"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I don’t understand how Vegeta “jobbed”
this chapter. He lost ironically by Moro doing exactly what Vegeta accuses him of stealing from others or in this case literally eating one of his allies.

People never focus on the thematic bigger picture and only seem to care about the final win.

Me either. What the hell was Vegeta supposed to do? He legit had no idea what happened before Moro-7-3 knocked him down. Vegeta was knocked down by a fusion that is a last resort tactic by Moro, how the hell was he supposed to combat that?

If anyone is winning, its by a team effort that finally puts Moro into the grave.

[The Undying]

They have nothing in common outside of both being evil, wanting Dragon Balls to further their goal, and killing Namekians.

"Besides all these things they have in common, they have nothing in common."

Gee, it's almost like the best antagonists serve as a catalyst for the protagonist's growth, motivation, and personal/emotional investment in the story. It's almost like Moro's merciless slaughter of a race for magical wish orbs that Vegeta previously committed the same crime towards (and for the same reasons) serves as a foil to Vegeta's current self.

Different villains relate to the hero's motives in different ways, surprise surprise.

Vegeta's hyped up ability was a let down. Circular ability; Just absorbs those who absorbs.

It's more that it negates the strength those who don't rely on their own power, which is actually pretty fitting for someone of Vegeta's outlook.

[HeroR]

They have nothing in common outside of both being evil, wanting Dragon Balls to further their goal, and killing Namekians.

"Besides all these things they have in common, they have nothing in common."

Gee, it's almost like the best antagonists serve as a catalyst for the protagonist's growth, motivation, and personal/emotional investment in the story. It's almost like Moro's merciless slaughter of a race for magical wish orbs that Vegeta previously committed the same crime towards (and for the same reasons) serves as a foil to Vegeta's current self.

Different villains relate to the hero's motives in different ways, surprise surprise.

Vegeta's hyped up ability was a let down. Circular ability; Just absorbs those who absorbs.

It's more that it negates the strength those who don't rely on their own power, which is actually pretty fitting for someone of Vegeta's outlook.

Now you're arguing semantic. Okay then, they have very little in common other than: both being evil, wanting Dragon Balls to further their goal, and killing Namekians. That is literally all they have in common and that is a dime a dozen thing in Dragon Ball. He isn't a foil like Freeza or even Cell. He's just bad guy #110.

Better?

You can't have a this giant thing about 'Vegeta wants to used Moro to make up for his sins', when we already had several villains after Buu and one of them was Freeza, Vegeta's original foil/shadow. So where was this 'he wants to make up for his sins' there? Same with Black? Was it just Moro because he happened to be murdering Namekians for their Dragon Balls? Vegeta killed humans like Freeza and Black when he went Majin and blew up a chuck of the stadium, so why are the Namekians' special. Do those humans he murdered don't count because he happened to wished them back?

[Psajdak]

So annoying...

Vegeta's actions in Buu saga were enough of redemption for him.

...

I can't help but feel that there simply isn't anything left for both Vegeta, or Goku to be said .

[The Undying]

Now you're arguing semantic.

My guy.

You literally just tried to pry apart three completely related aspects of a single parallel between two characters in an attempt to downplay them, despite all three of them distinctly contributing to a specific motive involving a specific action.

That is the epitome of splitting hairs.

If anything, this is actually more narratively involved than whatever you're trying to argue for Freeza or Cell, since stuff like "pride" and "ego" are generic descriptors that have nothing to do with specific story motives or even individual behaviors.

That's a massive stretch on both counts. You can think whatever you want about whether these characters have a connection, but it just doesn't seem like you're putting forth a convincing counterpoint here.

Vegeta killed humans like Freeza and Black when he went Majin and blew up a chuck of the stadium, so why are the Namekians' special. Do those humans he murdered don't count because he happened to wished them back?

This is a lot of word salad just to make a point that doesn't sound very coherent on its own.

The Earthlings counted in the Boo arc because of the context and circumstances. The Namekians count in the current arc because of the context and circumstances. Vegeta wanted to make amends for both. There's nothing more to it than that.

[Dragon Wukong]

I don't know why people are acting like Vegeta's technique is useless from here-on or moving forward to future arcs. Did y'all not pay attention during Vegeta's training on Yardrat? It can take the energy out of anyone. It can even remove the energy from a group of people at one time.

It's not useless against non-fusion or non-absorption opponents. It's very likely that the technique would've changed the game in fights against Frieza, Jiren, or Broly as well.

