Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

[p-hyvo]

For me, I would say Gogeta would need SSJ3 to win but with it, he stomps. SSJ2 could fight back against Buutenks but SSJ3 is needed to finish the fight. As I said though, Gogeta would win comfortably

Buutenks for me equals like 155B

I like Metamoran fusion being 20X weakest person. So my Gogeta would be 20X63,200,00.
Base Gogeta= 1,264,000,000
SSJ1= 63,200,000,000
SSJ2= 126,400,000,000
SSJ3= 505,600,000,000

But again, just my interpretation. However, this is all retconned since Gogeta was advanced to Vegito's equal

That take on the multiplier is completely wrong.
In rack incarnation of the fusion we saw how the result was superior to the strongest form that both the fusees have.
Base Gotenks definitely seemed stronger than ssj Goten and trunks together from day one, then trained and got even stronger, and in dbs broly base gogeta was definitely above ssb Goku in power considering how he fought ssj broly

[Mad Swami]

For me, I would say Gogeta would need SSJ3 to win but with it, he stomps. SSJ2 could fight back against Buutenks but SSJ3 is needed to finish the fight. As I said though, Gogeta would win comfortably

Buutenks for me equals like 155B

I like Metamoran fusion being 20X weakest person. So my Gogeta would be 20X63,200,00.
Base Gogeta= 1,264,000,000
SSJ1= 63,200,000,000
SSJ2= 126,400,000,000
SSJ3= 505,600,000,000

But again, just my interpretation. However, this is all retconned since Gogeta was advanced to Vegito's equal

That take on the multiplier is completely wrong.
In rack incarnation of the fusion we saw how the result was superior to the strongest form that both the fusees have.
Base Gotenks definitely seemed stronger than ssj Goten and trunks together from day one, then trained and got even stronger, and in dbs broly base gogeta was definitely above ssb Goku in power considering how he fought ssj broly

Well DBS Broly completely changes Metamoran fusion. Base Gotenks has no real feats or anything. His base being stronger than Frieza and King Cold I think is enough to be impressive seeing as no one elses base in the Buu saga was. At least IMO

[p-hyvo]

For me, I would say Gogeta would need SSJ3 to win but with it, he stomps. SSJ2 could fight back against Buutenks but SSJ3 is needed to finish the fight. As I said though, Gogeta would win comfortably

Buutenks for me equals like 155B

I like Metamoran fusion being 20X weakest person. So my Gogeta would be 20X63,200,00.
Base Gogeta= 1,264,000,000
SSJ1= 63,200,000,000
SSJ2= 126,400,000,000
SSJ3= 505,600,000,000

But again, just my interpretation. However, this is all retconned since Gogeta was advanced to Vegito's equal

That take on the multiplier is completely wrong.
In rack incarnation of the fusion we saw how the result was superior to the strongest form that both the fusees have.
Base Gotenks definitely seemed stronger than ssj Goten and trunks together from day one, then trained and got even stronger, and in dbs broly base gogeta was definitely above ssb Goku in power considering how he fought ssj broly

Well DBS Broly completely changes Metamoran fusion. Base Gotenks has no real feats or anything. His base being stronger than Frieza and King Cold I think is enough to be impressive seeing as no one elses base in the Buu saga was. At least IMO

Well, the result changes with the parts so we can say that dbs didn't change the fusion at all. The only difference is that in z fusion scales by ssj or ssj2, while in dbs from ssb. The extent on which it powers up on the strongest form is the same, the difference is the form to work with.

And well, base gotenks really do have a feat. He didn't fight, but seeing how piccolo reacts first to the ssj kids and then to base gotenks leaves no doubt at all. He has to be stronger than them.

Oh yes, I'm not even considering that base Goten and trunks can put up a fight with 18, and she most likely wasn't suppressed since nothing implies it

[Mad Swami]

That take on the multiplier is completely wrong.
In rack incarnation of the fusion we saw how the result was superior to the strongest form that both the fusees have.
Base Gotenks definitely seemed stronger than ssj Goten and trunks together from day one, then trained and got even stronger, and in dbs broly base gogeta was definitely above ssb Goku in power considering how he fought ssj broly

Well DBS Broly completely changes Metamoran fusion. Base Gotenks has no real feats or anything. His base being stronger than Frieza and King Cold I think is enough to be impressive seeing as no one elses base in the Buu saga was. At least IMO

Well, the result changes with the parts so we can say that dbs didn't change the fusion at all. The only difference is that in z fusion scales by ssj or ssj2, while in dbs from ssb. The extent on which it powers up on the strongest form is the same, the difference is the form to work with.

