"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[The Undying]

Discussion of that and his usual "what-ifs" usually end up here due to his role as DBS manga author.

I would agree with this. Toyotaro's what-if stuff isn't typically significant enough to warrant its own threads, and I don't see anything wrong with discussing it here. It'd be awfully monotonous having to create a new topic every time he posts some random drawing.

If the forum staff still thinks it's inappropriate despite that, I'll stop posting about it.

Yeah, I am also not a fan of the Saiyan revisionist history...

Depends on the content. Episode of Bardock was hilariously revisionist, but Broly struck that balance between making Bardock a distinct character and retaining his status as a low-class Saiyan while also playing into the movie's larger theme of fatherhood. I think it did an excellent job on that front.

One of my biggest criticisms of the original TV special is that it didn't do enough to make Bardock stand out as his own person. If we're following the journey of a character, ultimately we want to be invested in that character. That's why I favor his modern portrayal.

Toyotaro's rendition here shows a sort of symbolic comeuppance from Bardock through his son, which is a message the TV special conveyed. Doesn't seem to be much more to it than that.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

We all know the pattern with dragon ball antagonists. I have the strangest feeling this isn't Moro's final form...I can't be the only one thinking Moro is going to have some last stage near impossible to kill final form in case this form fails?

[Grand Marshal 1]

We all know the pattern with dragon ball antagonists. I have the strangest feeling this isn't Moro's final form...I can't be the only one thinking Moro is going to have some last stage near impossible to kill final form in case this form fails?

There is an issue however.

His original magic was restored in Namek. His original power was at his prime. With 7-3 being a backup plan, having both his own and Moro's emergency power tank. 7-Moro-3 is as perfect as he can currently be.

Anything after this would have no established value since Moro has drained all sources known to the viewer to attain this power.

Unless if they expand on the Sealing Technique and how he may be able to recall some of that power by, I don't know, killing the Daikaioshin inside Buu.

Other than that, I can't see anything else for him to draw power from (assuming that he ofc doesn't touch everyone's necks)

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

We all know the pattern with dragon ball antagonists. I have the strangest feeling this isn't Moro's final form...I can't be the only one thinking Moro is going to have some last stage near impossible to kill final form in case this form fails?

There is an issue however.

His original magic was restored in Namek. His original power was at his prime. With 7-3 being a backup plan, having both his own and Moro's emergency power tank. 7-Moro-3 is as perfect as he can currently be.

Anything after this would have no established value since Moro has drained all sources known to the viewer to attain this power.

Unless if they expand on the Sealing Technique and how he may be able to recall some of that power by, I don't know, killing the Daikaioshin inside Buu.

Other than that, I can't see anything else for him to draw power from (assuming that he ofc doesn't touch everyone's necks)

That may be true, but that won't stop the writers from making some sort of scenario to fuck everyone over. Everytime it looks like the villian is on the ropes, they'll pull something to make them go full on 'ULTIMATE FINAL FORM BOSS' on everyone.(Zamasu became the fucking multiverse/made endless clones of himself depending on interpretation upon getting sliced, Cell legit revived himself by sheer luck of a single cell due to his genetics) Moro might pull some bs magic to prevent himself from dying or at least survive.

This tends to happen whenever it looks like they actually have a chance at killing the antagonist, as when the dust clears it'll look like Moro's dead only for something to show up to screw them over.

[Grand Marshal 1]

We all know the pattern with dragon ball antagonists. I have the strangest feeling this isn't Moro's final form...I can't be the only one thinking Moro is going to have some last stage near impossible to kill final form in case this form fails?

There is an issue however.

His original magic was restored in Namek. His original power was at his prime. With 7-3 being a backup plan, having both his own and Moro's emergency power tank. 7-Moro-3 is as perfect as he can currently be.

Anything after this would have no established value since Moro has drained all sources known to the viewer to attain this power.

Unless if they expand on the Sealing Technique and how he may be able to recall some of that power by, I don't know, killing the Daikaioshin inside Buu.

