"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[UpFromTheSkies]

I was really hoping Vegeta was going to finally win this time, but I could tell from how easily he was overpowering Moro that it wasn't over. Now Moro will probably copy Forced Spirit Fission and learn to counter it, and they won't be able to use fusion against him. I wonder how they'll handle this? Maybe someone who was just revived by Forced Spirit Fission will come and help, or Goku will suddenly master Ultra Instinct?

[HeroR]

My guy.

You literally just tried to pry apart three completely related aspects of a single parallel between two characters in an attempt to downplay them, despite all three of them distinctly contributing to a specific motive involving a specific action.

That is the epitome of splitting hairs.

If anything, this is actually more narratively involved than whatever you're trying to argue for Freeza or Cell, since stuff like "pride" and "ego" are generic descriptors that have nothing to do with specific story motives or even individual behaviors.

That's a massive stretch on both counts. You can think whatever you want about whether these characters have a connection, but it just doesn't seem like you're putting forth a convincing counterpoint here.



This is a lot of word salad just to make a point that doesn't sound very coherent on its own.

The Earthlings counted in the Boo arc because of the context and circumstances. The Namekians count in the current arc because of the context and circumstances. Vegeta wanted to make amends for both. There's nothing more to it than that.

Really? Okay let me explain it again since you don’t get it despite others here seeing my point.

Vegeta has no real connection to Moro. He is relatable to Vegeta as much as Super Buu is related. Their connection is shallow outside of them killing Namekians.

In comparison, we have Freeza who is everything Vegeta would have become if he kept being the same person he was in the Saiyan Saga. If we replace Moro with Freeza, then Vegeta wanting to kill Freeza to makeup for past sins make sense giving their similars even if we ignore personal history. And using Freeza isn’t even that farfetched since Freeza came back in Resurrection ‘F’, yet Vegeta didn’t want to kill him to atone. He instead wanted to kill him because he blew up his planet. And Freeza is still alive expanding his empire, so why don’t Vegeta go out and kill Freeza both to stop his terror and atone?

Or let’s used Black. In the manga, Vegeta’s primary reason for fighting Black wasn’t to atone. He wanted to fight him because he had Goku’s face and even offered Black the chance to just leave despite all the stuff he did. Why wasn’t Vegeta thinking of using Black to atone for past misdeeds, especially with how he originally treated Future Trunks?

Does this explain things? Vegeta had at least two chances in Super to atone if that was his goal, but it’s literally never brought up, not even with Freeza despite all their parallels and past history. It’s only a thing now and it feels force since it only seemed to happened because Moro killed Namekians.

It was never brought up because that's just not how DB works. Toriyama's characters tend to not hold past actions as baggage so it's no wonder that, in the stories Toriyama provided outlines for, this type of thing wasn't brought up. There was no need for it to be. It just stinks of Toyotarou trying to address the killing of the Namekian village because it wasn't in the original run, forcing it into "development" while forgetting who Vegeta is as a person.

I get that from an out of universe explanation. Which is why I feel that if Toyo was going write this kind of story, he needed to make Moro's connection much stronger than: kill Namekians, want Dragon Balls, want to rule the universe, profit. Toriyama himself did this when he created Freeza to be a worst Vegeta to make Vegeta looked better and redeemable. Which is why Freeza is basically 'Vegeta, but worst' on Namek.

Moro being uninspiring and shallow also isn't helping. Like Moro slaughtered a bunch of Namekians and wiped the race yet again, and I honestly don't care since Toyo didn't give me any real emotional investment unlike the Namek Saga where the Namekians genocide was horrifying, especially in the original manga. In fact, I keep forgetting that Moro killed the Namekians since it left such little impact on me.

[Kagari]

It feels like you're grasping at straws to make a point when the point doesn't concern the actual plot at all.

Of all the things to complain about in regards to modern DB, this isn't one of them. If anything, more fans should be happy that we've finally gotten an arc that focuses on developing one of the main characters, something that's been lacking in modern DB.

