so Baby's origins are completely out of nowhere if you come into it from Kai. Meanwhile, if you come into it from Z, it's a callback to an established part of Saiyan history that's been referred to a few times. (Similarly, the callback of the Golden Oozaru being a thing is rendered nil if you didn't watch Z)
2. A key plot point in the Baby arc involves the purifying water mist (or whatever it was called; I haven't seen the Garlic Jr arc in a while), which is a total asspull if you haven't seen Z. If you have seen Z, then it's a payoff that makes the Garlic Jr arc feel like less of a waste of time.
3. The original anime run was inconsistent about this, but it usually depicted the stronger dead souls as staying in the afterlife with some kind of body, even those who go to hell, which is counter to how the manga does things. We see this in the afterlife tournament arc, in the Boo arc filler (though TFC kept this in, which is inconistent with how Kai handled things), and a few other points, and the Super #17 arc follows on from this.

I also seem to recall that when Elder Kaioshin tells Goku not to make a wish on the Dragon Balls because it would "disrupt the natural order", that was an anime addition... Though I'm not completely sure?... In any case, if it was, then that's another anime-only setup GT paid off.

Spoiler:

The water used in the Baby saga and Garlic Junior saga is the choushinsui or "Super God Water", which was also the name of the water that Goku drank at Karin Tower to defeat Piccolo Daimao. Obviously the water's purpose changes, but it does at least have some precedent in canon material.

[Robo4900]

Gonna watch some (maybe all?) of this weeks episodes a little later today. Will drop some thoughts here when I'm watching.

'Till then... GT talk:

Spoiler:

Point 1: It does come a bit out of nowhere, but we've always had a very limited and thinly-informed view on the Saiyans regardless so I felt it worked fairly well in what it needed to be, which is providing a backstory to Baby that is from the shadows of the Saiyans' past. Which ultimately turns into an excuse motive for Baby anyway.

IDK. The point is it's supposed to build off stuff we already know from filler, so it's not explained great in the show, so it comes off weird to watch it without knowing.

Point 2: We have had this before as well on Korin's tower where he happens to have access to the water that will let Goku have the power to defeat Daimao. He does have to earn it in the anime compared to the manga, but it's still there nonetheless. Gods having a bit of an asspull is a common trope in media, and having purifying waters cure the infected is an appropriately Biblical act from the place where God resides, so it works for me.

No no no, Karin's water and the purification water are entirely unrelated.

The water used in the Baby saga and Garlic Junior saga is the choushinsui or "Super God Water", which was also the name of the water that Goku drank at Karin Tower to defeat Piccolo Daimao. Obviously the water's purpose changes, but it does at least have some precedent in canon material.

Honestly, I didn't know they have the same name... But the thing is, they're used entirely differently, and presented as entirely unrelated substances with entirely different usage and effects. In the Piccolo arc, it gives Goku strength, but in the Garlic Jr arc, it counteracts Garlic Jr's evil dark mist.

Point 3: Having watched Kai's dub, while this point isn't made, it also doesn't say anything to claim it DOESN'T happen either.

Except it does. This happens in the original anime too, but is heavily contradicted at various points before and after, so it's hard to take seriously, but at one point, Vegeta asks Piccolo if he'll see Goku in the afterlife, and Piccolo says something to the effect of "No. You won't get to keep your body, and your soul will go to hell where it will be cleansed and reincarnated." So Freeza, Cell, General Blue, et al. still being in hell, uncleansed, with their bodies intact, makes no sense. Though admittedly, the fact Toei left the scenes of the guys in hell watching the fight with kid Boo somewhat muddies this, as do the scenes in Super and ResF of Freeza in his personal hell.

[Robo4900]

To be honest, I thought Goku vs Kuririn dragged a little in episode 96. But overall, episodes 96 and 97 are quite enjoyable.

We're getting into the big stuff now, though. Tenshinhan vs Goku... This is what we've been building to!

[Matches Malone]

We're getting into the big stuff now, though. Tenshinhan vs Goku... This is what we've been building to!

Tien's change before and during the fight was a major highlight in this arc, it shows that a tournament doesn't just have to be endless fights, it can have character development and great character moments.

[Robo4900]

We're getting into the big stuff now, though. Tenshinhan vs Goku... This is what we've been building to!

Tien's change before and during the fight was a major highlight in this arc, it shows that a tournament doesn't just have to be endless fights, it can have character development and great character moments.

Yep.

Not only can it be more, but it should be more. It's all well and good to play with a fun premise that generates exciting action sequences, but if there's no solid emotional core, and/or no real themes or character arcs to delve into, you have a pretty shallow experience.
Infinity War isn't a great movie because of its action sequences, it's because all the characters have strong emotional arcs, and the emotional core and the action, visuals, and fluff forms a symbiotic relationship to create the story... The story isn't just a series of action sequences, and it isn't just a series of emotional beats, it's both. That's what makes a great action story. And thus, that's what makes this arc great.

It's basic stuff, but it's surprising how many bad movies, TV shows, etc. fail at this simple concept of, to borrow some terminology from Andrew Hussie, having both meat and candy in your story.

[Matches Malone]

Not only can it be more, but it should be more. It's all well and good to play with a fun premise that generates exciting action sequences, but if there's no solid emotional core, and/or no real themes or character arcs to delve into, you have a pretty shallow experience.

