Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:43 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:54 pm
Do you have any scan\reference\proof that "Power of a Super Saiyan God" and "God Ki" are different things?
If we all can agree that Ki is the energy/power you possess, then the scan/reference/proof you want is the Dragon Ball series itself, watch it/read it.

God Ki would be this divine energy/power that initially or seemingly can't be sensed by mortals. Effectively, "Ki" would be a synonym for "energy", "power". Unless we have different interpretations of what Ki truly is.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by The Undying » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:26 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:54 pm
Do you have any scan\reference\proof that "Power of a Super Saiyan God" and "God Ki" are different things?
There are a few examples that would point to them being distinct, independent things:

1. Probably the most obvious instance is Goku absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God in the movie and TV anime versions of BoG. The characters mention that they can sense his ki again, so it's pretty clear he managed to retain the form's strength without retaining god ki in particular.

2. In episodes 20 and 22, Goku and Vegeta explicitly tap into god ki (in their base forms) during training. Vegeta notes that it has an intense pressure, but there's no direct mention of god ki boosting his strength per se. Whis says that the exercise is to prevent them from alerting opponents. Either way, they can use that ki source without transforming.

3. In the manga's exhibition match, Goku transforms into SSG to reach "the level of the gods" and to "cast the aura of a god". Toppo then says he'll respond in the same way and proceeds to raise his power - however, base Goku already mentioned prior to the match that he could neither sense Toppo's ki nor that of the gods.

4. Ultra Instinct incorporates god ki, despite having no connection to the previous forms; the obvious implication being that while the god forms enable god ki, god ki doesn't automatically enable the god forms.

SSG, SSB and UI are strong transformations simply because they're strong transformations, just like any other Super Saiyan form. That's the simplest, most straightforward conclusion. I feel like people are overcomplicating these concepts.
Last edited by The Undying on Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Peach » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:27 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:07 am
Peach wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:36 am
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:51 am


Again, how Vegeta learned SSGSS was only in one adaptation. The anime.

Movies, it's implied the ritual was used. Manga skips Resurrection F (or if you wanna include the Res F promotional chapters, it skips the fight where it's used) so it doesn't matter.

I wouldn't care too much. There's 3 continuities and I'm pretty sure every version of Resurrection F has been retconned in someway by this point anyhow (what with SSG not being absorbed anymore.)
Finally someone is talking with common sense. This is true. There are three continuities.


1. The movie continuity, which starts off years later. Everything in the manga and Yo Son Goku and His Friends Return happened.

2. The anime continuity, which kickstarts only 6 months after Kid Buu. This seems to be a direct sequel to the Dragon Ball Z anime since it includes filler characters like Gregory. The movie continuity seem has shifted into existing in this world starting with Dragon Ball Super Broly.

3. The manga continuity.


Obviously stuff that happened in the anime continuity (like Vegeta changing Beerus' sheets, circumventing the ritual, Captain Ginyu returning, and the superhuman water saga) didn't happen in the the movie or the manga. It's just Toei's interpretation of events.
There's literally no way Vegeta could have used the ritual in any continuity. It makes zero sense (and no were in the Movie is Vegeta using the ritual ever implied. You are just reading into things).

- 1st, the ritual requires a Saiyan standing in a circle with 5 other Saiyans holding hands. To argue that Vegeta used the ritual to unlock SSG is to argue that at some point after BoG Vegeta called up Goku, Gohan, Goten, Trunks and a pregent Videl again to perform the ritual again, which is never implied to have happened in any version of RoF.

- The fact that Gohan and the all the Z-fighters except Goku were all surprised that Vegeta could even use God ki and God forms at all in every version of RoF suggest that they never used the ritual on Vegeta.

- Also, claiming Vegeta used to ritual fails to explain why they never bothered using it on Gohan and the other 2 Saiyans afterwards when there's no cost in doing so.
Gohan was surprised he went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan Blue, not that he had God ki.