Other than that, I can't see anything else for him to draw power from (assuming that he ofc doesn't touch everyone's necks)

That may be true, but that won't stop the writers from making some sort of scenario to fuck everyone over. Everytime it looks like the villian is on the ropes, they'll pull something to make them go full on 'ULTIMATE FINAL FORM BOSS' on everyone.(Zamasu became the fucking multiverse/made endless clones of himself depending on interpretation, Cell legit revived himself by sheer luck of a single cell) Moro might pull some bs magic to prevent himself from dying or at least survive.

This tends to happen whenever it looks like they actually have a chance at killing the antagonist, as when the dust clears it'll look like Moro's dead only for something to show up.

That is true. No villain was ever gone for good. Perhaps this will be a definitive victory?

I mean, if they think that we need a villain comeback shocking moment for the stakes to rise and the fight to continue, they may be wrong imo.

Just make this fight very interesting, raise the stakes and after an actually long final battle, have them win via cooperation and that's it.

Infinite Zamasu is the prime example of this concept turning bad. Super Perfect Cell served a purpose, in establishing Gohan as the strongest, the earth's protector. Zamasu on the other hand... Merely a power showcase for Zeno.

Moro feels unique and shouldn't be a villain that serves no purpose. The universe has to change after he leaves the fray. So I want to heroes to take this one. It's not like we didn't have 2 matches already before the final battle...

[TKA]

Toriyama ? he's the main one holding this franchise back. As far as I can see, his contribution should've ended with BOG.

Complete nonsense.

Dragonball had been without Toriyama since the manga ended and until Battle of Gods. During that time, all they were able to create is derivative drivel and their most creative ideas only amounted to “WHAT IF THIS CHARACTER BECAME A SUPER SAIYAN 3?!?!?!”

Toriyama is a boon.

But Toriyama doesn’t see his work as profound so he probably just lets Toei do whatever it wants with Dragonball.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

There is an issue however.

His original magic was restored in Namek. His original power was at his prime. With 7-3 being a backup plan, having both his own and Moro's emergency power tank. 7-Moro-3 is as perfect as he can currently be.

Anything after this would have no established value since Moro has drained all sources known to the viewer to attain this power.

Unless if they expand on the Sealing Technique and how he may be able to recall some of that power by, I don't know, killing the Daikaioshin inside Buu.

Other than that, I can't see anything else for him to draw power from (assuming that he ofc doesn't touch everyone's necks)

That may be true, but that won't stop the writers from making some sort of scenario to fuck everyone over. Everytime it looks like the villian is on the ropes, they'll pull something to make them go full on 'ULTIMATE FINAL FORM BOSS' on everyone.(Zamasu became the fucking multiverse/made endless clones of himself depending on interpretation, Cell legit revived himself by sheer luck of a single cell) Moro might pull some bs magic to prevent himself from dying or at least survive.

This tends to happen whenever it looks like they actually have a chance at killing the antagonist, as when the dust clears it'll look like Moro's dead only for something to show up.

That is true. No villain was ever gone for good. Perhaps this will be a definitive victory?

I mean, if they think that we need a villain comeback shocking moment for the stakes to rise and the fight to continue, they may be wrong imo.

Just make this fight very interesting, raise the stakes and after an actually long final battle, have them win via cooperation and that's it.

Infinite Zamasu is the prime example of this concept turning bad. Super Perfect Cell served a purpose, in establishing Gohan as the strongest, the earth's protector. Zamasu on the other hand... Merely a power showcase for Zeno.

Moro feels unique and shouldn't be a villain that serves no purpose. The universe has to change after he leaves the fray. So I want to heroes to take this one. It's not like we didn't have 2 matches already before the final battle...

Definitive victory? Dragon ball? That's funny.

But seriously, I have the strangest feeling they'll find a way to somehow make sure Moro isn't able to stopped, at least not by the Z fighters when they actually stand a chance. Something's telling me that Moro has some BS final form/secret power that will end up screwing everyone over at the last possible second.

Have the feeling after the power of friendship/cooperation, the smoke will clear and the Z fighters will cheer...only for Moro to show up through the power of the asspull and watch as the writers create some nonsense for why Moro could survive such an event when there was no previous evidence that he could earlier in the series.