And well, base gotenks really do have a feat. He didn't fight, but seeing how piccolo reacts first to the ssj kids and then to base gotenks leaves no doubt at all. He has to be stronger than them.

Oh yes, I'm not even considering that base Goten and trunks can put up a fight with 18, and she most likely wasn't suppressed since nothing implies it

Goten and Trunks go SSJ to fight 18.


Also, Metamoran was retconned to be just like Potara so it was changed. The 20Xweaker person isn't confirmed but I personally think it works. Gotenks base being greater than the boys SSJ is fair but I think it's fine if he isn't. Piccolo's reaction could be based more off of how strong Gotenks would be as an SSJ which would be greater than any SSJ2 in my book

[p-hyvo]

Well DBS Broly completely changes Metamoran fusion. Base Gotenks has no real feats or anything. His base being stronger than Frieza and King Cold I think is enough to be impressive seeing as no one elses base in the Buu saga was. At least IMO

Well, the result changes with the parts so we can say that dbs didn't change the fusion at all. The only difference is that in z fusion scales by ssj or ssj2, while in dbs from ssb. The extent on which it powers up on the strongest form is the same, the difference is the form to work with.

And well, base gotenks really do have a feat. He didn't fight, but seeing how piccolo reacts first to the ssj kids and then to base gotenks leaves no doubt at all. He has to be stronger than them.

Oh yes, I'm not even considering that base Goten and trunks can put up a fight with 18, and she most likely wasn't suppressed since nothing implies it

Goten and Trunks go SSJ to fight 18.


Also, Metamoran was retconned to be just like Potara so it was changed. The 20Xweaker person isn't confirmed but I personally think it works. Gotenks base being greater than the boys SSJ is fair but I think it's fine if he isn't. Piccolo's reaction could be based more off of how strong Gotenks would be as an SSJ which would be greater than any SSJ2 in my book

They go ssj just to win, infact by shooting a suppressed blast the scare the shit out of 18, making suppressed ssj Goten and trunks>>>18

Plus , some pages prior, we can see mighty mask (trunks basically) hold is own against 18, while still in base. No retcon on sight for fusions, as I said the multiplier is the same in theory but changes in practical means because the form it scales from changes. Base fusion is always superior to the strongest form in common to the parts in some way, for gotenks as for gogeta in dbs.
Maybe a numerical example will do :

Base 1
Ssj 50
Base fusion 125 (2,5x strongest form)

Dbs
Base 1
Ssb 50'000
Base fusion 125'000

Same multiplier, just changes what it scales from

The reaction of piccolo obviously was on what he sees, not on what he hypotizes. That would make no sense, the reaction is on base gotenks.
Also, ssj gotenks pre rosat is confirmed being weaker than ssj2 tier in daizenshuu. There is said that gotenks surpassed Vegeta (so surpassed ssj2 in power) only after the training

[Mad Swami]

Well, the result changes with the parts so we can say that dbs didn't change the fusion at all. The only difference is that in z fusion scales by ssj or ssj2, while in dbs from ssb. The extent on which it powers up on the strongest form is the same, the difference is the form to work with.

And well, base gotenks really do have a feat. He didn't fight, but seeing how piccolo reacts first to the ssj kids and then to base gotenks leaves no doubt at all. He has to be stronger than them.

Oh yes, I'm not even considering that base Goten and trunks can put up a fight with 18, and she most likely wasn't suppressed since nothing implies it

Goten and Trunks go SSJ to fight 18.


Also, Metamoran was retconned to be just like Potara so it was changed. The 20Xweaker person isn't confirmed but I personally think it works. Gotenks base being greater than the boys SSJ is fair but I think it's fine if he isn't. Piccolo's reaction could be based more off of how strong Gotenks would be as an SSJ which would be greater than any SSJ2 in my book

They go ssj just to win, infact by shooting a suppressed blast the scare the shit out of 18, making suppressed ssj Goten and trunks>>>18

Plus , some pages prior, we can see mighty mask (trunks basically) hold is own against 18, while still in base. No retcon on sight for fusions, as I said the multiplier is the same in theory but changes in practical means because the form it scales from changes. Base fusion is always superior to the strongest form in common to the parts in some way, for gotenks as for gogeta in dbs.
Maybe a numerical example will do :

Base 1
Ssj 50
Base fusion 125 (2,5x strongest form)

Dbs
Base 1
Ssb 50'000
Base fusion 125'000

Same multiplier, just changes what it scales from

The reaction of piccolo obviously was on what he sees, not on what he hypotizes. That would make no sense, the reaction is on base gotenks.
Also, ssj gotenks pre rosat is confirmed being weaker than ssj2 tier in daizenshuu. There is said that gotenks surpassed Vegeta (so surpassed ssj2 in power) only after the training

I agree SSJ1 Gotenks at first is weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta at first I was just using my Post HTC numbers for him. I disagree on the 18 scenario. For me it was always apparent she was holding back on base Trunks and Goten. She only really gets serious when they go SSJ. Then after breaking their disguise she fights them both at the same time. I don't think shes leagues ahead of them, but she is stronger than them in their SSJ forms.