Vegeta said in the ending to Battle of Gods that he wanted to do the ritual next time. "Next time" happened off screen. He absorbed the power of a god into his base after the ritual and mastered the new Super Saiyan. Don't confuse Toei's continuity with the other continuities, boy. It's got a lot of unnecessary padding.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:36 pm

Peach wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:27 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:07 am
Peach wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:36 am

Finally someone is talking with common sense. This is true. There are three continuities.


1. The movie continuity, which starts off years later. Everything in the manga and Yo Son Goku and His Friends Return happened.

2. The anime continuity, which kickstarts only 6 months after Kid Buu. This seems to be a direct sequel to the Dragon Ball Z anime since it includes filler characters like Gregory. The movie continuity seem has shifted into existing in this world starting with Dragon Ball Super Broly.

3. The manga continuity.


Obviously stuff that happened in the anime continuity (like Vegeta changing Beerus' sheets, circumventing the ritual, Captain Ginyu returning, and the superhuman water saga) didn't happen in the the movie or the manga. It's just Toei's interpretation of events.
There's literally no way Vegeta could have used the ritual in any continuity. It makes zero sense (and no were in the Movie is Vegeta using the ritual ever implied. You are just reading into things).

- 1st, the ritual requires a Saiyan standing in a circle with 5 other Saiyans holding hands. To argue that Vegeta used the ritual to unlock SSG is to argue that at some point after BoG Vegeta called up Goku, Gohan, Goten, Trunks and a pregent Videl again to perform the ritual again, which is never implied to have happened in any version of RoF.

- The fact that Gohan and the all the Z-fighters except Goku were all surprised that Vegeta could even use God ki and God forms at all in every version of RoF suggest that they never used the ritual on Vegeta.

- Also, claiming Vegeta used to ritual fails to explain why they never bothered using it on Gohan and the other 2 Saiyans afterwards when there's no cost in doing so.
Gohan was surprised he went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan Blue, not that he had God ki.

Vegeta said in the ending to Battle of Gods that he wanted to do the ritual next time. "Next time" happened off screen. He absorbed the power of a god into his base after the ritual and mastered the new Super Saiyan. Don't confuse Toei's continuity with the other continuities, boy. It's got a lot of unnecessary padding.
- He said at the end of BoG that he wanted to become SSG next time. Nothing there about the ritual.

- If Vegeta used the ritual to unlock SSG & SSB, then Gohan shouldn't have been surprised that Vegeta could go SSG & SSB at all, since Gohan would have been needed to perform the ritual to unlock those forms in the 1st place and thus already know about it (logic).

And what "padding" are you talking about? Its soinds like you're letting your pro-manga bias cloud your view of DBS, like when you falsing assumed that the "28 planets with life" thing was Toei's idea when it was actually from Toriyama himself.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by SSJgogeto » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:37 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:20 am
So you admit you can't prove me wrong lmao.
Well, yeah. But that doesn't mean you're not wrong :wink:

Besides, you look like one of those guys. You know, "look at me, I'm the only one who understand the series, even if I'm wrong, I'm right", so trying to prove you wrong is like banging my head against a brick wall.

Example: I said SS God <> power of SS God = Godly ki. But you keep saying that SS God = power of SS God, because only in this way can your interpretation work.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:38 pm

The Undying wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:26 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:54 pm
Do you have any scan\reference\proof that "Power of a Super Saiyan God" and "God Ki" are different things?
There are a few examples that would point to them being distinct, independent things:

1. Probably the most obvious instance is Goku absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God in the movie and TV anime versions of BoG. The characters mention that they can sense his ki again, so it's pretty clear he managed to retain the form's strength without retaining god ki in particular.

2. In episodes 20 and 22, Goku and Vegeta explicitly tap into god ki (in their base forms) during training. Vegeta notes that it has an intense pressure, but there's no direct mention of god ki boosting his strength per se. Whis says that the exercise is to prevent them from alerting opponents. Either way, they can use that ki source without transforming.