Honestly, they just wanted to show off how OP Zeno was, which they did given he legit nuked the multiverse. It gave that Zeno button a purpose I guess. Cell had a reason for his revival, but I have the feeling Moro is going to pull some last minute nonsense of 'THIS ISN"T MY FINAL FORM' when the Z fighters look like they've won the battle.

After all, I have the feeling they won't that little tidbit of 'Angels can die by intervening' stuff go to waste..at least I don't think they will. If they do, at least have it be in an unpredictable fashion...and a well written one.

[Matches Malone]

Complete nonsense.

Dragonball had been without Toriyama since the manga ended and until Battle of Gods. During that time, all they were able to create is derivative drivel and their most creative ideas only amounted to “WHAT IF THIS CHARACTER BECAME A SUPER SAIYAN 3?!?!?!”

If we're going to talk about creativity, no one's been less creative during this revival than Toriyama. Apart from BOG, Minus was a complete joke, RF added less to the overall story than some of the older Z movies, the 2 tournaments we got were as bare bones as they could get, the Zamasu arc never reached its full potential due to Toriyama not willing to take it there, and Broly's only saving grace is its production value.

I don't completely blame Toriyama for the creatively bankrupt position the franchise is currently in, but he's definitely playing a major role in it continuing due to his unwillingness to step down as the head writer.

[emperior]

Complete nonsense.

Dragonball had been without Toriyama since the manga ended and until Battle of Gods. During that time, all they were able to create is derivative drivel and their most creative ideas only amounted to “WHAT IF THIS CHARACTER BECAME A SUPER SAIYAN 3?!?!?!”

If we're going to talk about creativity, no one's been less creative during this revival than Toriyama. Apart from BOG, Minus was a complete joke, RF added less to the overall story than some of the older Z movies, the 2 tournaments we got were as bare bones as they could get, the Zamasu arc never reached its full potential due to Toriyama not willing to take it there, and Broly's only saving grace is its production value.

I don't completely blame Toriyama for the creatively bankrupt position the franchise is currently in, but he's definitely playing a major role in it continuing due to his unwillingness to step down as the head writer.

Resurrection F may not be the best movie ever but to say it didn’t add to the story is wrong considering it at least explored the flaws Goku and Vegeta have and tried to do something with them.
It was also saved from Freeza being brought back to life again which retroactively made RoF worth it in my opinion.

Honestly all of Toriyama’s contributions to modern Dragon Ball range from “okay” to “amazing” ideas.
He’s like the only one actually saving modern DB from mediocrity.

[Matches Malone]

Resurrection F may not be the best movie ever but to say it didn’t add to the story is very wrong.

Honestly all of Toriyama’s contributions to modern Dragon Ball range from “okay” to “amazing” ideas.

He’s like the only one actually saving modern DB from mediocrity.

What did it add ? I'm not talking about new forms, as that's obvious, but rather character development, lore building, etc.

GT also had "amazing" ideas, but that doesn't change the fact that they were mostly poorly executed, which is an issue Toriyama's ideas have in common with.

Apart from BOG, DB's revival is as mediocre as a revival can get, mostly thanks to Toriyama. BOG should've been his only contribution, as he should've passed the torch to someone who actually had stories worth telling, not just bare notes on a piece of gum wrap.

[The Undying]

Battle of Gods and Broly are easily the best stories in all of modern Dragon Ball. It's no coincidence that Toriyama wrote them.

The problem is that he's simply not as invested in Super as he should be.

[Noitsnothim]

Battle of Gods and Broly are easily the best stories in all of modern Dragon Ball. It's no coincidence that Toriyama wrote them.

The problem is that he's simply not as invested in Super as he should be.

BOG and Broly are the best stories in all of Super Period (ToP comes third and Future Trunks arc is 5th) I'm speaking on behalf of the manga not the anime

[Matches Malone]

Battle of Gods and Broly are easily the best stories in all of modern Dragon Ball. It's no coincidence that Toriyama wrote them.

BOG is a masterpiece, no arguments there, but Broly ? It included minus, one of the worst things to have the DB name, it turned Freeza into a joke, Broly's character was very inconsistent, Goku and Vegeta didn't get any character development, and the final third of the movie was just one big fight. I don't see how it comes anywhere near BOG, much less be considered the best. The only thing it has going for it is its production value. Why even give Toriyama so much credit for it when a big part of it was taken from 3 older stories ?