Also to people complaining about Vegeta's "I'm still bound for hell" line. Even if we the audience know that, Vegeta can atone and still recognize the multiple atrocities he's committed, it's not impossible that he still feels bound for hell even if he's a fine enough person now to be considered a good guy by Shenron to some capacity. To downplay the dialogue in this chapter is ignoring the deliberate dichotomy in what Piccolo (who acts as something of a mouthpiece for what we, the audience have seen up 'til now to comment on something Goku doesn't really care for) see in him now and how Vegeta himself views his past. We haven't had a scene like that in Dragon Ball before, ever in fact. Bar maybe as a one-off joke or something about how everyone Goku meets is good now. Vegeta has never given off the vibe that he's trying to atone for what he's done in the past in the Buu arc, or any arc in Super. It's always been about those personally close to him.

On another note, I'm a fan of Moro's new design. I know people hate the more human-ish feel to it, but his design still feels evocative of western demons. More Pan/Satyrs than some demonic goat god.

[DiscountDabi]

On another note, I'm a fan of Moro's new design. I know people hate the more human-ish feel to it, but his design still feels evocative of western demons. More Pan/Satyrs than some demonic goat god.

I’m glad someone likes it, but I’m still on the fence about it. If he didn’t look so much like Cell it’d probably be better.Also I saw someone did a version that kept his goat like face and mixed it with 7-3. Its not better

https://imgur.com/cz1Tj6j

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

On another note, I'm a fan of Moro's new design. I know people hate the more human-ish feel to it, but his design still feels evocative of western demons. More Pan/Satyrs than some demonic goat god.

I’m glad someone likes it, but I’m still on the fence about it. If he didn’t look so much like Cell it’d probably be better.Also I saw someone did a version that kept his goat like face and mixed it with 7-3. Its not better

https://imgur.com/cz1Tj6j

That literally scared the hell out of me. The face legit scared me more than Moro's current design ever did.

[Matches Malone]

This story has spent more time on Vegeta's role than any other character. It would be entirely fitting if he's the one to take down Moro when everything's said and done.

Toyotaro has went out of his way to link these 2 characters together, so the chances of him winning are very high.

Here's the percentage I believe each character has of getting the win:

Vegeta: 90%. This number was a lot lower before chapter 61 released, but now I've got no doubt he'll be the final winner here.

Merus: 60%. This is who I believed would take Moro down, but based on everything set up between Vegeta and Moro, Piccolo's speech, and Vegeta's ability to defuse characters, I think his chances went down significantly.

Dai kaioshin/Buu: 20%. He's been out of the picture for over 6 chapters now, and he said his magic wasn't strong enough on a previous, weaker Moro. That's not to say he can't get involved and help, but even that's looking less likely.

Goku: 0%. There's nothing here that indicates he'll take down Moro, and if anything he's being set up for the next arc to be focused on as continues to master UI. Him winning here would be as out of place as things get. He will of course play a crucial role in helping Vegeta split Moro and 7-3, so he won't just be on the side doing nothing, he's not Gohan after all.

So Vegeta is going to job again. How surprising. You do realize that there are over a DOZEN arcs in Dragon Ball right? Is it so hard to just ask for ONE (1) single Arc where he gets the main kill? Is that honestly too hard for Toriyama to allow?

I'm more surprised at how you came to this conclusion. Vegeta can separate fused beings, something I doubt would be established if it wasn't going to play some role in the plot. There's also the fact he was told about some healing ability on Yardrat, which won't be hard to pull off now that Moro isn't paying attention to him. Do you really think Toriyama/Toyotaro would've gone out of their way to establish a link between him and Moro from day 1, all the way up until now, only to give the kill to someone like Goku who has 0 to do with Moro ?

I don’t understand how Vegeta “jobbed”

Same here, especially after he not only took down someone who stepped on UI Omen, but also gave the universe back its energy. So far he had the best performance against Moro, the best by far.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

This story has spent more time on Vegeta's role than any other character. It would be entirely fitting if he's the one to take down Moro when everything's said and done.

Toyotaro has went out of his way to link these 2 characters together, so the chances of him winning are very high.

Here's the percentage I believe each character has of getting the win:

Vegeta: 90%. This number was a lot lower before chapter 61 released, but now I've got no doubt he'll be the final winner here.

Merus: 60%. This is who I believed would take Moro down, but based on everything set up between Vegeta and Moro, Piccolo's speech, and Vegeta's ability to defuse characters, I think his chances went down significantly.

Dai kaioshin/Buu: 20%. He's been out of the picture for over 6 chapters now, and he said his magic wasn't strong enough on a previous, weaker Moro. That's not to say he can't get involved and help, but even that's looking less likely.

Goku: 0%. There's nothing here that indicates he'll take down Moro, and if anything he's being set up for the next arc to be focused on as continues to master UI. Him winning here would be as out of place as things get. He will of course play a crucial role in helping Vegeta split Moro and 7-3, so he won't just be on the side doing nothing, he's not Gohan after all.

So Vegeta is going to job again. How surprising. You do realize that there are over a DOZEN arcs in Dragon Ball right? Is it so hard to just ask for ONE (1) single Arc where he gets the main kill? Is that honestly too hard for Toriyama to allow?