3. In the manga's exhibition match, Goku transforms into SSG to reach "the level of the gods" and to "cast the aura of a god". Toppo then says he'll respond in the same way and proceeds to raise his power - however, base Goku already mentioned prior to the match that he could neither sense Toppo's ki nor that of the gods.

4. Ultra Instinct incorporates god ki, despite having no connection to the previous forms; the obvious implication being that while the god forms enable god ki, god ki doesn't automatically enable the god forms.

SSG, SSB and UI are strong transformations simply because they're strong transformations, just like any other Super Saiyan form. That's the simplest, most straightforward conclusion. I feel like people are overcomplicating these concepts.
Finally, somebody gets it :thumbup:

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:40 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:25 am
The TV anime versions of both BoG and RoF (and manga version of BoG) all contradict the Movie versions of events, so there's no way the Movies are canon to all mediums (especially since back in January 2018 Toriyama said that the Broly film would take place directly after the ToP anime).
Yes, the movie takes place directly after the ToP, which was the arc that just finished airing in the anime at the time lol

I'm not referring to Battle of Gods and Resurrection F in terms of whether or not they can apply to multiple continuities, I'm referring exclusively to DBS Broly, which has no details that contradict the movie or manga continuity. The only detail that contradicts the anime continuity is that Frieza knows about fusion in the anime and doesn't in the movie.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:42 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:37 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:20 am
So you admit you can't prove me wrong lmao.
Well, yeah. But that doesn't mean you're not wrong :wink:

Besides, you look like one of those guys. You know, "look at me, I'm the only one who understand the series, even if I'm wrong, I'm right", so trying to prove you wrong is like banging my head against a brick wall.

Example: I said SS God <> power of SS God = Godly ki. But you keep saying that SS God = power of SS God, because only in this way can your interpretation work.
You failed to prove anything I said was wrong.

Also, how the hell would "the power of SSG" not refer to the SSG transformation itself if SSG isn't necessary to use God ki? It's simple logic.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:46 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:36 pm
- He said at the end of BoG that he wanted to become SSG next time. Nothing there about the ritual.

- If Vegeta used the ritual to unlock SSG & SSB, then Gohan shouldn't have been surprised that Vegeta could go SSG & SSB at all, since Gohan would have been needed to perform the ritual to unlock those forms in the 1st place and thus already know about it (logic).
It's very, very heavily implied that Vegeta is referring specifically to the ritual in the context of the movie.

Image

And it seems like you haven't watched Resurrection F, because Gohan never expresses shock or comments on Vegeta using SSB. No one does in fact.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by SSJgogeto » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:51 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:42 pm
You failed to prove anything I said was wrong.

Also, how the hell would "the power of SSG" not refer to the SSG transformation itself if SSG isn't necessary to use God ki? It's simple logic.
And I probably couldn't because you never admit you're wrong.

Also, I really don't understand your "simple logic".

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:55 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:36 pm

- He said at the end of BoG that he wanted to become SSG next time. Nothing there about the ritual.
This isn't entirely true. Right at the end of the movie, Vegeta tells Goku that the next time will be his turn to turn SSG and to cooperate with him. How could you not assume he was talking about the ritual when he demanded his cooperation?

After that and seeing Vegeta using a higher form in RoF, you can only guess they helped him do the ritual.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:00 pm

The thing about Vegeta's line is not technically that he says "I'm going to be the one who gets Super Saiyan God next", because in this sense Sadala Elite would be surprisingly right, for once. The thing is what Vegeta says right after it: "you had better cooperate". What would Goku have to cooperate with? Playing video games? Fusion? Hide-and-seek?

That's what implies the ritual in the movie continuity. And unless someone provides sources (from the movie continuity) that contradicts this, this discussion is really pointless and the fact will remain that Vegeta got the form via training only in Toei's continuity.