There was also Roshi's arc with him trusting martial arts to the next gen and trying his hardest to get through to Tien. This development and the way he walked into the sunset after dropping out of his match made his death far more impactful. Despite the next tournament having better action, I think this one hands down has the better story.

[ArmenianPepsi]

Oh god I can't wait until we can finally touch on 23rd Tournament Saga so I have a good excuse to talk about it. I just finished Dragon Ball today. All 154 episodes down for the count.

[KBABZ]

Oh god I can't wait until we can finally touch on 23rd Tournament Saga so I have a good excuse to talk about it. I just finished Dragon Ball today. All 154 episodes down for the count.

I always found it the most redundant of the Dragon Ball arcs, but we'll talk more about that when we get there!

[ArmenianPepsi]

Oh god I can't wait until we can finally touch on 23rd Tournament Saga so I have a good excuse to talk about it. I just finished Dragon Ball today. All 154 episodes down for the count.

I always found it the most redundant of the Dragon Ball arcs, but we'll talk more about that when we get there!

Definitely

[Matches Malone]

Oh god I can't wait until we can finally touch on 23rd Tournament Saga so I have a good excuse to talk about it. I just finished Dragon Ball today. All 154 episodes down for the count.

I'll be finishing it within the next 5-7 days so the pacing here is definitely a bit slow for me.

[Robo4900]

Oh god I can't wait until we can finally touch on 23rd Tournament Saga so I have a good excuse to talk about it. I just finished Dragon Ball today. All 154 episodes down for the count.

I'll be finishing it within the next 5-7 days so the pacing here is definitely a bit slow for me.

lol

If you guys wanted us to move a bit faster, you only needed to say so.

I know a few others are taking part in this rewatch, so probably best if we hear from them before making a decision, but if people want to speed us up a bit, I'm happy to do that.
Personally, I do quite like 5 episodes a week, but in fairness, at this rate we won't be finishing the run for... A while.

We could try moving up to 8 a week, if people are okay with it. We'd finish in August next year instead of March the year after.
Alternately, we could move up to 10 a week, and we'd finish in May next year instead. But tbh, I don't think I want to watch ten episodes a week for a full year.

[KBABZ]

If you guys wanted us to move a bit faster, you only needed to say so.

I know a few others are taking part in this rewatch, so probably best if we hear from them before making a decision, but if people want to speed us up a bit, I'm happy to do that.
Personally, I do quite like 5 episodes a week, but in fairness, at this rate we won't be finishing the run for... A while.

We could try moving up to 8 a week, if people are okay with it. We'd finish in August next year instead of March the year after.
Alternately, we could move up to 10 a week, and we'd finish in May next year instead. But tbh, I don't think I want to watch ten episodes a week for a full year.

5 episodes a week I always felt was an appropriate number because that was the original rate DBZ aired in the west, at least in New Zealand: 4pm every weekday after school, right between Pokémon and Shinzo/Digimon.

If I were to pick an accelerated number, I would actually say 7 because then that's one episode a day, meaning a nice routine can be made if you can pick a good timeslot to watch in every day, say over dinner or something.

[Matches Malone]

Alternately, we could move up to 10 a week, and we'd finish in May next year instead. But tbh, I don't think I want to watch ten episodes a week for a full year.

If I were to pick an accelerated number, I would actually say 7 because then that's one episode a day, meaning a nice routine can be made if you can pick a good timeslot to watch in every day, say over dinner or something.

When I watch the Z part of the story I tend to do so through Kai, so would it be OK to have the re-watch starting with Z be more like 40 episodes a week ? Otherwise you're going to be very far behind me story wise. By the time you finish the Namek arc at episode 107, I'll be at the 25th Tenkaichi getting introduced to the Supreme Kai.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Alternately, we could move up to 10 a week, and we'd finish in May next year instead. But tbh, I don't think I want to watch ten episodes a week for a full year.

If I were to pick an accelerated number, I would actually say 7 because then that's one episode a day, meaning a nice routine can be made if you can pick a good timeslot to watch in every day, say over dinner or something.

When I watch the Z part of the story I tend to do so through Kai, so would it be OK to have the re-watch starting with Z be more like 40 episodes a week ? Otherwise you're going to be very far behind me story wise. By the time you finish the Namek arc at episode 107, I'll be at the 25th Tenkaichi getting introduced to the Supreme Kai.

Yeah, because watching all 291 episodes is going to be quite a chore to watch through including the filler episodes which is why i choose to go with Kai because it's the more streamlined version over Z.

[Matches Malone]

Yeah, because watching all 291 episodes is going to be quite a chore to watch through including the filler episodes which is why i choose to go with Kai because it's the more streamlined version over Z.

What I also like about Kai apart from its fast pacing is how close it is to the original DB's pacing. Going from the 23rd Tenkaichi's 16 episodes to the Saiyan arc's 18 episodes is a lot more of a natural transition than to Z's 38 episodes.

I hope Robo would consider having the re-watch be on Kai, as not only would it be more convenient time wise, we'll have more to talk about. Goku's fight against Freeza on Namek will take 4 weeks to cover due to it being 21 episodes in Z, while only 2 weeks through Kai's 11 episodes. There's honestly not going to be much to discuss during those 4 weeks due to the story just not moving. With Kai, the first week cover's Base Goku's fight, while the second week covers his Ssj fight.