[TKA]

People tend to place too much emphasis on things being new, rather than things being well-executed. I know that I prefer new experiences to revisiting old ones, hence why I hate Disney's Star Wars, or Marvel movies. But in this overemphasis of "new" we tend to ignore the well-constructed, and well-executed stories that don't really re-invent the wheel, so to speak.

I would say that's for good reason. They don't spark interest because nobody really is enamored with seeing just a very well-told story when there are so many; people want something new. But that's in general. Within the realm of Dragonball, new is almost always synonymous with "bad" (at least in my eyes).

Again, when Toriyama isn't involved, every new thing introduced is some super villain from Planet X that looks like some Cell or Frieza clone, or some character gets a new transformation. It's almost always bad. With Toriyama, even when he isn't introducing new stuff (and 99% of the time he is), he's exploring the old things in ways no other writer would.

As an example, nothing about the Future Trunks arc in Super is new. We've seen Kaioshin, we've seen the future, and we've seen Goku get his body stolen before. What Toriyama did within that framework is establish how Kaioshin are trained, explained the mechanics of why Trunks can always come to this timeline specifically, further demystify "gods" in this franchise, among other things.

So no, I won't even entertain the idea that Toriyama is bad for Dragonball. Fuck, I won't even entertain the idea that his return isn't the absolute best thing that's happened to Dragonball since the manga ended. We've seen what Dragonball looks like without him, and it's as awful as Disney's Star Wars. (Can you tell I hate Disney yet?)

[Grand Marshal 1]

We've seen what Dragonball looks like without him, and it's as awful as Disney's Star Wars. (Can you tell I hate Disney yet?)

Ik this is DragonBall, but I must say that I'm glad we haven't received any sequel trilogy level of disasters for DB..... Yet...

TLJ and TROS (okay TFA was always mediocre for me even as a copy of ANH) are just on a level of bad on their own.

I suppose people just don't know what 'bad' or 'good' truly is and base it all on subjective views.

[The Undying]

BOG is a masterpiece, no arguments there, but Broly ?

Why even give Toriyama so much credit for it when a big part of it was taken from 3 older stories ?

Yes, Broly. That Broly.

You can read my thoughts on the film here, which addresses pretty much every complaint you listed.

I give Toriyama credit because he understands his characters, he understands DB's tone, he understands themes, he understands how to tweak older ideas and present them in new and compelling ways. But mostly, he just understands Dragon Ball. There hasn't been a single writer or artist (inside the franchise and out) in the gap between the end of the manga and the beginning of his return in the 2010's that managed to create anything slightly resembling Dragon Ball.

Even Super rarely resembles it as much as it should, but it comes closer than anything else. My enjoyment of the manga over the anime, for example, likely comes down to Toriyama having more direct involvement in that medium prior to this current arc.

None of this is coincidental. The creator fundamentally gets his creations.

[TheNingen]

Battle of Gods and Broly are easily the best stories in all of modern Dragon Ball. It's no coincidence that Toriyama wrote them.

BOG is a masterpiece, no arguments there, but Broly ? It included minus, one of the worst things to have the DB name, it turned Freeza into a joke, Broly's character was very inconsistent, Goku and Vegeta didn't get any character development, and the final third of the movie was just one big fight. I don't see how it comes anywhere near BOG, much less be considered the best. The only thing it has going for it is its production value. Why even give Toriyama so much credit for it when a big part of it was taken from 3 older stories ?

Sorry. Have to disagree here. BoG is great, but a masterpiece it is not. Especially in the extended edition, it is way too bloated and that bloat messes with the pacing. So many of the gags could have been taken out since most of them add nothing to the overall story. It's great to see all the characters again and Beerus and Whis are flat out perfect, but let's not put BoG on this pedestal when it has its own issues and problems going about it. Great move. Not a masterpiece.

Also....Freeza was a joke character before Broly was even a thing. Trunks treated Freeza like a child. He was a glorified tsundere cheerleader during Goku's fight with Kid Buu. Even the movies like Fusion Reborn treat Freeza with little to no respect. Let's not pretend these are things Super started. Because if you've been paying attention to the series, you'll find out many of these start before Super.

