GT continuation

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GT continuation

Post by J. Williams » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:06 pm

I've tried to look up some information about whether or not GT is a continuation of the manga. Atsushi Maekawa mentions DBZ a lot in his interview, which, I'd assume, refers to the anime, yet Kōzō Morishita, Toriyama and Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru mention the original comic more than anything else. Is there anything that directly states whether GT is a continuation of the manga (or anime)? Or is this kind of left for your own interpretation?

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Re: GT continuation

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:30 am

I think it’s kind of a distinction without a difference, and points to their lack of particular care about “canonicity” and “continuity” (particularly at that time).

There was nothing else. All there was... was GT. And it was the official sequel. There was no real need to make any concrete, minutia-filled distinction over anything. It just was what it was.

(This is opposed to Dragon Ball Online, and TDC can probably chime in more on the specifics, but wasn’t the story there that they only got the rights to manga material and it was conceived therefore exclusively as a continuation of the manga and by that very nature replacing GT?)
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Re: GT continuation

Post by Jord » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:46 am

Since the last ep of Z has a preview for GT in the 'next episode' slot with (DBZ) Goku narrating and calling it a new adventure we can pretty much take it as a direct sequel to the anime at least.

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Re: GT continuation

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:32 pm

I guess you could say it is a continuation of the anime because that's all Toei could continue. There was no manga of GT or of DB at all anymore, and without explicitly saying it follows it, then it most definitely does not.

However, original anime and manga are pretty much the same, you could say there is at least a 95% match between them, so GT is more likely a continuation of the story itself rather than deviating exclusively from the manga.

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Re: GT continuation

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:26 pm

I agree with Mike on this, but for what it's worth, GT's most notable antagonist, Baby, was a member of a race that was a creation of the anime and from what I can remember, the Tsufuruians were never mentioned in the manga.
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Re: GT continuation

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:56 pm

That’s certainly true, but I guess you could also go down the rabbit hole of “Toriyama’s the one who gave the initial Tsufruian info for filler soooooooo” (which sure sounds similar to “lots of extra lore in Kakarot originally came from Toriyama soooooo”).

Then on the other hand you have other filler-only and movie-only characters that show up in stuff like the Super 17 arc sooooooo... 🤷🏻‍♂️

(That’s why I think it’s bit of an exercise in futility. It’s a sequel! To what? Stuff before it! What stuff? Whatever! 😂)
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Re: GT continuation

Post by KBABZ » Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:04 pm

I've always had an internal sorting method when it comes to stuff Toriyama has contributed over the years and how much that stuff is canon.

For example, Toriyama designed some of the elements for the Wedding Dress arc. Does that mean that arc is canon to the manga? In my opinion no: look at Bardock. For years it was figured that was as good as canon considering Toriyama liked the story and even included a cameo of the guy in his manga, but then Toriyama writes Dragon Ball - and all of a sudden that story isn't canon to the manga anymore and probably never was!

So with that in mind, while Toriyama did design some significant early elements used for GT (including the Tsufruians retroactively), that doesn't for me mean it's a sequel to the manga, only the anime. And in today's context, Dragon Ball Z specifically.

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Re: GT continuation

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:22 pm

Even Super doesn’t necessarily follow the manga continuity to a T. According to the anime, stuff like Ginyu swapping bodies with Bulma apparently still happened, while the manga has Goku mention Mt. Paozu, which is a Toei invention.

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Re: GT continuation

Post by KBABZ » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:17 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:22 pm
Even Super doesn’t necessarily follow the manga continuity to a T. According to the anime, stuff like Ginyu swapping bodies with Bulma apparently still happened, while the manga has Goku mention Mt. Paozu, which is a Toei invention.
Well here we get into my weird "continuity families" idea to do work that Toei doesn't concern itself with.

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Re: GT continuation

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:39 am

KBABZ wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:17 am
WittyUsername wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:22 pm
Even Super doesn’t necessarily follow the manga continuity to a T. According to the anime, stuff like Ginyu swapping bodies with Bulma apparently still happened, while the manga has Goku mention Mt. Paozu, which is a Toei invention.
Well here we get into my weird "continuity families" idea to do work that Toei doesn't concern itself with.
Super doesn’t really work as a follow up to Kai. The Bardock special is canon as far as Kai is concerned, as is that filler version of Hell that Toei came up with back in the day.

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Re: GT continuation

Post by KBABZ » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:59 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:39 am
Super doesn’t really work as a follow up to Kai.
How so? Outside of Yamcha playing baseball again I haven't heard of any major classic Z stuff that wasn't already in Kai.

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Re: GT continuation

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:45 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:39 am
The Bardock special is canon as far as Kai is concerned
Only in one scene at the very beginning, which could easily have happened in the timeline established by the Broly movie.
WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:39 am
as is that filler version of Hell that Toei came up with back in the day.
That filler version of hell is in both Kai and Super.
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Re: GT continuation

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:01 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:45 am
WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:39 am
The Bardock special is canon as far as Kai is concerned
Only in one scene at the very beginning, which could easily have happened in the timeline established by the Broly movie.
WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:39 am
as is that filler version of Hell that Toei came up with back in the day.
That filler version of hell is in both Kai and Super.
It definitely could not have happened in the Minus timeline. Goku’s revised backstory establishes that he was sent to Earth as a toddler by his parents to keep him safe. That conflicts with the Bardock special, where it was shown that he was sent to Earth as an infant specifically to conquer it.