I mean, in the anime at least, several of the major characters had development in the Universe Survival arc. And Trunks had development in his arc.

[Matches Malone]

Gohan isn't a waste of space, I mean how is he supposed to compete with his father and Vegeta, who are legit walking powerhouses?

If Gohan does die, I kinda hope with Moro's demonic origins that means Gohan cannot be revived by normal means.

Doing the SsjG ritual would be a good start.

Resulting in his death leading into another arc to revive him, like how the Saiyan arc lead into the Namek arc to revive everyone who were killed by the Saiyans ? I like that idea, it'll be nice to see 2 arcs connected that much, as Super's arcs have been more or less standalone.

[Dragon Wukong]

As a non-english speaker, I thought I got something wrong reading the manga because I saw people complaining that Vegeta new technique was too specific to Moro, but from my understanding he can drain anyone and not just Moro.

The dialogue in this chapter specifically notes that the technique can forcibly separate absorptions or fusions, but people seem a little hung up on that tidbit to the point they didn't notice or simply forgot how the technique was used on Vegeta and Hatska on Yardrat and left them completely drained of energy. Negating absorptions and fusions isn't the entirety of the technique, it just happens to be the most useful and relevant application for this arc.

The technique is basically a more advanced form of what Moro has been doing this whole time, only Vegeta isn't a life form who can just consume that energy to become stronger like Moro.

[Dragon Wukong]

It feels like you're grasping at straws to make a point when the point doesn't concern the actual plot at all.

Of all the things to complain about in regards to modern DB, this isn't one of them. If anything, more fans should be happy that we've finally gotten an arc that focuses on developing one of the main characters, something that's been lacking in modern DB.

I mean, in the anime at least, several of the major characters had development in the Universe Survival arc. And Trunks had development in his arc.

Except Vegeta, whose whole character remained completely stagnant in Dragon Ball Super until this arc. None of the other characters are nearly as prominent as Goku in this series except Vegeta, keep in mind.

[Psajdak]

Forced Spirit Fission reminds me of Mafuba, and to some degree Genki Dama...

For most part those are all useless tehniques.

[Matches Malone]

I wonder how they'll handle this? Maybe someone who was just revived by Forced Spirit Fission will come and help, or Goku will suddenly master Ultra Instinct?

Or Vegeta will use the technique he mentioned before they fused, the one everyone seems to be overlooking, the ability to undo the fusion of a fused being. Once that's done, Vegeta will have no trouble turning Moro into dust.

In the anime at least, several of the major characters had development in the Universe Survival arc.

And Trunks had development in his arc.

True, but the arc wasn't centered around it like this seems to be in regards to Vegeta.

The less said about Trunks the better, that arc completely ruined him for me.

[Mad Swami]

It feels like you're grasping at straws to make a point when the point doesn't concern the actual plot at all.

Of all the things to complain about in regards to modern DB, this isn't one of them. If anything, more fans should be happy that we've finally gotten an arc that focuses on developing one of the main characters, something that's been lacking in modern DB.

I mean, in the anime at least, several of the major characters had development in the Universe Survival arc. And Trunks had development in his arc.

Piccolo didn't develop much in the anime and nor did any human except for Roshi. Vegeta in the anime is total garbage though it's just tacky repeat of Buu. I mean the manga isn't perfect but the anime really just has no idea what to do with Vegeta. However, T.O.P had some decent development. 18, Gohan was decent, and Roshi by far probably. 17 idk if I would say he developed much. I mean I guess he learns near the end to fight for the right cause or something. Like Frieza, he learns about trusting others but that's more of Frieza's arc. What would you say was 17's arc? Speaking of Frieza, he was done great in the anime I will say despite the idea being terrible. The execution was good.

[Psajdak]

Moro's Final Form isn't going anywhere.

[Kagari]

Gohan isn't a waste of space, I mean how is he supposed to compete with his father and Vegeta, who are legit walking powerhouses?

