Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
They are not natural as in non-biological. Kaioken is a technique not a transformation, and UI is something that transcends the self
How is Ultra Instinct non-biological? The power Goku uses in that form comes from himself. Whether or not UI "transcends the self" is irrelevant. You're pulling weird headcanons out your ass to justify the idea that fusions by default are stronger than the user's strongest form. Please,
please pull up some actual evidence of that statistic. At least pull up a Daizenshuu statement or anime quote or
something that supports your argument, because you're saying all this stuff to backup that fusion idea with 0 weight or proof behind it.
Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
SSB doesn't have the same stamina problem in the anime as it does in the manga
Well, first of all, you're outright wrong on Blue's stamina issue being exclusive not being in the anime, if you read my post and bothered to take a 5 second google.
This scene was from the tournament to explain why Goku wasn't using Super Saiyan Blue at that time. It's also brought up later, when Super Saiyan God comes back. So, what gives? Are you going to tell me Whis is wrong now? Please, tell me again that Goku just used Blue against Kale because? I don't know? Some reason you pulled out your ass instead of an actual statement in the series?
Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
and you failed yo address the main point that Goku didn't receive any major damage from Berzerk Kale
Since when was that a main point? And Kale was tossing Goku around ragged and charged through his Kamehameha? The
main point was that Whis' statement confirmed that Goku wouldn't have used Super Saiyan Blue unless he had to.
Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:03 am
Yet Mastered Berzerk/SSJ2 Kale in so.113 explicitly stated/shown as a power increase compared to Berzerk, which SSJ2 Goku could hold off in that same episode.
Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
If you accept that SSB Goku wasn't going all out against Berzerk Kale then it isn't a contradiction at all, simple
It's a contradiction either way, because Whis says Goku was pacing himself and not using Super Saiyan Blue unless necessary. But I guess you didn't watch the entire arc or something, because you don't seem to know (and outright deny) that that was a thing.
Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
Berzerk Kale was seen as threat in the anime mostly because she was outta control, not so much because of strength (the fact that SSJ2 Goku could hold her off in ep.113 proves that
Which again, goes against Whis' statement on Goku's usage of Blue in the tournament.
Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
Completely missed the point of the argument lmao
No one is going to understand the point of your argument if you're tossing invalid statements inside it. You didn't even respond with what the point of your argument was.
Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
You just contradicted your earlier paragraph about the promotional manga.
??? When? I said most promotional content makes it into the volumes. Resurrection F's promotional manga didn't because it's not considered part of the Super manga. You keep making vague statements about how I "missed the point" or "contradicted myself" and you don't explain your reasoning at all. So why should I take you seriously?
Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
They were wrong for the same reason, because Beerus never said in any version that Goku absorbed the form itself
Absorbing the strength of the form, followed by the form not appearing for nearly 100 episodes gives a pretty clear vision of what was originally intended to be the case.
If you say so lol
Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
Where's the contradiction? Source?
It's various little things throughout Super. Base form Goku/Vegeta having any level of trouble with opponents who end up being dealt with by far less powerful people in Super, like the sniper that ended up being taken out by Tien. Or Goku needing to use any transformation against Trunks, who only had access to SS2 and was never said to have another power-up (like Gohan's justification) until midway through the arc. You can disagree, but these are inconsistencies for some people.
Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
False. You're forgetting how Base Goku early in the ToP arc was able to match Fit Buu (the strongest Buu ever). That wouldn't be possible if "Saiyan-Beyond God" wasnt a thing anymore
Sure, and you have a point there, but Buu's strength since his fission from Kid Buu has been a point of vagueness anyhow. You're definitely pulling "strongest Buu ever" out your ass if you think Buu was stronger than when he absorbed Ultimate Gohan though.
Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
The only you think it was retconned is that you don't like the idea that 90% of the ToP fodder would solo Z by scaling
Since I'm getting to that point later, I may as well point out that
this is an ad hominem.
Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
That's literally the same explanation, you're argument sounds so dumb lol
Saying those explanations are the same thing is saying "Saiyan Beyond God" is the same thing as Super Saiyan God. But ok if you want to say
I'm the one who's dumb without reading back what the image actually says, you're free to do so.
Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
You failed to point out any Ad hominems in my previous post.
Well if you want me to do it now, this is the ad hominem statement I was referring to in my previous post.
Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:39 pm
Your whole view seem to be based on you simply not liking the idea of base Goku/Vegeta being that strong at all and being in denial, without any real logic or proof.[/b]
So, ultimately, I don't think you actually paid attention when watching Dragon Ball Super (if you did you would address Whis' statements in the tournament, which you still haven't).
In addition to that, you ignore any valid points or concerns brought up in an argument to tout your personal, baseless headcanons as facts, and you attempt to discourage and shutdown any valid argument with "You only think this way because you
want it to be this way." Mind you
I'M the one pulling up quotes, using episodes, statements and pulling up
multiple fight examples to justify my arguments. Your only response is and continues to be "You're wrong because I say it is." to justify the statement "base form fusions are always stronger than the strongest form" when as far as I can tell, that was
never stated in
any medium. Please, provide some evidence that
that statement has any backing, and isn't just something
you wish is true.