EDIT: Koitsukai beat me to it.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by The Undying » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:26 pm

It's also worth noting that the manga's V Jump SS guide states SSG was initially obtained through the ritual, but both Goku and Vegeta managed to transform on their own after the events of BoG.

With that, we can safely infer that the manga is largely in the same boat as the anime. The movies are less clear on that front, but as others have said, Vegeta plainly suggested he was planning to use the ritual method at the end of BoG.
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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:47 pm

Vegeta just brute forced his way to becoming a Super Saiyan God, much like he did with Super Saiyan in the past.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:51 pm

The Undying wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:26 pm
It's also worth noting that the manga's V Jump SS guide states SSG was initially obtained through the ritual, but both Goku and Vegeta managed to transform on their own after the events of BoG.

With that, we can safely infer that the manga is largely in the same boat as the anime. The movies are less clear on that front, but as others have said, Vegeta plainly suggested he was planning to use the ritual method at the end of BoG.
Ehh VJump most likely just took that plot point from the anime. It's not really anymore canonical than anything else VJump uses to promote DBS. Unless it's said in some interview with or written into the story by Toriyama/Toyotaro, there's nothing wrong with ignoring those guides or statements.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by The Undying » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:59 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:51 pm
Ehh VJump most likely just took that plot point from the anime.
Maybe, but my point is the manga has some ancillary material to support the idea. The story itself will likely never divulge what went down, so there's not much else to go on.

Also, the manga's BoG arc does mention that the ritual method is temporary.
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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:23 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:00 pm
because in this sense Sadala Elite would be surprisingly right, for once.

EDIT: Koitsukai beat me to it.
When have I been wrong before? Any proof?

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:24 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:51 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:42 pm
You failed to prove anything I said was wrong.

Also, how the hell would "the power of SSG" not refer to the SSG transformation itself if SSG isn't necessary to use God ki? It's simple logic.
And I probably couldn't because you never admit you're wrong.

Also, I really don't understand your "simple logic".
You claimed I was wrong. The burden of proof is on you to prove it.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:26 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:46 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:36 pm
- He said at the end of BoG that he wanted to become SSG next time. Nothing there about the ritual.

- If Vegeta used the ritual to unlock SSG & SSB, then Gohan shouldn't have been surprised that Vegeta could go SSG & SSB at all, since Gohan would have been needed to perform the ritual to unlock those forms in the 1st place and thus already know about it (logic).
It's very, very heavily implied that Vegeta is referring specifically to the ritual in the context of the movie.

Image

And it seems like you haven't watched Resurrection F, because Gohan never expresses shock or comments on Vegeta using SSB. No one does in fact.
Literally none of the Z fighters besides Goku in the RoF movie ever have any dialogue to suggest that they already knew Vegeta attained godhood before he revealed it.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:46 pm

The Undying wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:26 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:54 pm
Do you have any scan\reference\proof that "Power of a Super Saiyan God" and "God Ki" are different things?
2. In episodes 20 and 22, Goku and Vegeta explicitly tap into god ki (in their base forms) during training. Vegeta notes that it has an intense pressure, but there's no direct mention of god ki boosting his strength per se. Whis says that the exercise is to prevent them from alerting opponents. Either way, they can use that ki source without transforming.
Just a nitpicking, but the pressure emanating from God Ki is something external, that is, it is felt by people who are not using this type of Ki (at least this is how it was treated every time it was mentioned). So "there's no direct mention of God Ki boosting his strength" is not exactly correct because Vegeta was not using God Ki in this scene, probably just noticing the immense pressure from the divine room inside Whis' staff

But I agree with the rest. God Ki and "Super Saiyan God Ki" are definitely different things. Even in the movie continuity, Goku says that Blue is when a Saiyan obtains the "power of the SSG" and transforms into SSJ. SSG power is the power of a transformation, so anyway Vegeta would need to obtain the transformation itself to obtain this type of Ki (different from what I saw some people here talking about)

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