Again your forgetting that Metamoran used to be far weaker than Potara and now they are equal. That is a retcon. There is also no statement to confirm how Metamoran used to work. I don't know where you got the 2.5Xstrongest form idea from. I can't find that anywhere

[p-hyvo]

Goten and Trunks go SSJ to fight 18.


Also, Metamoran was retconned to be just like Potara so it was changed. The 20Xweaker person isn't confirmed but I personally think it works. Gotenks base being greater than the boys SSJ is fair but I think it's fine if he isn't. Piccolo's reaction could be based more off of how strong Gotenks would be as an SSJ which would be greater than any SSJ2 in my book

They go ssj just to win, infact by shooting a suppressed blast the scare the shit out of 18, making suppressed ssj Goten and trunks>>>18

Plus , some pages prior, we can see mighty mask (trunks basically) hold is own against 18, while still in base. No retcon on sight for fusions, as I said the multiplier is the same in theory but changes in practical means because the form it scales from changes. Base fusion is always superior to the strongest form in common to the parts in some way, for gotenks as for gogeta in dbs.
Maybe a numerical example will do :

Base 1
Ssj 50
Base fusion 125 (2,5x strongest form)

Dbs
Base 1
Ssb 50'000
Base fusion 125'000

Same multiplier, just changes what it scales from

The reaction of piccolo obviously was on what he sees, not on what he hypotizes. That would make no sense, the reaction is on base gotenks.
Also, ssj gotenks pre rosat is confirmed being weaker than ssj2 tier in daizenshuu. There is said that gotenks surpassed Vegeta (so surpassed ssj2 in power) only after the training

I agree SSJ1 Gotenks at first is weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta at first I was just using my Post HTC numbers for him. I disagree on the 18 scenario. For me it was always apparent she was holding back on base Trunks and Goten. She only really gets serious when they go SSJ. Then after breaking their disguise she fights them both at the same time. I don't think shes leagues ahead of them, but she is stronger than them in their SSJ forms.

Again your forgetting that Metamoran used to be far weaker than Potara and now they are equal. That is a retcon. There is also no statement to confirm how Metamoran used to work. I don't know where you got the 2.5Xstrongest form idea from. I can't find that anywhere

If you are talking about post rosat gotenks , then there is no way piccolo could imagine how strong gotenks would have become.

Again, nothing implies 18 was holding back and everything makes me think she wasn't. 18 wanted to win, so she had to be serious definitely.
The mtiplier I have is just an example, to make you understand.

And yes, if we want to there is a retcon but it is on potara vs metamor, nothing implies that the metamor logic had changed with the other thing.

And no, 18 definitely wasn't stronger than ssj Goten and trunks. Not in the slightest. They scare her by shooting a suppressed SUPPRESSED ssj blast, implying that ssj kids>>18

Other feats? Goten and trunks are definitely the same tier as gohan in power, and gohan is as strong as he was at the cell games following the daizenshuu.

In dbs manga, a non trained Goten (same for trunks) could briefly keep up with 3 cell jrs each, implying they are stronger than their parents at the cell games
Did I have to say that ssj cell games gohan is stronger than 18? I don't think I have, you should know.
Ssj gohan≥ssj trunks≥ssj Goten>>>18

[Mad Swami]

They go ssj just to win, infact by shooting a suppressed blast the scare the shit out of 18, making suppressed ssj Goten and trunks>>>18

Plus , some pages prior, we can see mighty mask (trunks basically) hold is own against 18, while still in base. No retcon on sight for fusions, as I said the multiplier is the same in theory but changes in practical means because the form it scales from changes. Base fusion is always superior to the strongest form in common to the parts in some way, for gotenks as for gogeta in dbs.
Maybe a numerical example will do :

Base 1
Ssj 50
Base fusion 125 (2,5x strongest form)

Dbs
Base 1
Ssb 50'000
Base fusion 125'000

Same multiplier, just changes what it scales from

The reaction of piccolo obviously was on what he sees, not on what he hypotizes. That would make no sense, the reaction is on base gotenks.
Also, ssj gotenks pre rosat is confirmed being weaker than ssj2 tier in daizenshuu. There is said that gotenks surpassed Vegeta (so surpassed ssj2 in power) only after the training

I agree SSJ1 Gotenks at first is weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta at first I was just using my Post HTC numbers for him. I disagree on the 18 scenario. For me it was always apparent she was holding back on base Trunks and Goten. She only really gets serious when they go SSJ. Then after breaking their disguise she fights them both at the same time. I don't think shes leagues ahead of them, but she is stronger than them in their SSJ forms.