If Gohan does die, I kinda hope with Moro's demonic origins that means Gohan cannot be revived by normal means.

Doing the SsjG ritual would be a good start.

Resulting in his death leading into another arc to revive him, like how the Saiyan arc lead into the Namek arc to revive everyone who were killed by the Saiyans ? I like that idea, it'll be nice to see 2 arcs connected that much, as Super's arcs have been more or less standalone.

He doesn't need the SSG ritual when his Ultimate form scales up to the god tiers now, even in the manga.

Of all the things to complain about in regards to modern DB, this isn't one of them. If anything, more fans should be happy that we've finally gotten an arc that focuses on developing one of the main characters, something that's been lacking in modern DB.

I mean, in the anime at least, several of the major characters had development in the Universe Survival arc. And Trunks had development in his arc.

Except Vegeta, whose whole character remained completely stagnant in Dragon Ball Super until this arc. None of the other characters are nearly as prominent as Goku in this series except Vegeta, keep in mind.

Vegeta had development in Battle of the Gods when he shed his pride. Goku even compliments him on this.

[Mad Swami]

I wonder how they'll handle this? Maybe someone who was just revived by Forced Spirit Fission will come and help, or Goku will suddenly master Ultra Instinct?

Or Vegeta will use the technique he mentioned before they fused, the one everyone seems to be overlooking, the ability to undo the fusion of a fused being. Once that's done, Vegeta will have no trouble turning Moro into dust.

In the anime at least, several of the major characters had development in the Universe Survival arc.

And Trunks had development in his arc.

True, but the arc wasn't centered around it like this seems to be in regards to Vegeta.

The less said about Trunks the better, that arc completely ruined him for me.

I kind of agree. Honestly, I don't have an issue with him seeking help from Goku and Vegeta honestly. It's just more the way he behaves. I more just hate the stupid transformation he gets or the Spirit sword with no explanation.

[Mad Swami]

Gohan isn't a waste of space, I mean how is he supposed to compete with his father and Vegeta, who are legit walking powerhouses?

If Gohan does die, I kinda hope with Moro's demonic origins that means Gohan cannot be revived by normal means.

Doing the SsjG ritual would be a good start.

Resulting in his death leading into another arc to revive him, like how the Saiyan arc lead into the Namek arc to revive everyone who were killed by the Saiyans ? I like that idea, it'll be nice to see 2 arcs connected that much, as Super's arcs have been more or less standalone.

He doesn't need the SSG ritual when his Ultimate form scales up to the god tiers now, even in the manga.

I mean, in the anime at least, several of the major characters had development in the Universe Survival arc. And Trunks had development in his arc.

Except Vegeta, whose whole character remained completely stagnant in Dragon Ball Super until this arc. None of the other characters are nearly as prominent as Goku in this series except Vegeta, keep in mind.

Vegeta had development in Battle of the Gods when he shed his pride. Goku even compliments him on this.

I honestly don't like the idea of SSG Gohan, the only hybrid Saiyan who should receive god imo was Future Trunks.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Gohan isn't a waste of space, I mean how is he supposed to compete with his father and Vegeta, who are legit walking powerhouses?

If Gohan does die, I kinda hope with Moro's demonic origins that means Gohan cannot be revived by normal means.

Doing the SsjG ritual would be a good start.

Resulting in his death leading into another arc to revive him, like how the Saiyan arc lead into the Namek arc to revive everyone who were killed by the Saiyans ? I like that idea, it'll be nice to see 2 arcs connected that much, as Super's arcs have been more or less standalone.

Besides, that means we can go to other universes because the Super Dragon Balls aren't exactly in one place. If Gohan or someone else important is killed by Moro, and if Moro being a demonic being is true, them not being able to be revived would make sense. As long as this arc doesn't go,"Merus intervenes" I think I'll be fine if they kill a few people off.