Also...Broly isn't inconsistent. He's fierce and protective and his power leads to his mental state completely collapsing while lacking in social graces. He's pretty consistent throughout the movie. Broly also wasn't Goku and Vegeta's movie. Broly was the true protag. They don't need development there.

[Matches Malone]

Sorry. Have to disagree here. BoG is great, but a masterpiece it is not. Especially in the extended edition, it is way too bloated and that bloat messes with the pacing. So many of the gags could have been taken out since most of them add nothing to the overall story.

Freeza was a joke character before Broly was even a thing. Trunks treated Freeza like a child. He was a glorified tsundere cheerleader during Goku's fight with Kid Buu. Even the movies like Fusion Reborn treat Freeza with little to no respect. Let's not pretend these are things Super started. Because if you've been paying attention to the series, you'll find out many of these start before Super.

Also...Broly isn't inconsistent. He's fierce and protective and his power leads to his mental state completely collapsing while lacking in social graces. He's pretty consistent throughout the movie.

Broly also wasn't Goku and Vegeta's movie. Broly was the true protag. They don't need development there.

The Pilaf gang should've been removed, I'll give you that, but that's honestly the only negative I can think of. That may be enough to take away from what the movie does, which is fine, but it doesn't for me.

I agree he was treated bad before RF, but the difference is that most of those were Toei only moments. When it comes to his fight with Trunks, I don't think it ruined his character because he already just got a massive battle on Namek. Would it have been a good idea to give him yet another big fight ?

In one scene Broly is telling us how he hates fighting, the very next he attacks Goku and Vegeta without question. That's as inconsistent as it can get.

It was according to the marketing, "3 destinies come together, Goku, Vegeta, Broly". Apart from that, Goku and Vegeta are the 2 faces of the movie and the overall franchise, so I expect even a little development. I don't see how that would take anything away from Broly's, they can do both.

[TKA]

Ik this is DragonBall, but I must say that I'm glad we haven't received any sequel trilogy level of disasters for DB..... Yet...

TLJ and TROS (okay TFA was always mediocre for me even as a copy of ANH) are just on a level of bad on their own.

I suppose people just don't know what 'bad' or 'good' truly is and base it all on subjective views.

I would argue GT, every video game-original plot, and extra videos and so on have all been just as bad as those. The only thing that I feel was fun during all that was the Tarble special, which we know Toriyama was involved in. I would feel depressed whenever Dragonball did anything during that period, because I knew it would be disappointing.

Also, keep in mind that "good" and "bad" are not objective terms to any degree when it comes to art.

[TheNingen]

The Pilaf gang should've been removed, I'll give you that, but that's honestly the only negative I can think of. That may be enough to take away from what the movie does, which is fine, but it doesn't for me.

I agree he was treated bad before RF, but the difference is that most of those were Toei only moments. When it comes to his fight with Trunks, I don't think it ruined his character because he already just got a massive battle on Namek. Would it have been a good idea to give him yet another big fight ?

In one scene Broly is telling us how he hates fighting, the very next he attacks Goku and Vegeta without question. That's as inconsistent as it can get.

It was according to the marketing, "3 destinies come together, Goku, Vegeta, Broly". Apart from that, Goku and Vegeta are the 2 faces of the movie and the overall franchise, so I expect even a little development. I don't see how that would take anything away from Broly's, they can do both.

I think it would have been better to not bring him back at all after Namek. There's nothing King Cold or his fight with Trunks do for the narrative besides establish there's another Super Saiyan now.

Broly does hate fighting. But we're also told via the narrative he's fiercely loyal to his father and was trained for the sole purpose of revenge. He is reacting to his father's strong emotions and fights via the will of his father, not his own. There's no inconsistencies there.

We're seeing the manga attempt to develop Vegeta right now, and the hamfisted and forced way its being done isn't resonating with a lot of the fanbase. There isn't much you can do with both of them at this point. As I've said, the most interesting thing that Super has done with Goku thus far is put him into a more mentor position that's interested in training other people which sets him up for his arc with Uub. And that's a Toei thing. Toyataro doesn't seem interested in that angle.