Again your forgetting that Metamoran used to be far weaker than Potara and now they are equal. That is a retcon. There is also no statement to confirm how Metamoran used to work. I don't know where you got the 2.5Xstrongest form idea from. I can't find that anywhere

If you are talking about post rosat gotenks , then there is no way piccolo could imagine how strong gotenks would have become.

Again, nothing implies 18 was holding back and everything makes me think she wasn't. 18 wanted to win, so she had to be serious definitely.
The mtiplier I have is just an example, to make you understand.

And yes, if we want to there is a retcon but it is on potara vs metamor, nothing implies that the metamor logic had changed with the other thing

She wanted to win but she thought Mighty Mask was a human so probably didn't use even like 50% initially.

And oh ok I see what your saying. I don't know if anything supports multiplying the strongest form, however.

[Tectorman]

And no, 18 definitely wasn't stronger than ssj Goten and trunks. Not in the slightest. They scare her by shooting a suppressed SUPPRESSED ssj blast, implying that ssj kids>>18

I think that's the wrong conclusion to draw from that. Despite the tough persona she puts on, she has a husband and daughter that she cares about. In that scene, she has just found out that the boys both have SSJ-level power. They fire a blast downwards (i.e., it hits the planet if it misses her). Then she hears Goten's voice suggesting they bombard her (a tactic even more reckless than the previous single blast). Remember this is after she's seen Goten not be able to control his "Kamekameha" in his fight against Trunks.

In other words, she just found out that she's been living on a planet with two immature boys who have potentially been running around unchecked, playing with casual planet-buster power. Anyone with loved ones would be scared by that, even if they personally can withstand said casual planet-buster attacks.

[theherodjl]

Again your forgetting that Metamoran used to be far weaker than Potara and now they are equal. That is a retcon.

I dont think that is actually true. Gotenks & Gogeta were never seen as equals or even close in power at anytime. Gotenks needed SSJ3 to have a narrow power advantage over Super Boo while Gogeta only needed SSJ to crush Janemba, a guy on par with Boohan at the very least. The fusion dance evidently has always created quite a different result between the boys and their fathers.

[miguelnuva1]

And no, 18 definitely wasn't stronger than ssj Goten and trunks. Not in the slightest. They scare her by shooting a suppressed SUPPRESSED ssj blast, implying that ssj kids>>18

I think that's the wrong conclusion to draw from that. Despite the tough persona she puts on, she has a husband and daughter that she cares about. In that scene, she has just found out that the boys both have SSJ-level power. They fire a blast downwards (i.e., it hits the planet if it misses her). Then she hears Goten's voice suggesting they bombard her (a tactic even more reckless than the previous single blast). Remember this is after she's seen Goten not be able to control his "Kamekameha" in his fight against Trunks.

In other words, she just found out that she's been living on a planet with two immature boys who have potentially been running around unchecked, playing with casual planet-buster power. Anyone with loved ones would be scared by that, even if they personally can withstand said casual planet-buster attacks.

Goten and Trunks have feats and statements that out them at Cell games Ssj Vegeta and Trunks level.

[p-hyvo]

And no, 18 definitely wasn't stronger than ssj Goten and trunks. Not in the slightest. They scare her by shooting a suppressed SUPPRESSED ssj blast, implying that ssj kids>>18

I think that's the wrong conclusion to draw from that. Despite the tough persona she puts on, she has a husband and daughter that she cares about. In that scene, she has just found out that the boys both have SSJ-level power. They fire a blast downwards (i.e., it hits the planet if it misses her). Then she hears Goten's voice suggesting they bombard her (a tactic even more reckless than the previous single blast). Remember this is after she's seen Goten not be able to control his "Kamekameha" in his fight against Trunks.

In other words, she just found out that she's been living on a planet with two immature boys who have potentially been running around unchecked, playing with casual planet-buster power. Anyone with loved ones would be scared by that, even if they personally can withstand said casual planet-buster attacks.

Goten and Trunks have feats and statements that out them at Cell games Ssj Vegeta and Trunks level.