I mean, most of the people Moro's killed are either his henchmen or defenseless populations, he's yet to kill one of the gang...yet.

Of course for that ritual, Gohan needs to be alive I imagine to participate.

[Psajdak]

He doesn't need the SSG ritual when his Ultimate form scales up to the god tiers now, even in the manga.

His Ultimate form is outdated, and boring.

[Mad Swami]

Gohan isn't a waste of space, I mean how is he supposed to compete with his father and Vegeta, who are legit walking powerhouses?

If Gohan does die, I kinda hope with Moro's demonic origins that means Gohan cannot be revived by normal means.

Doing the SsjG ritual would be a good start.

Resulting in his death leading into another arc to revive him, like how the Saiyan arc lead into the Namek arc to revive everyone who were killed by the Saiyans ? I like that idea, it'll be nice to see 2 arcs connected that much, as Super's arcs have been more or less standalone.

He doesn't need the SSG ritual when his Ultimate form scales up to the god tiers now, even in the manga.

I mean, in the anime at least, several of the major characters had development in the Universe Survival arc. And Trunks had development in his arc.

Except Vegeta, whose whole character remained completely stagnant in Dragon Ball Super until this arc. None of the other characters are nearly as prominent as Goku in this series except Vegeta, keep in mind.

Vegeta had development in Battle of the Gods when he shed his pride. Goku even compliments him on this.

Yeah but his problem arises afterward when the just do his old shtick and have him used to be beaten to increase the stakes

[Dragon Wukong]

Vegeta had development in Battle of the Gods when he shed his pride. Goku even compliments him on this.

A scene which isn't in either continuity of Super. And regardless, it's still sad that the most development Vegeta has gotten until now is a one-off joke in a movie that predates the series when he's the second-most prominent character in Super.

[HeroR]

It feels like you're grasping at straws to make a point when the point doesn't concern the actual plot at all.

Of all the things to complain about in regards to modern DB, this isn't one of them. If anything, more fans should be happy that we've finally gotten an arc that focuses on developing one of the main characters, something that's been lacking in modern DB.

I mean, in the anime at least, several of the major characters had development in the Universe Survival arc. And Trunks had development in his arc.

That and Vegeta developed in the Future Trunks Saga. By his actions, did you really need the anime to stop and tell you that Vegeta was making up being such a lousy piece of shit to Trunks in the Cell Saga.

It even had an on the nose moment where Vegeta said he was fighting Black not to avenge his lost, but to save Trunks and his world, which made Black note how that didn’t sound like a Saiyan. Heck, Vegeta also had none of his usual cockiness in that arc, which everyone noted. In fact, he was more focused than Vegeta in this chapter since he didn’t give a damn about one-upping Goku, proving he was more talented, having a fair fight, or taking the win for himself. He just wanted Black dead and didn’t really cared how it happened.

[Mad Swami]

Vegeta had development in Battle of the Gods when he shed his pride. Goku even compliments him on this.

A scene which isn't in either continuity of Super. And regardless, it's still sad that the most development Vegeta has gotten until now is a one-off joke in a movie that predates the series when he's the second-most prominent character in Super.

I mean I agree with the other part but at the same time he does more than the dance which causes him to sacrifice his pride I would say

[Matches Malone]

Vegeta had development in Battle of the Gods when he shed his pride. Goku even compliments him on this.

This is true, but this arc is showing there's still plenty to do with his character.

If Gohan or someone else important is killed by Moro, and if Moro being a demonic being is true, them not being able to be revived would make sense. As long as this arc doesn't go,"Merus intervenes" I think I'll be fine if they kill a few people off.

Considering how Vegeta focused this arc is, I think it's safe to say the next one will be Goku focused, so what better way to focus on Goku than with him trying to bring his son back ?

Vegeta developed in the Future Trunks Saga.

Vegeta has gotten small pieces of development in each arc, the difference is that none of those arcs were his. This arc on the other hand from the very start was all about him, and continues to be so.