I'm more surprised at how you came to this conclusion. Vegeta can separate fused beings, something I doubt would be established if it wasn't going to play some role in the plot. There's also the fact he was told about some healing ability on Yardrat, which won't be hard to pull off now that Moro isn't paying attention to him. Do you really think Toriyama/Toyotaro would've gone out of their way to establish a link between him and Moro from day 1, all the way up until now, only to give the kill to someone like Goku who has 0 to do with Moro ?

I don’t understand how Vegeta “jobbed”

Same here, especially after he not only took down someone who stepped on UI Omen, but also gave the universe back its energy. So far he had the best performance against Moro, the best by far.

Also, Merus is being watched. Whis won't let him do jack while he's watching. Whis has fifty problems and Merus dying would multiple it by 100. I can't see Whis allowing Merus to do anything. Whis is literally trying to keep things from getting ugly and he needs Merus on him at all times.

I firmly believe team effort will play a part and that no one person is fully claiming credit. Maybe Vegeta will lead, but he's gonna need backup. Also, I feel when Vegeta inches himself up again, Moro will try to neck him because he wants Vegeta's powers. If he tried Goku I don't think it would work, UI isn't something you can get off of someone I imagine.

I don't understand how Vegeta jobbed, the guy legit had no idea what even happened. All he saw was dust and smoke before he got smacked away by the fusion of Moro and 7-3. What was he supposed to do? No one had a clue Moro would get desperate enough to pull a Cell and absorb/fuse with 7-3.

Though I have to say, I'm surprised Moro hasn't claimed one of the Z fighters lives yet. Moro's kills so far have been mostly innocent populations who we've had no connection with(exceptions being the Namekians, but some of them have been brought back to life due to Vegeta's power) and his own henchmen (Cranberry, Saganbo, Shimorekka) He's yet to kill anyone close...yet.

[goku the krump dancer]

One of the best chapters in a long while.. If anything though, i'm more interested in the direction of the next chapter, i mean clearly its gonna be the "Moro cleans house" chapter but he has already beaten Goku and Vegeta (for the most part), so he really doesn't have anyone to make an example out of whom he couldn't just swat away in his previous form.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

One of the best chapters in a long while.. If anything though, i'm more interested in the direction of the next chapter, i mean clearly its gonna be the "Moro cleans house" chapter but he has already beaten Goku and Vegeta (for the most part), so he really doesn't have anyone to make an example out of whom he couldn't just swat away in his previous form.

He's probably going to end up torturing one of the upper B glass fighters if they can't manage to do anything to him. I imagine Gohan knowing he's outmatched will try defending Goku from Moro, and try to fight him only to get a brutal ass beating.

Goku's in a weakened state and triggering UI let alone MUI is going to be a massive pain in the ass that isn't happening anytime soon. Vegeta is...knocked out cold for now. The Z remaining upper class fighters (Gohan, 17-18, Piccolo) are gonna be in hell trying to fight Moro. Moro was wrecking everyone before, they'll basically get fucked until Vegeta wakes the fuck up and Goku gets some juice back in him.

Well the good news if that Beerus seems like he's on his way to Earth. If all else fails and Moro wins truthfully, they can at least count on Beerus's late arrival to come into play, since I doubt Beerus said "WHIS I'M HUNGRY! WANNA GO TO EARTH NOW!" for no reason.

[DiscountDabi]

Well the good news if that Beerus seems like he's on his way to Earth. If all else fails and Moro wins truthfully, they can at least count on Beerus's late arrival to come into play, since I doubt Beerus said "WHIS I'M HUNGRY! WANNA GO TO EARTH NOW!" for no reason.

I hope this is hyperbole because he didn’t say that.In fact, what he said had no insinuation of him going to earth. Just that he wanted food.

I don’t get why people want Beerus to come and fight. This isn’t his fight to win, its Vegeta’s. The best time for Beerus to come in is when Goku finally Masters Ultra Instinct and he wants a Rematch. Vegeta Deserves the win here since he has the most “Connection” to Moro

[Matches Malone]

I don’t get why people want Beerus to come and fight. This isn’t his fight to win, its Vegeta’s. The best time for Beerus to come in is when Goku finally Masters Ultra Instinct and he wants a Rematch. Vegeta Deserves the win here since he has the most “Connection” to Moro

I definitely agree with this. Despite not having an issue with Beerus taking care of things, There's been too much build up for Vegeta to just put aside on the last minute. I just can't see (as of now) anyone other than Vegeta taking out Moro, with 7-3 more than likely being killed by Goku.

[BWri]

Nail's purpose was just to facilitate their meeting Guru and to help Piccolo stall Freeza. That's it. Bringing him back serves no purpose.