Even more tbh, cell games Vegeta can't keep up with 3 cell jrs at the same time

[DBZ Macky]

Let's not forget about this

By virtue of being Goku's son, Goten posses battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan. On top of being able to unleash a startling amount of power in even his normal state, he can easily transform into a Super Saiyan. Furthermore, he merges with Trunks through a technique known as Fusion.

Even if you don't want to take the "least bit inferior" part literally, it still implies that the kids are not much weaker than the adult Saiyans.

Even more tbh, cell games Vegeta can't keep up with 3 cell jrs at the same time

This too, if the DBS Manga shows Goten and Trunks being able to keep up with the Cell Jrs. on 17's island. We didn't get to see much of Goten and Trunks (separate from Gotenks) in the original DBZ era, so this kind of sheds more light at how strong they were supposed to be.

With that being said, it makes sense that Goku & Vegeta's hypothetical metamoran fusion would be stronger than Gotenks but not by a very wide margin, and end up being on the same level Buutenks if not slightly inferior according to Buu's estimates.

[dbgtFO]

With that being said, it makes sense that Goku & Vegeta's hypothetical metamoran fusion would be stronger than Gotenks but not by a very wide margin, and end up being on the same level Buutenks if not slightly inferior according to Buu's estimates.

I think it should be a considerable margin, since they have access to power(SS2 & 3) that the kids don't.

It seems that ever since DBS: Broly, a lot of people jumped onboard the idea that Fusion scales to the characters' strongest forms and so in the case of Gotenks vs Gogeta, we end up with Gotenks going as far as SS3, despite neither of his parts having gone beyond SS, while Gogeta should be much greater than that, since his parts have far more power.

Buu's calculations would thus be wrong, because even though he has seen the full power of Goku and Vegeta, he hasn't seen the full power of the kids, so his calculations of Gogeta would be based on a faulty understanding on how it worked for the kids and thus wrong.
Basically like this:

SS1 Goten/Trunks: 3
SS1 Vegeta/Goku: 5
SS2 Vegeta/Goku: 10
SS3 Goku: 40
SS1 Gotenks: 50
SS2 Gotenks: 75
SS3 Gotenks: 150(the weakest's max multiplied by 50).

SS1 Gogeta: 135
SS2 Gogeta: 270
SS3 Gogeta: 540(Vegeta's max multiplied by 50 with Goku's max added on top, since Vegeta is that much weaker).

[DBZ Macky]

Buu's calculations would thus be wrong

Yep definitely. We get to know this later on when the Elder Kai says that Goku and Vegeta's fusion is unnaturally strong for some reason, citing it as a consequence of them being rivals.

It seems that ever since DBS: Broly, a lot of people jumped onboard the idea that Fusion scales to the characters' strongest forms

It's a reasonable assumption to make, but it's just head-canon. This idea would imply that a hypothetical Goku and Satan fusion would be stronger than SS3 Goku which goes completely against the narrative. Goku wouldn't need to worry about fusing with Satan making him weaker if he knew about the power of fusion, and even the Elder Kai probably would've told him something if just fusing with a random guy would make him over 400x stronger.

Basically like this:

SS1 Goten/Trunks: 3
SS1 Vegeta/Goku: 5
SS2 Vegeta/Goku: 10
SS3 Goku: 40
SS1 Gotenks: 50
SS2 Gotenks: 75
SS3 Gotenks: 150(the weakest's max multiplied by 50).

SS1 Gogeta: 135
SS2 Gogeta: 270
SS3 Gogeta: 540(Vegeta's max multiplied by 50 with Goku's max added on top, since Vegeta is that much weaker).

I don't completely understand but you're saying that the Super Saiyan multipliers work differently for the fusions, right?
It's another reasonable assumption to make when the fusions shown in the series already seem so strong in Base, but it is again just head-canon and not supported by any official material.

[dbgtFO]

It's a reasonable assumption to make, but it's just head-canon. This idea would imply that a hypothetical Goku and Satan fusion would be stronger than SS3 Goku which goes completely against the narrative. Goku wouldn't need to worry about fusing with Satan making him weaker if he knew about the power of fusion, and even the Elder Kai probably would've told him something if just fusing with a random guy would make him over 400x stronger.

I imagine the boost would be lesser, if the two characters merging are too far apart in power, like I showed with the Gogeta example later, where it first applied to Vegeta's max and then Goku's was added on top to get the result.
With the power difference between Goku and Mr. Satan maybe it would be even worse.

I don't completely understand but you're saying that the Super Saiyan multipliers work differently for the fusions, right?
It's another reasonable assumption to make when the fusions shown in the series already seem so strong in Base, but it is again just head-canon and not supported by any official material.

Yes and that goes without saying. Just a little something I prefer for the Fusions.