Anyway, what do you mean about that filler Hell being in Super? The only time I ever recall Hell being shown there is when Freeza is there, and that version of Hell is significantly different from the one shown in Kai.

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Re: GT continuation

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:05 am

KBABZ wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:59 am
WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:39 am
Super doesn’t really work as a follow up to Kai.
How so? Outside of Yamcha playing baseball again I haven't heard of any major classic Z stuff that wasn't already in Kai.
As I said, the Bardock special and the scene where all those villains are in Toei’s Hell just don’t work with Super.

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Re: GT continuation

Post by KBABZ » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:11 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:01 am
It definitely could not have happened in the Minus timeline. Goku’s revised backstory establishes that he was sent to Earth as a toddler by his parents to keep him safe. That conflicts with the Bardock special, where it was shown that he was sent to Earth as an infant specifically to conquer it.
If you ignore the opening scene with the two operators, there's nothing really that contradicts what we see in the Broly movie. In that movie, we see brief glimpses of Bardock making his final stand against Frieza's attack, just as in the special. In Kai, we see a bit more of this, so for me it lines up fairly snugly.

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Re: GT continuation

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:29 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:11 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:01 am
It definitely could not have happened in the Minus timeline. Goku’s revised backstory establishes that he was sent to Earth as a toddler by his parents to keep him safe. That conflicts with the Bardock special, where it was shown that he was sent to Earth as an infant specifically to conquer it.
If you ignore the opening scene with the two operators, there's nothing really that contradicts what we see in the Broly movie. In that movie, we see brief glimpses of Bardock making his final stand against Frieza's attack, just as in the special. In Kai, we see a bit more of this, so for me it lines up fairly snugly.
It’s not just the scene with the operators. We see Goku in his space pod in Kai, where he’s clearly an infant who isn’t wearing any armor. You’d basically have to ignore that entire opening prologue in order to accept Super as a continuation of Kai.

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Re: GT continuation

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:18 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:01 am
It definitely could not have happened in the Minus timeline. Goku’s revised backstory establishes that he was sent to Earth as a toddler by his parents to keep him safe. That conflicts with the Bardock special, where it was shown that he was sent to Earth as an infant specifically to conquer it.
Sure. And Kai's presentation of the Bardock Special footage has dialogue that suggests this is basically the Minus version of events.

There are minor contradictions, but nothing worth fussing about. Dragon Ball's always been riddled with inconsistency. Best to just enjoy each story for what it is.
WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:01 am
Anyway, what do you mean about that filler Hell being in Super? The only time I ever recall Hell being shown there is when Freeza is there, and that version of Hell is significantly different from the one shown in Kai.
The one hell Freeza is in is entirely compatible with Kai's version; the Ogres could have easily put him there for whatever reason.

However, it is entirely NOT compatible with the manga, where the dead don't EVER have their bodies unless they're a special case like Goku. People like Freeza would then have their dead souls cleansed and reincarnated, like Kid Boo. ResF ignores this.
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Re: GT continuation

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:32 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:18 pm
The one hell Freeza is in is entirely compatible with Kai's version; the Ogres could have easily put him there for whatever reason.
But Freeza isn’t a cyborg when he’s in Hell in that filler scene. Plus, he shouldn’t be aware that Goku fought Majin Boo.

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Re: GT continuation

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:39 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:32 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:18 pm
The one hell Freeza is in is entirely compatible with Kai's version; the Ogres could have easily put him there for whatever reason.
But Freeza isn’t a cyborg when he’s in Hell in that filler scene.
He shouldn't have his body AT ALL in the manga, though. He shouldn't even EXIST; his body should have been left in the mortal realm, on earth, and his soul should have been cleansed and reincarnated. And this isn't a minor thing, either! It's the subject of a key moment between Piccolo and Vegeta before Vegeta makes the big sacrifice in the Boo arc.
WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:32 pm
Plus, he shouldn’t be aware that Goku fought Majin Boo.
Quite a minor quibble, if you ask me.
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Re: GT continuation

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:52 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:39 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:32 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:18 pm
The one hell Freeza is in is entirely compatible with Kai's version; the Ogres could have easily put him there for whatever reason.
But Freeza isn’t a cyborg when he’s in Hell in that filler scene.
He shouldn't have his body AT ALL in the manga, though. He shouldn't even EXIST; his body should have been left in the mortal realm, on earth, and his soul should have been cleansed and reincarnated. And this isn't a minor thing, either! It's the subject of a key moment between Piccolo and Vegeta before Vegeta makes the big sacrifice in the Boo arc.
WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:32 pm
Plus, he shouldn’t be aware that Goku fought Majin Boo.
Quite a minor quibble, if you ask me.
I believe it was stated in the Universe Survival arc that Freeza was stuck in Hell because he refused to allow his soul to be purified. As for him keeping his body, yeah, I don’t know how that’s supposed to be explained. It’s even more confusing when Freeza gets wished back to life, and his body is in pieces like it was before Trunks vaporized him.

Still, his soul is presented as a cyborg before he gets revived, so there’s that.

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