What do you mean? New Namek needs all the powerful fighters it can get. Nail would be a great Guardian for the planet. The man's potential was crazy, being Ginyu Force level while other Namekian warriors peaked out at about twice as strong as Raditz. And perhaps Piccolo might return to a slightly more spicier version of himself without Nail's influence .

[Psajdak]

There's been too much build up for Vegeta to just put aside on the last minute.

Buu saga Gohan, Goten, and Trunks would like to have a word with you.

[BWri]

Not sure if anyone else has cited this yet but does Vegeta's remark to Piccolo about having the power to forcibly remove his fusion partners irk anyone else? I know it was intended to be a tongue in cheek jab to help reinforce the quality of this new technique but it still kind of drives home the reality of Piccolo's submission to Vegeta in recent years with little to none of the resolve we saw from him in arcs like Freeza and when Future Trunks first returned to the future after giving his warning.

I wish Piccolo could have countered with something along the lines of him knowing to use the Mafuba or something having to do with his own magic in the form of the materialisation power.

I did a video review of the chapter and briefly mentioned this. I was half joking, half serious because I'm now under the impression that Piccolo is a Vegeta fanboy. Hear me out here.

Do you remember how he couldn't stop gushing about Vegeta's bluff after his fight with Android 19, going so far as to call him a genius for such a simple move and then in the Buu saga Piccolo gave Vegeta a nice soliloquy upon his death and treated his sacrifice like it was the most noble thing of all time, even though he himself had done the same thing to save Gohan?

Then in the BoG arc when Whis is about to splatter him and Vegeta intervenes, he goes into this fanboy-esque inner monologue about what Vegeta was trying to communicate by throwing the ki blast between Piccolo and Whis while Vegeta just had this look of "cut the crap, Piccolo". Piccolo is always the one during the ToP giving exposition of Vegeta's powerups, and he forfeited during the U6 tourney with no resistance. It could be that Piccolo is being written to be timid, which I no longer think. It could be that he's just written to be mature and wise, which is most likely. But this fanboy theory of mine is starting to take hold. At the very least, Piccolo holds Vegeta in very high regard and respects him greatly and has a strange sort of faith in the man.

*edit, and I forgot to mention his full fanboy breakdown in chapter 61. He basically came across like someone who's been reading the manga chapters and watching Totally Not Mark videos lol. I mention TNM because Piccolo basically references Goku's "flat character arc" here. But some of the stuff Piccolo knows about Vegeta here, he'd only know if he was reading the man's mind or watching him remotely, which we know Kami could do. I chalked it up to him reading the intent in his ki, but it's coming across a little stalkery Piccle-man.

[BWri]

Vegeta has the power to sneeze Piccolo out of existence, the Namekian already knows how utterly outclassed he is and that’s why he was also forced out of the U6 Tournament by Vegeta.

He has no tool to fight Vegeta, so replying to that would have been just stupid.

Not like Vegeta would just kill him for talking back, otherwise 18 would be toast for her insult earlier in the chapter. I don't think Piccolo is a slouch in the power department either at this point. Vegeta is much stronger, yes, but this Piccolo might be able to give each of his nongod-SSJ forms trouble. The power creep is insane.

[Matches Malone]

Buu saga Gohan, Goten, and Trunks would like to have a word with you.

Goku (and to a lesser extent, Vegeta) were in the background the whole time, so things ending with Gotenks or Gohan wasn't really possible. There are currently 5 beings who can take down Moro:

Goku, who's out of energy.

Vegeta, who established having a technique that can split them.

Dai Kaio/Buu who's asleep.

Merus who can't get involved.

Beerus who won't get involved.

Unless Broly decides to stop by and gets attacked by Moro, it's safe to say Vegeta will be the one taking care of this, with Goku and the others as backup. I've already gotten what I wanted and more from Vegeta, so anything more is just a bonus for me, I just don't think anyone else will be taking center stage based on what's been established.

[Kinokima]

So annoying...

Vegeta's actions in Buu saga were enough of redemption for him.

...

I can't help but feel that there simply isn't anything left for both Vegeta, or Goku to be said .

Vegeta’s actions in the Buu saga were enough to redeem him in his friends eyes and the audience eyes. They aren’t enough to redeem him in Vegeta’s eyes

Yes Vegeta sacrificed himself against Buu for his family but he was the one who helped bring Buu back in the first place.

He also helped fight Buu to save the Universe and not to prove he was stronger. In the Buu arc he finally fully chose the side of good. Which is what redeemed him.


In this chapter the only one who doesn’t think he is redeemed is Vegeta himself. He knows he did a lot of horrible things in his past and despite still thinking he deserves hell he wants to atone for those things. It’s often said we are our harshest critic and that is what is happening here. It’s because Vegeta is good now that he thinks of these things.